Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 6.3.12

Devotee: [introducing recording] On arrival in Gorakhpur, on the morning of the 3rd January [sic] '71, Śrīla Prabhupāda gives Bhāgavatam lecture.

Prabhupāda:

... uvāca paro mad-anyo jagatas tasthuṣaś ca otaṁ protaṁ paṭavad yatra viśvam yad-aṁśato 'sya sthiti-janma-nāśā nasy otavad yasya vaśe ca lokaḥ [SB 6.3.12]

[Yamarāja said: My dear servants, you have accepted me as the Supreme, but factually I am not. Above me, and above all the other demigods, including Indra and Candra, is the one supreme master and controller. The partial manifestations of His personality are Brahmā, Viṣṅu and Śiva, who are in charge of the creation, maintenance and annihilation of this universe. He is like the two threads that form the length and breadth of a woven cloth. The entire world is controlled by Him just as a bull is controlled by a rope in its nose.]

Yamarāja is describing about his superior, master. First qualification is that Yamarāja is the controller of an insignificant portion of the universal affairs. Just like there are departmental director, but the master of Yamarāja, He is controller of creation, maintenance and annihilation.

Otaṁ protaṁ paṭavad yatra viśvam—this cosmic manifestation is just like thread woven this side and that side. Both sides there are threads, just as cloth there are two sides; both sides length and width, both sides there are the threads. Similarly, the whole cosmic manifestation, lengthwise and widthwise, the energy of the supreme master is working.

In the Bhagavad-gītā also it is said, sūtre maṅi-gaṅā iva [Bg 7.7].

[O conqueror of wealth [Arjuna], there is no Truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread.]

Just like in one thread there are beads or pearls woven, so Kṛṣṅa, or the Absolute Truth, is just like the thread, and everything, all planets or all globes, all universes, they are woven in a thread, and that thread is Kṛṣṅa. Kṛṣṅa also says, ekāṁśena sthito jagat [Bg 10.42]:

[But what need is there, Arjuna, for all this detailed knowledge? With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entire universe.]

in one-fourth energy, the whole material creation is resting. Similarly, there is another statement in the Bhagavad-gītā:

aham sarvaṁ idaṁ tatam jagad avyakta-mūrtinā [Bg 9.4]

[By Me, in My unmanifested form, this entire universe is pervaded. All beings are in Me, but I am not in them.]

"I am spread by My energy, which is taken as impersonal Brahman." Aham sarvaṁ idaṁ tatam. Tatam means "spread." Whatever we are seeing, that is spreading of the energy of the Supreme Lord. Just like this heat He is spreading. Heat expands. There are waves of heat and light, as you know, but the original source of the wave, I think we have given the picture, the wave of light is coming from the Vṛndāvana, Goloka Vṛndāvana. That is an idea. There are different waves.

So that wave is spreading all over. And that is confirmed in the Vedic literature: sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma [Chāndogya Upaniṣad 3.14.1].

[Everything, both matter and spirit, is non-different from the Supreme Personality of Godhead who is the Supreme Brahman.]

Īśāvāsyam idam sarvaṁ [Īśo mantra 1].

[Everything animate or inanimate that is within the universe is controlled and owned by the Lord. One should therefore accept only those things necessary for himself, which are set aside as his quota, and one should not accept other things, knowing well to whom they belong.]

His energy is spread everywhere, parasya brahmaṅaḥ śaktih sarvedam akhilaṁ jagat [Viṣṅu Purāṅa 1.22.53].

[Just as the illumination of a fire, which is situated in one place, is spread all over, the energies of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Para-brahman, are spread all over this universe.]

That is in Viṣṅu Purāṅa. That is impersonal. The energy which is emanating from the Supreme Person, that is impersonal Brahman. Not that there is no more, I mean, superior than the Brahman. That is a mistake of the Māyāvādī school. They take that expansion of the brahma-jyoti is final. But that is not final.

We get information from Bhagavad-gītā that brahmaṅo hi pratiṣṭhāham [Bg 14.27].

