Bhagavad-gītā 7.1 [Public Lecture]

[kīrtana]

Prabhupāda:

mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṅu [Bg 7.1]

[Now hear, O son of Pṛthā [Arjuna], how by practicing yoga in full consciousness of Me, with mind attached to Me, you can know Me in full, free from doubt.]

Ladies and Gentlemen, I beg to thank you for giving us the opportunity to preach Kṛṣṅa consciousness in this meeting. So this is the essence of Kṛṣṅa consciousness movement, this verse spoken by Kṛṣṅa Himself. Bhagavad-gītā is spoken by Kṛṣṅa Himself, and we are preaching kṛṣṅa-kathā, the words, the message of Kṛṣṅa, as it is, without any wrong interpretation.

Our beloved student Śrīmān Hanumān Gosvāmī has already given some introduction about our movement. Lord Caitanya, five hundred years ago, ordered it. Lord Caitanya is accepted as Kṛṣṅa Himself in the form of a devotee. Kṛṣṅa, when He was personally present, He stressed that He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg 7.7].

[O conqueror of wealth [Arjuna], there is no Truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread.]

I understand that you are reading in this hall Bhagavad-gītā regularly. You know all these verses. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat asti kiñcit. Kṛṣṅa says, mattaḥ: "beyond Me." Just like if I say, "Beyond me, this person," similarly, Kṛṣṅa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat.

So your prayer, nirākāra, or gagana-sadṛśa, that is one feature of Kṛṣṅa. Kṛṣṅa is person. The nirākāra, Brahman feature, is His effulgence of the body. That is expressed in the Bhagavad-gītā, brahmaṅaḥ ahaṁ pratiṣṭhā. The Absolute Truth is realized in three angles of vision according to the capacity of the devotee. Vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam [SB 1.2.11].

[Learned transcendentalists who know the Absolute Truth call this nondual substance Brahman, Paramātmā or Bhagavān.]

Tattva-vit. Tattva-vit means one who has realized the Supreme Truth. He is called tattva-vit. Tattva means Supreme Truth, and vit means one who knows.

So vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvam. Those who know what is Absolute Truth, they say that is the Absolute Truth which is advaya-jñāna. Advaya-jñāna means without any duality. Just like here in this material world it is called dual world, duality. Everything cannot be understood absolutely. If I say... It is a, rather in ordinary language, relative world. Here everything is relative. Just like if I say "father," "father" has no meaning if there is no son. Duality. If I say "good," so unless I have got idea of bad, I cannot understand good. If I say "light," unless I have got conception of darkness, I cannot understand light.

So here everything is duality, relative knowledge, relative world, but in the absolute world everything is one, spirit. Here... Because here we have got experience two energies, spiritual energy and material energy, working. The material energies are the physical elements, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ [Bg 7.4]:

[Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego—altogether these eight comprise My separated material energies.]

earth, water, fire, air, sky and, in subtle form, mind, intelligence, ego. They are all material. Mind is also material, intelligence is also material, but they are subtle forms. And spiritual existence is the living entity, as we are. These things are very nicely explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām. The material, physical elements, they are inferior quality of..., inferior quality, energy, of Kṛṣṅa. But the superior quality of energy we are, living entities. Jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat [Bg 7.5].

[Besides this inferior nature, O mighty-armed Arjuna, there is a superior energy of Mine, which are all living entities who are struggling with material nature and are sustaining the universe.]

Therefore here in this material world there are two energies working. In the spiritual world there is only spiritual energy working. But in the material world, two energies are working: material and spiritual. Material energy is dependent on spiritual energy. Spiritual energy is prominent everywhere, in this material world and the spiritual world. Here also, the matter is developing upon spirit, not that spirit is manifesting under certain conditional stage of matter. That is a wrong theory.

For example, the small spiritual spark, the living entity, very small, we cannot even imagine with our material brain. It is one ten-thousandth part of a point. We, in the material world, we cannot measure the length and breadth of point. Therefore those who are mathematicians, they say, "Point has no length, no breadth." But actually that is not a fact. You have no eyes to see the length and breadth of the point. You are so blunt, your senses are so limited, imperfect, that you cannot imagine that a point can have length and breadth. But we get information from Vedic literature, not only the point, but one ten-thousandth part of the point is measured. Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya śatadhā kalpitasya ca, jīvo bhāgaḥ sa vijñeyaḥ [Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 5.9].

[When the upper point of a hair is divided into one hundred parts and again each of such parts is further divided into one hundred parts, each such part is the measurement of the dimension of the spirit soul.]

