Room Conversation [English / Hindi]

Tejiyas: So this is Sri Madan. He is architect.

Prabhupāda: Madan Mohan.

Tejiyas: And this is Sri...

Prabhupāda: [indistinct]

[break] [Hindi] Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam [Bg 9.26].

[If one offers Me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit or water, I will accept it.]

Then?

Tejiyas: This is Sri Naran Svarupa Sharma. He was professor in England and then Member of Parliament here.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Tejiyas: And he has been helpful. Very nice.

Prabhupāda: Prāṅair arthair dhiyā vācā śreya-ācaraṅaṁ sadā [SB 10.22.35]. [Hindi] Just see our condition. You have read this morning's paper?

Guest (1): Yes.

Prabhupāda: Swami Akhandananda is speaking kalpanā. Such a big sannyāsī, he says that Kṛṣṅa is kalpanā.

Guest (1): What was that now?

Prabhupāda: Swami Akhandananda, he was...

Guest (1): Swami Akhandananda, I see. But yes, in Birla temple.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Birla temple is speaking that Kṛṣṅa is kalpanā.

Guest (2): Kalpanā.

Prabhupāda: Yes, kalpanā. Māyāvādī theory is brahma nirākāra, so... [Hindi] You can imagine that God is so insignificant that you can imagine His form. This dangerous theory is going on in India. God is so insignificant that you can imagine, at your whims, whatever you like. Ramakrishna Mission is also preaching this, and our this big, big sannyāsī, they also preaching this. God is a subject matter for..., of my imagination, He is so insignificant. You have seen the paper?

Guest (1): No. I haven't read this particular statement.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Rayānanda[?], can you get that paper, Hindustan?

Guest: Quite surprising. He's quite a learned scholar.

Prabhupāda: The learned scholar, they have been described in the Bhagavad-gītā, māyaya apahṛta-jñānā asurī-bhāvam āśritāḥ [Bg 7.15].

[Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, lowest among mankind, whose knowledge is stolen by illusion, and who partake of the atheistic nature of demons, do not surrender unto Me.]

Because they have taken this view that God is impersonal, He has no form, this is āsurī. Then māyaya apahṛta-jñānā. Therefore, however learned they may be, māyā takes away their knowledge.

Māyaya apahṛta-jñānā asurī-bhāvam āśr... That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā. [Hindi] The Absolute Truth, that is subjected to be imagined by me. I am a tiny soul. And if a learned sannyāsī says like that, how many thousands of people will believe in that, will be wrongly impressed? This paper will be read by thousands and millions. [Hindi] ...hodgepodge [Hindi].

Guest: Another one, Bala-yogi, has made a statement that "I will call myself anybody but not Hindu."

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Guest: "I will call myself anybody but not Hindu."

Prabhupāda: I will call...?

Guest (2): "Anybody but not Hindu."

Guest: He is not Hindu, he says.

Guest (2): Bal-yogeswara, some other saint. He said, "I am not a Hindu."

Guest: He was giving this sermon in [indistinct].

Guest (2): [indistinct].

Guest: Nobody is now, I think.

Prabhupāda: [referring to paper] [Hindi] What is the heading?

Guest: This one? [reads in Hindi]

Prabhupāda: [Hindi]

Guest: [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: "To imagine." By imagination one is going to tattva-vasya, Absolute Truth. Just see the theory. By imagination you have to reach the tattva-vasya. Tattva means Absolute Truth, reality, and that is subjected to man's imagination.

Guest: You see, Swāmījī, this is the headline, which is not a Akhandananda's statement. Only the reporter has put up the headline.

Prabhupāda: But people will read as Akhandananda's...

Guest: Yes, sir.

Guest (2): Why don't you read the whole matter? Śrīla Prabhupāda says, he says, and he says it very wrongly, that [indistinct]. You read the whole matter. The summary of the whole matter is the same. This is very wrong.

Prabhupāda: Vasudeva, you just..., you can read the whole thing. It is imagination. Tattva...

[break] ...you imagine yourself that "My lover will be like this, like this, like that.'' In this way he will reach to the reality. Do you think it is very nice argument?

Guest: [Hindi conversation with Prabhupāda as Prabhupāda reads article] He is not a bhakta.