[And I am the basis of the impersonal Brahman, which is the constitutional position of ultimate happiness, and which is immortal, imperishable and eternal.]

This impersonal Brahman effulgence, which is spread everywhere, mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ [Bg 9.4],

[By Me, in My unmanifested form, this entire universe is pervaded. All beings are in Me, but I am not in them.]

although Kṛṣṅa says mayā, "by Me," "by Me" does not mean that…, brahma-jyoti means that Kṛṣṅa has become vanquished; there is no more Kṛṣṅa. The Māyāvādī philosophy is based on this understanding, that if the Absolute Truth is spread everywhere, so there is no question of the Absolute Truth becoming a person. They cannot adjust like that, although Kṛṣṅa personally says that brahmaṅo aham pratiṣṭhāham [Bg 14.27]: "I am the source, or the strength, or the platform from which the brahma-jyoti is emanating."

It is not very difficult to understand. This fire is here, localized, but the heat is expanding, expands—parasya brāhmaṅaḥ śakti [Viṣṅu Purāṅa 1.22.53].

[Just as the illumination of a fire, which is situated in one place, is spread all over, the energies of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Para-brahman, are spread all over this universe.]

So although Kṛṣṅa's energies are spread everywhere, this does not mean Kṛṣṅa has become imperson. Why He should be imperson? We can see exactly in our daily experience that from sun globe immense light and heat is coming, and that is maintaining this universe.

This is only a portion of the illuminating energy of Kṛṣṅa, the sūryayoḥ. In Bhagavad-gītā it is said, prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ [Bg 7.8].

[O son of Kuntī [Arjuna], I am the taste of water, the light of the sun and the moon, the syllable om in the Vedic mantras; I am the sound in ether and ability in man.]

Prabhāsmi. Prabhā means the effulgence, the light. Śaśi-sūryayoḥ. It is not that… So śaśi means moon, and sūryayoḥ means the sun. They are not independently spreading this heat and light. They are simply reflection, reflection of the original of brahma-jyoti.

Therefore Yamarāja says that otaṁ protaṁ paṭavad yatra viśvam. Viśvam. What is this viśvam? The whole cosmic manifestation. There are living entities, and there are inert matter. Just like we are sitting here, so we are living entities, and this house is inert matter. So combined together we have created this city or this home, the creation of two energies. One energy is matter; another energy, living force. But both of them are energies of the Supreme Lord.

That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā also: bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ buddhir mano eva ca prakṛtir me aṣṭadhā [Bg 7.4],

[Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego—altogether these eight comprise My separated material energies.]

prakṛtir me bhinnā aṣṭadhā. These five elements—mind, intelligence and ego, gross and subtle matter—they are ingredients. But beyond this material energy there is another energy, Kṛṣṅa says:

jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat [Bg 7.5]

[Besides this inferior nature, O mighty-armed Arjuna, there is a superior energy of Mine, which are all living entities who are struggling with material nature and are sustaining the universe.]

The jīva-bhūtāṁ, the living entities, they are utilizing this energy, but both of them energy. One of the energy appears to be creative, creating, and another energy is ingredient. You cannot create anything without ingredient. The material energies are ingredient, upādāna, upādāna. Upādāna-kāraṅa nimitta-kāraṅa [Cc Ādi 6.16].

[Lord Viṣṅu Himself is the efficient [nimitta] cause of the material world, and Nārāyaṅa in the form of Śrī Advaita is the material cause [upādāna]]

So both these energies are working. The example is given here just like in a cloth there are set up of two kinds of thread, one lengthwise and widthwise. Similarly, these two energies—material energy and the spiritual energy—are working the whole creation, otaṁ protaṁ. The one side, the lengthwise one thread, and widthwise one thread. So these two energies, they are working: otaṁ protaṁ paṭavad yatra viśvam. And Kṛṣṅa also confirms this:

mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ jagad avyakta-mūrtinā [Bg 9.4]

[By Me, in My unmanifested form, this entire universe is pervaded. All beings are in Me, but I am not in them.]

Yad-aṁśato 'sya sthiti-janma-nāśā [SB 6.3.12].

