Room Conversation

Revatīnandana: ...then why is any one activity of Kṛṣṅa consciousness better than another one? Why is any one way of serving Kṛṣṅa better than another? For example, the chanting of the sixteen rounds. Suppose that you've gone twenty-three hours of the day serving Kṛṣṅa in one way or another, and the last hour there is opportunity to finish your rounds and also an opportunity to make a Life Member. So instead of chanting your sixteen rounds...

Prabhupāda: But you cannot create your concoction. You have to abide by the orders of Kṛṣṅa.

Revatīnandana: Then why, why would...

Prabhupāda: There is no question of "why." It is the order of Kṛṣṅa's representative. You have to abide by that. You cannot say, "Why?" Then you are not fully surrendered, as soon as you say, "Why?" Surrender means there is no "Why?" It is ordered; it has to be done. That's all. As soon as there is "Why?", there is no surrender.

The basic principle is misguided. We have to follow. Just like we have got tilaka. If you say, "Why this tilaka?" there is no question of "Why?" Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthā [Cc Madhya 17.186].

[Dry arguments are inconclusive. A great personality whose opinion does not differ from others is not considered a great sage. Simply by studying the Vedas, which are variegated, one cannot come to the right path by which religious principles are understood. The solid truth of religious principles is hidden in the heart of an unadulterated self-realized person. Consequently, as the śāstras confirm, one should accept whatever progressive path the mahājanas advocate.]

We have been instructed by the ācāryas; we have to follow that. That is surrender. You cannot say "Why?" Is that clear? As soon as there is "Why?", there is no surrender.

Guest: But suppose one is engaged for his livelihood for eight hours, or ten hours for material purposes...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: How he will link with Kṛṣṅa during that period?

Prabhupāda: Well, you have got twenty-four hours. For livelihood... Your livelihood, if also... That also should be for Kṛṣṅa. Just like Kṛṣṅa said, yat karoṣi. Yat karoṣi [Bg 9.27]. That means whatever you do, your livelihood is also... Do it. You do it for Kṛṣṅa. Livelihood, just like we are also living, we are also eating, you are also eating. So what is the difference? You mold your life in such a way that that working for your livelihood would be also Kṛṣṅa's service.

Guest: That should not be for ours.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guest: That should not be for ours.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṅa says, kuruṣva mad-arpaṅam, yat karoṣi. "Whatever you do, the result should be given to Me." Do for it. "Do for Me." Yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi yad aśnāsi yat tapasyasi dadāsi yat [Bg 9.27]. So this requires training, how everything can be molded for Kṛṣṅa. Therefore guidance required, bona fide spiritual master required. Under his guidance, one has to do.

Ādau gurvāśrayam. In order to execute Kṛṣṅa consciousness, one has to first of all accept a bona fide spiritual master. Then everything will be done. He is representative of Kṛṣṅa, and to act under his direction means acting under Kṛṣṅa. He knows how to utilize your energy for service of Kṛṣṅa. Ādau gurvāśrayam sad-dharma-pṛcchat sādhu-mārgānugāmanam [Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.74].

Just like Rūpa Gosvāmī: he was prime minister. He had no information of Kṛṣṅa, but since he saw... Of course, Rūpa Gosvāmī is eternally Kṛṣṅa's companion, but superficially he was showing that he was a prime minister and he was engaged in Nawab's service. But when he met Caitanya Mahāprabhu, then he decided that "I shall retire from this service and act Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission." So what did he do?

Whatever money he collected by his service—it was huge amount—fifty percent he immediately spent for Kṛṣṅa. And fifty..., twenty-five percent he gave to the relatives, and twenty-five percent he kept for his emergency expenditure. So this division, fifty percent for Kṛṣṅa means the whole life he acted as a minister, that means he acted for Kṛṣṅa. Because the result is given to Kṛṣṅa, and Kṛṣṅa says, yat karoṣi kuruṣva tad mad-arpaṅam. Is it clear?

But our business is... Suppose I am earning for my livelihood. Everyone is working for... Livelihood requires only six annas per day. But he is earning six thousand per day, and he says, "It is my livelihood." Is it not fact? Very, very... Many, many big businessmen, they are earning six thousand per month..., per day. But actually, for his livelihood he requires six annas. Why he's earning six thousand? Then Kṛṣṅa says, "Give it to Me." Yat karoṣi kuruṣva tad mad-arpaṅam.

Guest: In Adhyāya Two of Śrīmad Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṅa, in one place He has told that karmaṅy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu kadācana [Bg 2.47].