Prabhupāda: Huh? Huh?

Guest: He is not a bhakta, he is a scholar.

Prabhupāda: What is the nonsense scholar [laughter] if he does not know the truth? [Hindi] Māyaya apahṛta-jñānā [Bg 7.15].

[Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, lowest among mankind, whose knowledge is stolen by illusion, and who partake of the atheistic nature of demons, do not surrender unto Me.]

Scholar maybe superficially, but real knowledge is taken away by māyā. Caitanya Mahāprabhu [Hindi] māyāvādi-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa [Cc Madhya 6.169].

[Śrīla Vyāsadeva presented the Vedānta philosophy for the deliverance of conditioned souls, but if one hears the commentary of Śaṅkarācārya, everything is spoiled.]

If people hear him, then for good he will be lost in bewilderedness. [Hindi conversation] Why do you think that you are sinner? [Hindi conversation] Our theory is not that. Kṛṣṅa is fighting. He is inducing fight against irreligiosity.

Guest: [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: [Hindi] Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg 7.7]:

[O conqueror of wealth [Arjuna], there is no Truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread.]

"There is no higher reality than Me.'' Are we imaginists? Kṛṣṅa says that mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya: "There is nothing,'' I mean, "as higher reality than Me.'' And these people are taking Him as a mūrta-vigrahaḥ, kalpanā. [Hindi]

Guest: [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: No. Why this word kalpanā is there? That is..., that is my point. Kalpanā means something false imagination. Kalpanā is not reality, and Kṛṣṅa says that "There is no higher reality than Me.'' And He became the subject matter of my kalpanā. [Hindi]

Guest: [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: [Hindi] Let it become reality.

Guest: [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: Why this word should be used as kalpanā? I don't think the newspaper reporter can write in that way unless this word was actually spoken.

Guest: This is Times? Hindustan? [Hindi conversation]

Prabhupāda: [Hindi]

Guest: [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Guest: He says imagination is the supermost.

Prabhupāda: [Hindi]

Guest: [reading Hindi]

Prabhupāda: [Hindi conversation] Bhagavān is sac-cid-ānanda vigrahaḥ. Bhagavān says, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ [Bg 10.8],

[I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who know this perfectly engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts.]

ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā. [Hindi] sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti murtayaḥ [Bg 14.4].

[It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed-giving father.]

Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā. [Hindi] So practical experience [Hindi].

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṅaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ anādir ādir govindaḥ sarva-kāraṅa-kāraṅam [Bs 5.1]

[Kṛṣṅa who is known as Govinda is the Supreme Godhead. He has an eternal blissful spiritual body. He is the origin of all. He has no other origin and He is the prime cause of all causes.]

[Hindi] They have been cut with two hands because I have got really two hands. [Hindi] Vāsāṁsi jīrṅāni yathā vihāya [Bg 2.22]. [Hindi] Origin, I am spirit soul. [Hindi] Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūta [Bg 15.7]. [Hindi] Bhagavān katha mamaivāṁśo. So bhagavān nirākāra. Bhagavān avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāh, mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam [Bg 9.11].

[Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature and My supreme dominion over all that be.]

[Hindi] is all for imagination.

Guest: [Hindi conversation]

Prabhupāda: [Hindi] ...program he, I shall return to USA by the month of March. So, December, January, February. [Hindi conversation] Thank you very much. [Hindi] We are dealing with facts. [Hindi] The..., already everything is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. We have to simply explain them. That's all. Explanation [Hindi]. You cannot stop sunshine. That is not possible.

But you close yourself in the dark room. It is not possible to cover Kṛṣṅa. That is not possible. But by jugglery of words you close yourself in a dark room. [Hindi conversation] Oh, thank you. All right, thank you very much. Come on. No. [Hindi] [laughs]

[aside] You can open this and distribute it.

[Hindi] Hare Kṛṣṅa. Jaya. [Hindi conversation] [break] [Hindi]

Guest: [indistinct] Any worship, we first worship Lord Ganeśa, in...

Prabhupāda: That is not necessary. That is not necessary. If we worship other demigods to fulfill our some particular desire [Hindi]. There are different demigods they worship, but one who knows that "If I approach Kṛṣṅa, the Supreme Lord, then everything is obtained..."