[Yamarāja said: My dear servants, you have accepted me as the Supreme, but factually I am not. Above me, and above all the other demigods, including Indra and Candra, is the one supreme master and controller. The partial manifestations of His personality are Brahmā, Viṣṅu and Śiva, who are in charge of the creation, maintenance and annihilation of this universe. He is like the two threads that form the length and breadth of a woven cloth. The entire world is controlled by Him just as a bull is controlled by a rope in its nose.]

Sthiti-janma-nāśā. Just like there are different departments of government on the whole—the legislative department and the executive department, so similarly, in the kingdom of God, or Kṛṣṅa, there are different departments, and there are different departmental directors also. Here it is said that yad-aṁśato 'sya sthiti-janma-nāśā. Sthiti means maintenance, and janma means production. Sthiti-janma. And nāśā means annihilation.

Everything in this material world, these three things are visible. Anything is produced, anything we take, it is produced at a certain time, then it is maintained for a certain time, and then it becomes annihilated again. Your body, my body, this world, this material world, this house—anything we take material. But there are controller or director for these department. The director and controller of creation, production, is Brahmā, and the director of maintenance is Viṣṅu, and the annihilator is Lord Śiva—Brahmā, Viṣṅu, Maheśa.

But these directors, they are not absolute; they are part and parcel. Just as we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṅa, similarly the controller of material affairs, or the demigods, they are also part and parcel. They are not absolute. Yad-aṁśatah [SB 6.3.12].

[Yamarāja said: My dear servants, you have accepted me as the Supreme, but factually I am not. Above me, and above all the other demigods, including Indra and Candra, is the one supreme master and controller. The partial manifestations of His personality are Brahmā, Viṣṅu and Śiva, who are in charge of the creation, maintenance and annihilation of this universe. He is like the two threads that form the length and breadth of a woven cloth. The entire world is controlled by Him just as a bull is controlled by a rope in its nose.]

They are simply… You can become Brahmā if you are so qualified. You can be posted as Brahmā, you can be posted as Śiva, but you cannot be posted as Viṣṅu. But you can derive power from Viṣṅu, and that is called śaktyāveśa-avatāra—dedicated power.

So Yamarāja says that yad-aṁśata asya. Asya means these big shots of this universe, Brahmā, Viṣṅu and Maheśvara. So they are different directors of three departments. And nasy otavad yasya vaśe ca lokaḥ. Nasy otavad—just like the bulls, there is a rope within their nose, and the cart-man simply moves his finger with that rope, and the bull turns this way, that way, goes straight, stops. Nasy otavad.

Similarly, we are also nasy otavad yasya vaśe ca lokaḥ. Lokaḥ means all these universes, planets or living entities, they are simply moving under the indication by the Supreme Lord. So, "Go this way," we have to go this way. He says, "This way," you have to go this way. Not directly, but as… He has nothing to do, but under His direction, na tasya kāryaṁ karaṅaṁ ca vidyate [Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 6.8].

[The Supreme Lord has nothing to do. Nothing is equal to Him or greater than Him. He acts in different phases by manifesting His parts and parcels, which are all simultaneously differently situated by His unlimited, variegated potencies. Each potency acts quite naturally in sequences, providing Him full knowledge, power and pastimes.]

A very rich man, he is sitting down in one place, but by his direction big, big factories are going on. The manager of the factory, the workers in the factory, they are all working day and night under the direction of that proprietor. If it is possible in a small scale, so similarly the whole universal affairs are going on under the direction of the Supreme Lord—not that they are independently working.

Nothing can do independently. And His direction is so perfect that it is admitted in the Vedas:

parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca [Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 6.8]

I have several times explained that His direction is so perfect, and the energy by which He is working is so perfect, that it looks automatically being done. The so-called scientists with poor fund of knowledge, they are giving importance to the energy by saying these things are appearing automatically. But they do not enquire that behind the energy there is energetic.

Just like this electric current, but behind all these electric activities, there is a powerhouse and there is an executive engineer. He is producing the electric energy from the powerhouse and diffusing it all over the city. But one who does not know, he thinks the light is powered automatically, the fan is going automatically. No.