[You have a right to perform your prescribed duty, but you are not entitled to the fruits of action. Never consider yourself to be the cause of the results of your activities, and never be attached to not doing your duty.]

Prabhupāda: Huh? Ma phaleṣu kadācana. But don't take the result.

Guest: He has ordered for duty, "You must do whatever you are doing."

Prabhupāda: Yes. So that duty should be performed. Nobody... Just like Arjuna. Arjuna did his duty. He was a fighter, but he fought for Kṛṣṅa. That is his excellence. Is it not? He was a fighter. His duty as a kṣatriya, his duty is to fight. But he fought for Kṛṣṅa. Similarly, everyone can perform his duty. That is also enjoined in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṅāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ [SB 1.2.13].

[O best among the twice-born, it is therefore concluded that the highest perfection one can achieve by discharging the duties prescribed for one's own occupation according to caste divisions and orders of life is to please the Personality of Godhead.]

Varṅa and āśrama. There are different kinds of duties. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭha varṅāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ, svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya. Everyone has got his particular type of duty, but how he is becoming perfect by performing his duty, that is to be seen whether Kṛṣṅa is satisfied. Svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṅam.

Guest: How it can be judged that...?

Prabhupāda: That by..., through Kṛṣṅa's representative. He should certify, "Yes. Your duty is nicely performed."

Guest: How he may perfectly judge it? How the person will judge himself that I am doing...?

Prabhupāda: No. He'll not judge. His spiritual master will judge—Kṛṣṅa's representative. He'll not judge. He will make mistake. Therefore, if one has accepted a bona fide spiritual master, that means he is in direct touch with Kṛṣṅa. Transparent media. He has to see Kṛṣṅa through the transparent medium of spiritual master.

Therefore it is imperative, one has to accept a spi... Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreyaḥ uttamam [SB 11.3.21].

[Therefore any person who seriously desires real happiness must seek a bona fide spiritual master and take shelter of him by initiation. The qualification of the bona fide guru is that he has realized the conclusions of the scriptures by deliberation and is able to convince others of these conclusions. Such great personalities, who have taken shelter of the Supreme Godhead, leaving aside all material considerations, should be understood to be bona fide spiritual masters.]

And what kind of guru? Śabde pare ca niṣṅataṁ brahmaṅy upāśamāśrayam. So this is a big science. One has to study. One has to understand. The things are there. There is no difficulty.

Guest: Just you have told about liberation, and in Adhyāya to—Kṛṣṅa has told that jīrṅāni vaśtrāni vihāya...

Prabhupāda: Aparāṅi. Navāṅī vaśtrāni aparāṅi, gṛhṅāty aparāṅi.

Guest: Yes. According to that version, one, if the soul was there, soul was there before birth, and after death soul is there, and again the soul is coming in a new shape. So the soul is going on always, changing one body to another body. Then how the soul is liberated? How it will be...

Prabhupāda: Liberated means at the present moment under this material..., in this material world, he is accepting material body, and when he is bona fide servant of Kṛṣṅa, he'll be offered a spiritual body. Just like a soldier. A person, so long he's not a soldier, he does not..., he is not awarded the uniform. But as soon as he accepts the service as a soldier, immediately he is given the uniform.

So you are accepting different bodies in the material world, and that is bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg 8.19]. You are accepting one type of body, it is becoming vanished; again you have to accept another. But as soon as you become perfectly Kṛṣṅa conscious, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg 4.9], then, after leaving this body, he does not come to this material world.

[One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna.]

He is immediately... Mam eti, he transfers. Similarly, he accepts spiritual body.

Is it clear or not? You are accepting material body now, birth after birth. Is it not? That is transmigration. Sometimes you are accepting human body, sometimes you are accepting dog's body, sometimes you are accepting king's body, sometimes you are accepting somebody else. Is it not? Is it clear?

Guest: But Kṛṣṅa has told Arjuna that...

Prabhupāda: First of all, try to clear this. Now, you are accepting different types of body. Is it not a fact?

Guest: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now when you are Kṛṣṅa conscious, you haven't got to accept a material body. You go directly to Kṛṣṅa and accept spiritual body. Then your life is eternal.

Guest: Then again he will not get material...?

Prabhupāda: No. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti. When you are Kṛṣṅa conscious, there is no more accepting material body. Mām eti. And mām eti means whoever goes to Kṛṣṅa, he has as good a body as Kṛṣṅa. That is oneness.