Guest: You say a true devotee of Kṛṣṅa, such a person need not go after the demigods?

Prabhupāda: No, no, no.

Guest: Secondly...

Prabhupāda: There is no need.

Guest: But if he goes after demigods...

Prabhupāda: If he wants some material profit. [Hindi conversation] So kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ prapadyante anya-devatāḥ [Bg 7.20]. [Hindi]

Guest: [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: Tulsidas is different; therefore we don't take Tulsidas as authority.

Guest: Not? Then, sir, there is Rāma and there is Kṛṣṅa. You have Hare Rāma, Hare Kṛṣṅa. So Rāma is Hari. Kṛṣṅa is considered Hari. So when you...

Prabhupāda: No, Rāma... Bhagavān has different forms: rāmādi-mūrtiṣu kalā-niyamena tiṣṭhan [Bs 5.39].

[I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who manifested Himself personally as Kṛṣṅa and the different avatāras in the world in the forms of Rāma, Nṛsiṁha, Vāmana, etc., as His subjective portions.]

Bhagavān can expand in both.

Guest: That's good. So that explains...

Prabhupāda: Viṣṅu-tattva. That is called viṣṅu-tattva.

Guest: In that expansion can't we take Durgā and Śiva, even for...

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is śakti-tattva. We have to take expansion according to the tattva. Substance and categories; in which category. The substance is Viṣṅu, and all other tattvas are categories. So devatās, they are śakti-tattva, śakti category, the same category as you are. The same example: just like here a government officer, he is also Indian gentleman, you are also Indian gentleman, but he has got his power on account of his high qualities. Similarly, you can become also Durgā. You can become Indra, Candra, Sūrya.

So qualitatively the ant, you or a learned brāhmaṅa, they are all the same category.

vidyā-vinaya-sampanne brahmaṅe gavi hastini śuni caiva śva-pāke ca paṅḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ [Bg 5.18]

[The humble sage, by virtue of true knowledge, sees with equal vision a learned and gentle brāhmaṅa, a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog-eater [outcaste]]

A paṅḍita knows that they are on the same jīva-tattva categories. Viṣṅu-tattva, jīva-tattva, śakti-tattva, there are many tattvas. Brahman-tattva, paramātmā-tattva and bhagavat-tattva, they are the substance, and all other tattvas, they are jīva-tattva, śakti-tattva, like that.

So Bhagavān is not jīva-tattva, but others, they are jīva-tattva. Demigods, they are jīva-tattva. Brahmā is also jīva-tattva. Devī is śakti-tattva. Jīva is also śakti-tattva. In one sense jīva-tattva is higher than this material śakti-tattva. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:

apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parāḥ jīva-bhūtaṁ mahā-bāho yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat [Bg 7.5]

[Besides this inferior nature, O mighty-armed Arjuna, there is a superior energy of Mine, which are all living entities who are struggling with material nature and are sustaining the universe.]

[Hindi]

Guest: For meditation, which form of should we...

Prabhupāda: Meditation Viṣṅu, Viṣṅu form.

Guest: [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: Yes. Viṣṅu form is the objective. Tad viṣṅoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti sūrayo. Viṣṅu-padma lakṣar[?], Ṛg Veda mantra. Oṁ tad viṣṅoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti sūrayaḥ divīva cakṣur ātatam, like that.

Guest: But in the Eleventh Chapter of the Gītā...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: ...when Lord has shown His virāṭ-darśana...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: ...He has shown Brahmā, Viṣṅu, Maheśa, etc. They are all in Him.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: Subordinate to Him.

Prabhupāda: You are also in Him.

Guest: They are subordinate to Him.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Subordinate. Yes.

Guest: Therefore to meditate on Kṛṣṅa, the only Hare Kṛṣṅa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. To meditate upon Kṛṣṅa is the highest yogic principle.

Guest: So that's what I asked...

Prabhupāda: Generally yogīs, they observe viṣṅu-tattva, generally.

Guest: For what...

Prabhupāda: But higher yogīs, bhakta-yogīs, they see only Kṛṣṅa.

Guest: Kṛṣṅa.