That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, mayādhyakṣeṅa prakṛtiḥ [Bg 9.10].

[This material nature is working under My direction, O son of Kuntī, and it is producing all moving and unmoving beings. By its rule this manifestation is created and annihilated again and again.]

The materialistic scientists are giving importance to the movements, wonderful movements, of this material nature. Vairangha-śakti[?]. The material nature is going on, but there must be one śakti-mana who is possession of this, who is possessing this energy.

So it is foolish to know that things are going on automatically by natural activities. But that is not a fact. Here it is said that yasya vaśe ca lokaḥ. The example is given just like a bull. With the rope the cart-man drives according to his own wish. This is also explained in the Bhagavad-gītā:

mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo [Bg 15.15]

[I am seated in everyone's heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness. By all the Vedas am I to be known; indeed I am the compiler of Vedānta, and I am the knower of the Vedas.]

The Lord is as Paramātmā. He is sitting in everyone's heart, and as you wanted to do, you forget.

Suppose a person, in his previous life, he wanted to be as powerful as a tiger. According to Muslim philosophy, they want strength like tiger. [indistinct] People think like that: "If I become so powerful as a tiger, then I can attack any less powerful animal and I feed on it."

But nature is so cruel, the tiger, the most of the days he will starve. Although he has got strength, he cannot get daily a prey. No. This is not possible. When he is too hungry, Kṛṣṅa gives a chance to prey.

So He gives. "I wanted to be such and such," He gives me intelligence, He is so merciful. If you want to be as powerful as tiger, if you want to be a predominant businessman, He gives, ye yathā māṁ prapadyante [Bg 4.11].

[All of them—as they surrender unto Me—I reward accordingly. Everyone follows My path in all respects, O son of Pṛthā.]

He gives opportunity, and He gives also chance to His devotee to go back to home, back to Godhead. He is giving chance to everyone. If you want to remain here, yānti bhūtejyā bhūtāni [Bg 9.25].

[Those who worship the demigods will take birth among the demigods; those who worship ghosts and spirits will take birth among such beings; those who worship ancestors go to the ancestors; and those who worship Me will live with Me.]

If you want to remain in this material world and do hard work for sense gratification, that chance will be given to you. But if you want to go back to home, back to Godhead, that chance also will be given to you.

Now, it is my selection. When they are entangled in this material activities, they accuse Kṛṣṅa: "Why God has created somebody this, somebody that?" No. God has not created; we have created. We wanted to become like this, so God has given us. Kṛṣṅa has given us this chance, "All right, you become this." So it is my desire. He is called kalpataru—desire tree. Therefore we have to change our desire or purify our desire. That is Kṛṣṅa consciousness. That is Kṛṣṅa consciousness. The desire is mine.

So the Māyāvādī philosopher says that "You become desireless," vāsanā-śūnyaṁ. That is not possible. You cannot be desireless, because you are living entity. If your desire is finished, then you are also finished. How you can live? So this desire must be there, but you have to desire…, you have to purify your desire. That's all. That is Kṛṣṅa consciousness.

The materialist, or the conditioned soul, is desiring every moment—desiring for sense gratification. The same desire will continue; you have to change the course only, that you have to desire to gratify the sense of Kṛṣṅa. In our conditioned stage we desire to fulfill our senses, and in liberated stage we desire to fulfill..., to satisfy Kṛṣṅa's senses. The sense gratification is there. Desiring of sense gratification is there. In the material stage we simply desire to gratify our senses, and the liberated stage we try to…, we desire to fulfill the sense gratification of Kṛṣṅa.

That is the instruction from Bhagavad-gītā. Arjuna wanted in the beginning to fulfill his sense gratification. He thought that "I shall be happy if my relatives are not killed." That is natural. If somebody comes, "I would just like to kill your son immediately," would you like to abide by this order? "Oh, why should I kill?"