Guest: Then what does it mean when Kṛṣṅa has told Arjuna, in the battlefield, that "Do you think either you or I were not there in the past? And you and I will not be...?"

Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṅa and Arjuna existed. You are existing. You are eternal. You are simply changing body. So Kṛṣṅa is existing; you are also existing. What is the difficulty to understand this fact? Kṛṣṅa is existing and you are also existing. You are simply changing body, but Kṛṣṅa is not changing body. That is the difference.

Guest: Soul will not merge into that light, Kṛṣṅa's light?

Prabhupāda: What is that merging? You have got that brain, merging.

Guest: I told that... You have told...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Soul is changing body. Why you are talking of merging? You are changing body; you are individual. I am changing body. I may change to a dog's body, you may change to a demigod's body. That is going on. According to one's karma, he is changing body. Now, when you are Kṛṣṅa conscious fully, this change of body will take place also, but that body will be spiritual.

So long you get material body, you have to change, one after another, one after another, one after another. Just like if you have a cheap thing, it goes wrong, you have to purchase another new thing. But if you purchase a real, nice thing it will go, continue for good. Similarly, so long you are getting this cheap body, material body, you have to change. And as soon as you get the most valuable body, spiritual body, there will be no more change. Why don't you understand like that?

So that you have to get. That is very simple. Kṛṣṅa says, janma karma me divyam yo jānāti tattvataḥ. One who does not know what is Kṛṣṅa, he thinks that somebody is greater than Kṛṣṅa. But anyone who knows Kṛṣṅa as He is, immediately he gets that permanent body. Simply by knowing Kṛṣṅa.

janma karma me divyam yo jānāti tattvataḥ tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mam eti... [Bg 4.9]

[One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna.]

Is it clear? Yes. So you have to do that. [Prabhupāda is pounding on the table, stressing points] You have simply to understand Kṛṣṅa. The whole problem is solved.

Guest: [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: [Hindi] You cannot concoct. [Hindi] Try to understand Kṛṣṅa, and Kṛṣṅa can be understood simply by devotional service. Kṛṣṅa says, bhaktya mām abhijānāti [Bg 18.55].

[One can understand the Supreme Personality as He is only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of the Supreme Lord by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God.]

[Hindi] If you want to understand Kṛṣṅa, you have to accept this devotional service. You cannot propose any other alternative. It is useless. Don't spoil time. Kṛṣṅa says, bhaktya mām abhijānāti [Bg 18.55]. And that begins, first of all, surrender to Kṛṣṅa. Sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg 18.66].

[Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear.]

Whatever nonsense you have known, throw away. Simply surrender to Kṛṣṅa. That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā.

Guest: [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: [Hindi] Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān [Bg 4.1].

[The Blessed Lord said: I instructed this imperishable science of yoga to the sun-god, Vivasvān, and Vivasvān instructed it to Manu, the father of mankind, and Manu in turn instructed it to Ikṣvāku.]

Forty millions of years ago what He did, He remembers. Therefore His maraṅa, His janma is different. [Hindi] He remembers; you do not remember. You sambhava[?], but you do not remember. Why don't you understand the difference between your activities and Kṛṣṅa's activities? That is wanted. Why do you think that "Kṛṣṅa is as good as I am"? Then you'll be able to understand Him.

Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā. As soon as you think that "Kṛṣṅa is as good as I am," then you are mūḍha. "Because He has appeared as a human being, therefore He is as good a human being like me," that is the conclusion of the mūḍha, rascals. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍha mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam, paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto [Bg 9.11].

[Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature and My supreme dominion over all that be.]

He does not know what is Kṛṣṅa. [Hindi] ...bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ [Bg 18.55].

[One can understand the Supreme Personality as He is only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of the Supreme Lord by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God.]

[break] ...understands Kṛṣṅa as He is, then he's allowed to, "Come on. Enter." Not before that.

Guest: What about the argument, not [indistinct], but India we see that every great saint personality has surrendered to Kṛṣṅa, even Mahatma Gandhi?

Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no.

Guest: He was also taking his...

Prabhupāda: No, no. Don't say like that. Surrender of Kṛṣṅa is different. Then you have to understand what is surrender. Mahatma never surrendered to Kṛṣṅa. He surrendered to yourself; therefore you killed him. [Indian laughs] He surrendered to his countrymen, and his countrymen killed him. He was working for his countrymen. That's all. He never worked for Kṛṣṅa.

Guest: But the Gītā was always with him.

Prabhupāda: But, but, no "but." You see from the action.