Prabhupāda: Therefore Kṛṣṅa says, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gatenāntarātmanā [Bg 6.47].

[And of all yogīs, he who always abides in Me with great faith, worshiping Me in transcendental loving service, is most intimately united with Me in yoga and is the highest of all.]

Guest: What is fit for lay people? Which form should we meditate upon?

Prabhupāda: For Kali-yuga, this is Kṛṣṅa. Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṅasya [SB 12.3.51].

[My dear King, although Kali-yuga is an ocean of faults, there is still one good quality about this age: Simply by chanting the Hare Kṛṣṅa mahā-mantra, one can become free from material bondage and be promoted to the transcendental kingdom.]

Kali-yuga, kīrtanād eva kṛṣṅasya.

Guest: I asked which form, that is the form...

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṅa form.

Guest: Kṛṣṅa form holding muralī[?] in His hand?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Veṅu, muralīdhara.

veṅuṁ kvaṅantam aravinda-dalāyatākṣaṁ barhāvataṁsam asitāmbuda sundarāṅgam kandarpa-koṭi-kamanīya-viśeṣa-śobhaṁ govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi [Bs 5.30]

[I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who is adept in playing on His flute, with blooming eyes like lotus petals with head decked with peacock's feather, with the figure of beauty tinged with the hue of blue clouds, and His unique loveliness charming millions of Cupids.]

Guest: But when you chant "Rāma,'' the other...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāma is another... There is no difference between Rāma and Kṛṣṅa. If you like...

Guest: The form comes different in the...

Prabhupāda: Yes, but they are the same. Rāmādi mūrti.

Guest: For purpose of practice I am asking, when you chant Rāma, should you have the form of Rāma before you?

Prabhupāda: That, that depends on your affection. Bhagavān has got many forms. If you want, if you love Rāma, that's all right. If you love Kṛṣṅa, that is all right. If you love Nārāyaṅa, that is also all right. But Bhagavān mūrti, rāmādi-mūrtiṣu.

Guest: Along with Rādhe? [Hindi] [laughter]

Prabhupāda: That is incongruency. Rāma with Sītā.

Guest: Along with...

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Guest: Kṛṣṅa along with Rādhikā.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṅa, Kṛṣṅa with Rādhārāṅī.

Guest: Then what is Rādhā category?

Prabhupāda: The same śakti. Cit-śakti. Bhagavān ke pleasure potency. Śakti, śakti-tattva. So śaktimān. Bhagavān is śaktimān, and that śakti is Rādhārāṅī or Sītā or Lakṣmī. Durgā is also śakti, another feature of Rādhārāṅī.

Guest: Śakti in original is Rādhā?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Parāsya śaktih..., parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate [Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 6.8].

[The Supreme Lord has nothing to do. Nothing is equal to Him or greater than Him. He acts in different phases by manifesting His parts and parcels, which are all simultaneously differently situated by His unlimited, variegated potencies. Each potency acts quite naturally in sequences, providing Him full knowledge, power and pastimes.]

[Hindi] Originally cit-śakti. Cit-śakti. That cit-śakti is expanding. Just like we are..., rāmādi mūrtiṣu kalā-niyamena tiṣṭhan [Bs 5.39].

[I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who manifested Himself personally as Kṛṣṅa and the different avatāras in the world in the forms of Rāma, Nṛsiṁha, Vāmana, etc., as His subjective portions.]

Kalā means part and parcel. So we are also part and parcel, but we are very small part and parcel.

But rāmādi mūrti, they are bigger part and parcel. Just like if you throw one brick on the floor, so there will be so many small particles, big particles, this particle, that par... They are all part and parcel of the brick, but one part, very small atomic part, and one big part, this part, this part, then this part, then this part. So all, Kṛṣṅa is the origin, and everyone is part and parcel. Some of them are bigger and some of them are smaller. So viṣṅu-tattva is almost like Kṛṣṅa.

Guest: Like Kṛṣṅa.

Prabhupāda: Others, they are very small. So according to the size, or according to the power...

Guest: Power.

Prabhupāda: ...the part and parcel exercises his position. Some of them are viṣṅu-tattva, some of them are jīva-tattva, some of them are śakti-tattva and some of them para-tattva. Like that.