But Arjuna, he desired, or he agreed, to fulfill the sense gratification of Kṛṣṅa. Kṛṣṅa says that "I am desiring this fight. If you don't fight, then still all these men who have assembled here, they will be killed. That plan is already made." That is Kṛṣṅa's desire.

In the Eleventh Chapter He says that, " I have come, I have appeared to destroy all this." The destruction,

paritrāṅāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām [Bg 4.8]

[In order to deliver the pious and to annihilate the miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of religion, I advent Myself millennium after millennium.]

So he wanted to kill all the duṣkṛtām, and the Kurukṣetra fight was planned by Him. He wanted actually to destroy, because that was His business, paritrāṅāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām. And Arjuna, because he was His very, I mean to say, sincere friend and devotee, Kṛṣṅa wanted to give him the credit, that "You fight, because personally I am not fighting. You fight, and the plan is already there that these people who have assembled in this battlefield, they will be all killed, and you will get the credit." That's all.

Just like this preaching is going on in the Western countries, all over the world. This is desire of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That is planned already by Him. So we are simply a little helping, that's all. So our devotional service means that whatever Kṛṣṅa, or God, desires, we should try to co-operate with Him. That is our perfection. You cannot do anything. He is doing everything. But if you simply co-operate with your desire, that is called devotional service.

So there is no question of becoming desireless. That is not possible also. That is another fault. By force you cannot stop. Just like a child, you cannot forcibly stop him, his activity, but if he is naughty, then you have to train him for being educated, and when he is educated he comes out a very nice scholar. Similarly, the people who have become nationalized, if proper chance is given to them, they will come out very nice devotees. That is the technology of spiritual science.

So our Kṛṣṅa consciousness movement is meant for that purpose, that people are desiring in so many ways for sense gratification—that desire has to be purified and employed in the matter of gratifying the senses of Kṛṣṅa. The Māyāvādī philosophers, they cannot understand this, because they think of the Absolute Truth without any senses. As soon as there is sensual activities, they think of, "It is māyā." But they do not…, they cannot conceive that in the Absolute Truth there are senses and sense gratification. No. That they do not know.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṅa.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Prabhupāda, you said that if the Naxalites are turned, they can become very nice devotees. So what qualification do they particularly have, which would make them good devotees?

Prabhupāda: Simply they have to come and hear us, that's all. If they kindly come and hear us, and follow just like you have done, everything will be saved. We have to implore that "Please come and sit down for some time and have some nice kīrtana, and hear some philosophical talks, and take Kṛṣṅa's prasādam, and go home." And then, in this way the whole world. [laughs] If they agree to come, then their whole thing is changed: no more destruction; only construction. That we have to do; that we have to implore. Dante nidhāya tṛṅakam—that is the teaching.

dante nidhāya tṛṅakaṁ padayor nipatya kāku-śatam kṛtvā ca ahaṁ bravīmi he sādhavaḥ sakalam eva vihāya dūrād caitanya-candra-caraṅe kurutānurāgam [Caitanya-candrāmṛta]

[Taking a straw between my teeth and falling at your feet a hundred times, I humbly submit, "O great personality, please give up all mundane knowledge that you have learned and just submit yourself at the lotus feet of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu."]

This is written by Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī. "Taking a blade of grass in my mouth," dante nidhāya tṛṅakaṁ, padayor nipatya, "and falling down on your feet, and with folded hands," dante nidhāya tṛṅakaṁ, padayor nipatya kāku-śatam, "and flattering you like anything, 'You are so nice, you are so great, you are so…,' " kāku-śatam kṛtvā, " 'I am just submitting one thing.' "

What is that? He sādhavaḥ, " 'You are very nice, you are very honest gentleman, sādhavaḥ,' " sakalam eva vihāya, " 'Whatever you have learned, please set aside for a moment.' " Caitanya-candra-caraṅe kurutānurāgam, " 'Just turn your mind to the teachings of Lord Caitanya.' "

This is our process. We don't say, "Whatever you are doing, this is all nonsense, this is all…" Simply try to make him hear, and give them the right knowledge. [indistinct] Because the medicine and the diet…, if there is disease, sickness, if you give him the proper medicine and proper diet, he will be cured. That's all. There is no doubt. The medicine is the harināma, and diet is kṛṣṅa-prasādam.