Guest: I also read Gītā. What's the difference? I mean, Mahatma Gandhi...

Prabhupāda: He never surrendered to Kṛṣṅa. I wrote him letter, "Mahatma Gandhi, you have got so much influence. You just preach the gospel of Kṛṣṅa..., Bhagavad-gītā. Now we have attained svarāj. You don't be in politics." But he was still in politics after attainment of svarāj. And his assistants became disgusted because he was interfering, and therefore he was killed.

And that is open secret. If he would have surrendered to Kṛṣṅa, "All right. Now I have worked for svarāj. My people have got svarāj. Now let me work for Kṛṣṅa..." He never did that. You cannot say that he surrendered to Kṛṣṅa. He should have taken immediately sannyāsa and preached Bhagavad-gītā if he was actually surrendered to Kṛṣṅa. What did he do for Kṛṣṅa? We have to know from practical point of view.

I'll tell you another story about Mahatma Gandhi. My Guru Mahārāja invited him in our maṭha, Mahatma Gandhi. So Mahatma Gandhi inquired... The, my Godbrothers went to invite him. "What you are doing in your maṭha?" They replied that "We are worshiping Lord Kṛṣṅa." So he inquired, "Are you pulling on charka?" They said, "No, sir." He said, "Charka is my God. If there is no charka, I am not going there." He said like that.

Devotee: What is charka?

Prabhupāda: Yes, spinning. Because he was spinning daily. Just like you are chanting sixteen rounds, he was spinning sixteen rounds. [laughter] And he said frankly, "Are you spinning charka?" They said, "No, sir." "Oh, then I am not going there. My God is charka." That is practical. We have got experience. And actually he was refusing. Just like we are insisting, "You must chant Hare Kṛṣṅa mantra sixteen rounds," he was... There were so many charkas daily selling. People took it very seriously. We also took charka and that, what is called?

Devotee: Handloom.

Prabhupāda: Handloom. And there was very good business. So many charkas and that handloom was sold in the shops, because everyone was purchasing and purchasing. And they were stacked and thrown away some time after. So... Because Mahatma Gandhi asked, everyone did. You see? So he also asked our maṭha people that "Are you spinning a charka?"

They said, "No, sir." "Then I am not going." He refused the invitation. Does it mean he surrendered to Kṛṣṅa? He surrendered to charka. That's all. [laughter] And if you say, "Charka[?] is also Kṛṣṅa," oh, there will be no more argument. [laughter]

Guest: [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: Avatāra means avatāran. [Hindi] What is the meaning of descent? What is the meaning of descent?

Yamunā: Descent?

Prabhupāda: Coming down. Coming down. Yes.

Guest: In the sense of quality or in the sense of form?

Prabhupāda: The sense of form. Because your brain is congested with impersonalism, you cannot understand what is spiritual form. That is your defect.

Guest: That is the trouble.

Prabhupāda: Yes. [Hindi] All hodgepodge things should be...

Guest: [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore... [Hindi]

Guest: But this intellect and...

Prabhupāda: What is this intellect? It is ignorance. This is not intellect. It is ignorance. You are accepting something wrong. That is ignorance. Ignorance is jñānavān. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg 7.19].

[After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.]

That is knowledge. This is ignorance. He does not know Kṛṣṅa. And one who does not know Kṛṣṅa, he has no value of his knowledge.

Bhāgavata says, na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṅuṁ [SB 7.5.31].

[Persons who are strongly entrapped by the consciousness of enjoying material life, and who have therefore accepted as their leader or guru a similar blind man attached to external sense objects, cannot understand that the goal of life is to return home, back to Godhead, and engage in the service of Lord Viṣṅu. As blind men guided by another blind man miss the right path and fall into a ditch, materially attached men led by another materially attached man are bound by the ropes of fruitive labor, which are made of very strong cords, and they continue again and again in materialistic life, suffering the threefold miseries.]

Knowledge, what is the target of knowledge? To go up to Viṣṅu, to understand. Tad viṣṅuṁ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti surayaḥ [Ṛg Veda].

[The lotus feet of Lord Viṣṅu are the supreme objective of all the demigods. These lotus feet of the Lord are as enlightening as the sun in the sky.]

Those who are actually intelligent, they are simply observing the Viṣṅu form. This is Vedic mantra. So unless you reach to that point, your knowledge has no value. It is ignorance. Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yogamāyā-samāvṛtaḥ [Bg 7.25].

[I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent. For them I am covered by My eternal creative potency [yoga-māyā]; and so the deluded world knows Me not, who am unborn and infallible.]