Guest: Para-tattva?

Prabhupāda: Para-tattva.

Guest: Means?

Prabhupāda: Para-tattva is Bhagavān. Para-tattva means Kṛṣṅa, Rāma, Nārāyaṅa, Viṣṅu. These are para-tattvas. Bhagavān avatāra, rāmā, nṛsiṁha, varāha, kūrma, vāmana, daśāvatāra, all avatāra. [Hindi] Or śakti-tattva, material energy, aparā-tattva, matter. Similarly cit-tattva, spiritual world. The living entities, although they are in the material world, they belong to the spiritual world. Therefore Kṛṣṅa says, apareyam. This material energy is inferior. Itas viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām. Beyond this there is another, superior energy, jīva-bhūta. That is jīva.

Devotee: Excuse me, Śrīla Prabhupāda, Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṅu...

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Devotee: Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṅu...

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Devotee: Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṅu is in which category?

Prabhupāda: He is para-tattva.

Devotee: And, uh...

Prabhupāda: Any viṣṅu-tattva is para-tattva.

Guest: What is definition of [indistinct]?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Guest: Some people say that jīva is a, you see, surrounded by [Hindi].

Prabhupāda: [Hindi] False. False ego. He is misidentifying with this matter. He is not matter. So this ahaṅkāra, this identification, has to be purified by understanding himself that "I am Brahman. I am not matter.'' That is purification. And as soon as he is purified, brahma-bhūta.... Now jīva-bhūta, but when he becomes brahma-bhūta, then he becomes jolly. Brahma-bhutaḥ prasannātmā [Bg 18.54].

[And of all yogīs, he who always abides in Me with great faith, worshiping Me in transcendental loving service, is most intimately united with Me in yoga and is the highest of all.]

That is the symptom. Not that "I am realized Brahman.'' But the symptom will be there. If he says, "I am very rich man,'' then I'll see what is the symptom, whether you have got a nice car, you have got many servants, and "Oh, yes, you are rich man.'' And if you are walking on the street with a sweeper, how can I accept you?

Guest: If I am that bad balances and [indistinct]. [laughter]

Prabhupāda: Subject to your symptom. [laughter] [Hindi]

Guest: [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: [Hindi]

Guest: We're just asking questions and questions. [indistinct] Endeavor to understand it. [indistinct] That we have come to receive. [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: Bhagavān's rāsa-līla is very confidential. It is not for ordinary men. [Hindi] So, step by step [Hindi]. Rādhā-Kṛṣṅa rāsa-līla, Kṛṣṅa with young girls dancing, embracing, kissing, just like ordinary novel and nātha. They like it. So these professional Bhāgavata readers, they take advantage of the people's inferior quality, of their weakness, and make money. That's all.

Guest: That's why I wanted to know...

Prabhupāda: Yes. They make money.

Guest: ...the real significance, that spiritual...

Prabhupāda: The significance..., there is no significance. These professional Bhāgavata readers, they make money from the public because public wants to hear all these things. Just like we read a novel—a woman is embracing a man, or kissing or having sex. They like it. Therefore they go the Bhāgavata Tenth Canto immediately. Their Bhāgavata reading is professional, not understanding of Kṛṣṅa.

If you want to understand Kṛṣṅa, then go step by step, one by one. First of all read Bhagavad-gītā, try to understand, and you surrender to Kṛṣṅa as Kṛṣṅa says, then you enter. Just like after passing entrance examination you enter into the college. Similarly, when you are qualified in accepting Kṛṣṅa as all in all, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṅam [Bg 18.66],

[Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear.]

then you enter into Bhāgavata.

Bhāgavata is the graduate study, not ordinary study. But these professionals, they take advantage of the weakness of the people, and they make profession and earn some money. That's all. When we speak of Bhāgavata we speak from First Canto, Second Canto, Third Canto..., the nine cantos to understand Kṛṣṅa. Just like in First Canto the beginning, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1], oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya, janmādy asya yataḥ. This is Vedānta-sūtra verse. Paraṁ satyaṁ dhīmahi. [Hindi] Come to Kṛṣṅa for perfect knowledge, then you'll understand what is kṛṣṅa-līlā. [end]