So you arrange for these two things, and the whole world will change. That is our movement. Give them this medicine, chant Hare Kṛṣṅa mantra, and give them diet, nice kṛṣṅa-prasādam—the same method by which you were captured. [laughs]

[laughter] Is it not? What I did? I did not give you any bribe or any money taken from the Indian exchequer, but I gave you this little prasādam, one capātī, and chant Hare Kṛṣṅa. [laughs] That is all.

Revatīnandana: Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: You talked about the material nature, the inferior energy of the Lord, and we have become contaminated or entangled with this māyā, and then by devotional service we can purify ourselves from that entanglement. What is the process by which devotional service…?

Prabhupāda: It is the same process that we are following: chanting.

Revatīnandana: Is materialism destroyed, or converted to …

Prabhupāda: No. Material energy is created by God.

Revatīnandana: But in our devotional service, what happens to the material energy?

Prabhupāda: Material energy, if you become a devotee, there is no more material energy—spiritual energy.

Revatīnandana: But supposing…

Prabhupāda: Just like I told you that "Chant." People are singing. They are chanting so many things. Somebody is singing janda uncha rahe hamara. That is also singing, you see. But the same singing propensity, if you turn into "Hare Kṛṣṅa," that is spiritual. There are so many slogans, "jindabad jindabad jindabad," going on. You see? This is material. And soon as chant, the same energy turns into spiritual.

Actually, viṣṅu-śakti parā proktaḥ: whatever energy is emanating, coming… Just like the energy from the sun globe, it is simply heat and light. Similarly, the energy, flow of energy, which is emanating from God, that is all spiritual. In the same way, just like when the sun shines, there is generation of clouds. The cloud is also manufactured by the sunshine, but the effect is that when there is cloud, you cannot see the sun. Similarly, material energy is also creation of God, but when you are in the material energy, you cannot understand God. That's all.

Material energy is also creation of God, just exactly the cloud is creation of sunshine. But one who is within the cloud, the cloud cannot cover the sun. The Māyāvādī philosopher, they say that māyā has covered the Supreme. No. The Supreme cannot be covered. The particles of the Supreme, the living entities, who are small particles of the…, they are covered. Just exactly like the sun: the cloud cannot cover the sun, but cloud can cover my eyes.

So if you remove this covering, then you see God immediately. And that is the process of religion.

bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ [Bg 18.55]

[One can understand the Supreme Personality as He is only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of the Supreme Lord by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God.]

That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Simply by devotional service one can understand what is the nature of God. So you have to practice it, and our Kṛṣṅa consciousness movement is meant for that purpose. We are engaging people to practice how this cloud will be moved, and you will be able to see the Supreme.

premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti [Bs 5.38]

[I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who is Śyāmasundara, Kṛṣṅa Himself with inconceivable innumerable attributes, whom the pure devotees see in their heart of hearts with the eye of devotion tinged with the salve of love.]

Those who have developed that love of God by this devotional service, they always see Kṛṣṅa. Not a single moment is without seeing Kṛṣṅa. But those who are in the material darkness, they are doubting. They say that "God is dead," "There is no God," "Can you show me God?" This is all.

So this is a diseased condition. Just like a man haunted with ghost, he cannot see his father face to face. He sometimes rebukes his father. He will attack. "Who are you? When are you coming, my son? If you are a madman or some such thing?" You see? So this is the condition of madness. When one cannot understand God, then one should know this is condition of madness, ghostly-haunted.

piśācī pāile yena mati-cchanna haya māyā-grasta jīvera haya se bhāva udaya [Prema-vivarta 1]

[When a living entity is conditioned by material nature, he is exactly like a person haunted by a ghost.]

That so long we are godless, we are without Kṛṣṅa consciousness, we should know that this is not our healthy condition; this is diseased condition. So we have to cure the disease. That is this movement, Kṛṣṅa consciousness movement. We have to cure the disease of godlessness.