So long you do not understand Kṛṣṅa, that means your knowledge is covered still.

yeśām anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ punya-karmaṅām te dvanda-moha-nirmuktā bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ [Bg 7.28]

[Persons who have acted piously in previous lives and in this life, whose sinful actions are completely eradicated and who are freed from the duality of delusion, engage themselves in My service with determination.]

Ignorance means pāpa. Through ignorance one commits sin. Just like a man kills somebody in ignorance, that he will be killed also he does not know. Just like so many people are killing animals. They do not know that the animal will also kill him. That is ignorance. Just like here the law is "Life for life." If you take one life, then you have to give your life. State law. Is it not?

If you kill somebody, then you'll be killed also. So why not God's law like that? But they are ignorant; they are killing animals. That is ignorance. Killing means sin. Why they are committing this sin? Ignorance. He does not know the law that he will also be killed. Karma-bandhana. Yajñārthāt karmaṅo 'nyatra karma-bandhanaḥ [Bg 3.9].

[Work done as a sacrifice for Viṣṅu has to be performed, otherwise work binds one to this material world. Therefore, O son of Kuntī, perform your prescribed duties for His satisfaction, and in that way you will always remain unattached and free from bondage.]

He'll be bound up by his action. And he does not know. That is ignorance.

So this whole world is..., this material world is full of ignorance. Therefore it is called tamasi. Tamasi mā jyotir gama. That ignorance is, I mean to say, dissipated simply by Kṛṣṅa consciousness. There is no other method. Ceto-darpaṅa-mārjanaṁ [Cc Antya 20.12].

[Let there be all victory for the chanting of the holy name of Lord Kṛṣṅa, which can cleanse the mirror of the heart and stop the miseries of the blazing fire of material existence. That chanting is the waxing moon that spreads the white lotus of good fortune for all living entities. It is the life and soul of all education. The chanting of the holy name of Kṛṣṅa expands the blissful ocean of transcendental life. It gives a cooling effect to everyone and enables one to taste full nectar at every step.]

Simply by Kṛṣṅa consciousness, that ignorance can be dissipated. Otherwise not. Not possible.

Kṛṣṅa therefore says, sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ [Bg 7.19].

[After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.]

Completely eradicated from the platform of ignorance is very rarely to be found. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. There may be so many mahātmās, but such mahātmā who has fully surrendered to Kṛṣṅa is very rare. Therefore one who has surrendered to Kṛṣṅa, he is perfect mahātmā, he is perfect yogī.

Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Suppose for one who's not completely surrendered, how will he make choices? For example, suppose that there seem to be two different ways of serving Kṛṣṅa...

Prabhupāda: He should consult his spiritual master.

Devotee: Suppose, for example, questions are arising in my mind and I think to myself, "Oh, this question is a foolish question, so I shouldn't waste the spiritual master's time." But on the other hand...

Prabhupāda: No. Don't speculate. You should immediately refer the matter to a spiritual master.

Devotee: Then I would be asking you questions all day long, and you'd have no time to do anything else. [laughter]

Prabhupāda: No. You are welcome. You are welcome.

Devotee: So... Then how do you... Suppose, for example, last night. I was chanting, and then I thought to myself, "Oh, I'm not concentrating on the chanting any more. Now I should go to sleep." Then how...

Prabhupāda: Therefore you are..., we have prescribed rules for chanting. You must finish sixteen rounds, then go to sleep, whole day sleeping. You finish that sixteen rounds and sleep whole day. I have no objection. [laughter]

Devotee: But then...

Prabhupāda: There is no "then." Don't talk nonsense. If you are so much addicted to sleeping, you simply chant sixteen rounds and whole day sleep. But don't take food also. [laughter] Don't get up taking prasādam: "Now I have to honor prasādam. Let me eat sumptuous, then again sleep more."

Devotee: Is there some order of priority in service, then? I mean, sixteen rounds is more important than anything else. And then following that, there's something else.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. If you cannot do anything else, you simply chant sixteen rounds, take prasādam and sleep. [laughter] It is special prerogative for you. There is no "then." This is, this is order for you.

Devotee: In a situation where there's a choice between, say, chanting and reading, is chanting a better activity than reading?

Prabhupāda: Yes, chanting and reading is the same thing.

Devotee: But is one better than the other?

Prabhupāda: No better. That I explained. It is absolute. Either you chant or read, the same thing. But you have to fulfill the sixteen rounds. That's it.

All right. Let us... [end]