Revatīnandana: [indistinct] talking about the disease; then we can give an injection, and that will cure the disease. And we know that injection will cure the disease by destroying the germs that are causing the disease.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So this is injection, peaceful injection.

Revatīnandana: But by devotional service are we destroying material nature?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our program.

Guest [Indian man]: Why at all God has created the material energy?

Prabhupāda: Because you wanted it.

Guest: Just you were talking that [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: No. Why government creates the prison house? What is the reason? Can you not answer it? Why the government constructs a prison house? Why?

Guest: Some men are [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: Yes. So does it means that government has created this prison house to make somebody criminal? Does the government desire like that? So why you become criminal and go to the prison house? Does government says, the university says, that you become criminal and go to the prison house? Why you go? So because you want to go, therefore the prison house is created. Similarly, because you want to enjoy, because you want to enjoy your senses, therefore this material world.

Because in the spiritual world there is no enjoyment of your senses, there is simply Kṛṣṅa's senses. You cannot do that. Therefore, "You want? All right." Kṛṣṅa says, "All right, you enjoy your senses here. You become Brahmā, and a stool worm also, according to your karma."

So this is Kṛṣṅa's kindness. You wanted to enjoy, and don't you see in the material world, all the people are simply fighting one another simply for sense enjoyment? Everyone wants wife. What is this Naxalite movement? "This big men, this rich men, they are enjoying so much. Why? Kill them; we shall enjoy." The enjoying spirit is there, not serving spirit. Both the capitalists and the laborer, the spirit is enjoyment. Only thing is, I am saying, "Why you shall enjoy?" and you are saying "Why you shall enjoy?" That is our fight.

Guest (2): But in this country we are at a place…

Prabhupāda: In this country or that country, no—we are talking of generally, not this country or that country. This is the spirit of material existence, that you want to enjoy, I want to enjoy—there must be fight. And as soon as we know that we are not enjoyer—our constitutional position is to serve Kṛṣṅa for His enjoyment—then is enjoyment. And so long you think, "I shall be enjoyer," and I think, "I shall be enjoyer," you may be some party, I may be a party, there will be fight. The fight is on the platform of personal sense enjoyment, which is not meant.

We are… Now suppose you are nationalized party and I am some other party. So you are also serving your leader, and I am also serving. Just like when two nations fight, they fight under the leadership of some gentleman. They consider it very nice. Both the leaders—that Churchill accusing Gandhi, and Gandhi accusing Churchill, and the followers of Churchill and followers of Gandhi fight. But they do not know why you are fighting. In the estimation of Englishmen, Churchill is very great, and estimation of Indians, Gandhi is very great. And the estimation of Churchill, Gandhi is the rascal, and estimation of Gandhi, Churchill is rascal.

So now we have to decide who is actually great and who is actually rascal. This fighting is going on. Everyone will say, "My leader is very nice; the other leader is rascal." But actually who is rascal and who is nice? So our śāstra says,

harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṅā manorathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ [SB 5.18.12]

[All the demigods and their exalted qualities, such as religion, knowledge and renunciation, become manifest in the body of one who has developed unalloyed devotion for the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Vāsudeva. On the other hand, a person devoid of devotional service and engaged in material activities has no good qualities. Even if he is adept at the practice of mystic yoga or the honest endeavor of maintaining his family and relatives, he must be driven by his own mental speculations and must engage in the service of the Lord's external energy. How can there be any good qualities in such a man?]

Harāv abhaktasya. The one who is not devotee of Kṛṣṅa, he has no good qualification. Why? Because they are moving on mental platform: "I shall enjoy." But he is not enjoyer. Any one of us, are we enjoyer actually? We are not enjoyer; we are servant. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu's philosophy is jīvera 'svarūpa' haya—'nitya kṛṣṅa -dāsa' [Cc Madhya 20.108].

[It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Kṛṣṅa because he is the marginal energy of Kṛṣṅa and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Kṛṣṅa has three varieties of energy.]

The actual constitutional position of all living entities are that they are eternal servants of God, and when one realizes this actual fact, there is self-realization.

Actually you are all serving. Even if you become member of a certain type, we are serving the orders of the leader. The service position is the honor, but because the service is misplaced, all of them, all of us are fighting and becoming unhappy. The service is continuing, either you serve your country or a certain type of leader or certain type of ideology, the service—you have to render service. That you do not know. That I am trying to be master by serving something, so where I am master?

So one who has got sense, he agrees, "Ah, why not serve God? I am not become happy by serving."

kāmādīnāṁ kati na katidhā pālitā durnideśās teṣāṁ mayi na karuṅā jātā na trapā nopaśāntiḥ [Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 3.2.35 quoted in Cc. Madhya 22.16]

[O my Lord, there is no limit to the unwanted orders of lusty desires. Although I have rendered them so much service, they have not shown any mercy to me. I have not been ashamed to serve them, nor have I even desired to give them up. O my Lord, O head of the Yadu dynasty, recently, however, my intelligence has been awakened, and now I am giving them up. Due to transcendental intelligence, I now refuse to obey the unwanted orders of these desires, and I now come to You to surrender myself at Your fearless lotus feet. Kindly engage me in Your personal service and save me.]

Just like Gandhi served his country so nicely, and the result was that he was killed by his countrymen. Where is the perfection of the service? Even Gandhi could not do it. The most sincere person, mahātmā, but he was killed. Is it not a fact? So who can give perfection in this country than Mahatma Gandhi, and why he was killed? What is the answer of this question?

That means in this material world there cannot be any perfect service. Perfect service can be done only when you serve God, Kṛṣṅa. That is perfect service. Without Kṛṣṅa, any service, any welfare activities you do, that is imperfect. That is imperfect. That is māyā. As soon as..., as long as... I am imperfect, but still I am attached to such kind of envious men. That is called māyā. Māyā means you are thinking that you will be happy in this way, but you will never be. You will never be.

Andhā yathāndhair… Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṅuṁ. They do not know where is their self-interest lies. Na te viduḥ, they do not know. Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ. They are thinking durāśayā. Durāśayā means hopeless, hope against hope. They are trying to be materially happy, and they will never be. Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ—attracted by the external energy.

andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ [SB 7.5.31]

[Persons who are strongly entrapped by the consciousness of enjoying material life, and who have therefore accepted as their leader or guru a similar blind man attached to external sense objects, cannot understand that the goal of life is to return home, back to Godhead, and engage in the service of Lord Viṣṅu. As blind men guided by another blind man miss the right path and fall into a ditch, materially attached men led by another materially attached man are bound by the ropes of fruitive labor, which are made of very strong cords, and they continue again and again in materialistic life, suffering the threefold miseries.]

Just like one leader is leading many others. One leader, a blind leader, is leading many other blind men. So what will be the result? Is it possible for a blind man to lead? No. He is himself blind; how he can lead other blind men? 'Pīśa-tantryām baddhāḥ, both of them are conditioned by the laws of nature. And Kṛṣṅa says that,

mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te [Bg 7.14]

[This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it.]

"Anyone who surrenders unto Me, he becomes freed from the influence of this māyā, illusion." Illusion means I am servant, but I am serving a wrong person or a wrong cause. I will never be happy. To serve the right cause, right person, then you will be happy. Is that clear now? [laughs] Hare Kṛṣṅa. So long we are here, you come; we shall discuss all these points.

[break] [conversation after lecture]

They have got some opinion. They have some great gathering, some follower. Why not this maṭha? Nor they are behaving, Vivekananda's head. So why they condemn it? Why not… This is also maṭha, another maṭha.

Guest: [indistinct] [break]

Prabhupāda: …the maṭha is Kṛṣṅa's maṭha—sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṅam [Bg 18.66].

[Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear.]

That is maṭha. All maṭha are bogus. So we are spreading this Kṛṣṅa consciousness all over the world, and they are being accepted. They did not know what Kṛṣṅa, so we had to go. That was [indistinct] real maṭha, which is accepted by everyone. [Hindi]

Devotee: [indistinct comment to tape] [end]