Because we have no imagination, we have no instrument, neither we have sufficient knowledge what is the length and breadth of the form of the living entity. Therefore Vedic literature gives you an idea that you just try to imagine one ten-thousandth part of the point, and that is the measurement.

keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya śatadhā kalpitasya ca jīvo bhāgaḥ sa vijñeyaḥ sa ānantyāya kalpate [Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 5.9]

So living entities, spiritual spark, that measurement is given there. Whenever there is measurement, there is form. It is not... But because we cannot see the form, we say nirākāra. It is our incompetency. Just like I cannot see beyond this wall. My seeing power is limited. Therefore I see there is nothing beyond this wall; there is nothing beyond this room. That is not fact. There is everything. I can see the sun, which is fourteen hundred thousand times bigger than this planet, but my eyes are seeing, daily, just like a disc. So don't believe your senses. Your senses are imperfect. Whatever knowledge you get by experimental knowledge, experimental method, that is the modern ways of understanding. But these things cannot be experimented.

Therefore we have to take the knowledge from the Vedas.

tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet samit-pāṅiḥ śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham [Muṅḍaka Upaniṣad 1.2.12]

[To understand these things properly, one must humbly approach, with firewood in hand, a spiritual master who is learned in the Vedas and firmly devoted to the Absolute Truth.]

Tad viṣṅoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti sūrayaḥ. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān [Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13].

[The Supreme Lord is eternal and the living beings are eternal. The Supreme Lord is cognizant and the living beings are cognizant. The difference is that the Supreme Lord is supplying all the necessities of life for the many other living entities.]

These are Vedic mantras. We have to understand the transcendental science through Vedic knowledge. By our imperfect knowledge if we try to understand the Absolute Truth, naturally we shall find Him, we can imagine. Just like gagana-sadṛśa.

So God is great, but we have no knowledge how He is great. We can simply think of gagana, the sky. That is the greatest. That is our... But we do not know that millions of skies are within the belly of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. There our estimation, gagana-sadṛśa, is imperfect. How He can be gagana-sadṛśa? Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṅḍa-nāthāḥ [Bs 5.48].

[Brahmā and other lords of the mundane worlds, appearing from the pores of hair of Mahā-Viṣṅu, remain alive as long as the duration of one exhalation of the latter [Mahā-Viṣṅu]. I adore the primeval Lord Govinda of whose subjective personality Mahā-Viṣṅu is the portion of portion.]

Jagad-aṅḍa-nāthāḥ. Jagad-aṅḍa means universe, and the gagana is within the universe. Gagana, we cannot see beyond this gagana, but beyond this gagana there is another gagana. In the Bhagavad-gītā... You are reading Bhagavad-gītā. You must know it. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvaḥ anyaḥ [Bg 8.20]: "There is another sky, spiritual sky." Sanātana. Paras tasmāt tu anyaḥ 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ, sarveṣu naśyatsu na vinaśyati. This gagana will be annihilated at the time of destruction, but that does not annihilate.

So the idea of gagana is not perfect idea of the Supreme. Gagana-sadṛśa, that is limited within the purview of our knowledge because we cannot think that anything can be greater than this big sky. No, He is mahato mahīyān, bigger than the biggest, aṅor aṅīyān, smaller than the smallest. Just like we can imagine atom, the smallest. But atom we can see by some way or other, atom. Six atoms, trasareṅu. Six atoms, when it is combined, we can see through the windows with the sunshine so many trasareṅu. Those small particles which we see through the window with sunshine, they are combination of six atom. They are not original atom. But the atomic constitution of the living entity is a thousand times smaller than the atom.

Therefore, aṅor aṅīyān mahato mahīyān: "He is greater than the greatest and smaller than the smallest." The smaller than the smallest, we are. We are also part and parcel. Just like the sun and the sunshine. The sunshine is combination of small atomic molecular parts, shining parts. They are also different. They are not combined together. That is scientific. Similarly, we are also sparks of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ [Bg 15.7]. You are reading Bhagavad-gītā. You know. That aṁśa, that is described already—one ten-thousandth part of the point. Mamaivāṁśo jīva bhūtaḥ. In another place, jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat [Bg 7.5].

[Besides this inferior nature, O mighty-armed Arjuna, there is a superior energy of Mine, which are all living entities who are struggling with material nature and are sustaining the universe.]

This material world is important because it is being manipulated by that small spiritual spark, jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho.

So we are small particles, part and parcel of the Supreme, and they are distributed all over His creation, brahma-jyoti. That is nirākāra. But this brahma-jyoti is not the ultimate truth. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate [SB 1.2.11].

[Learned transcendentalists who know the Absolute Truth call this nondual substance Brahman, Paramātmā or Bhagavān.]

The first realization... Just like light in the morning. When you see light, you see the light of the sun. But that is not very important thing, sunlight. Of course, we have no other means to understand beyond the sunlight, but we take it sunlight is very important. Actually very important, because through sunlight the whole universe is maintained. It is sunlight. As soon as there is shortage of sunlight, the place becomes immediately condemned. As soon as there is sunlight, we feel pleasure, "Oh, today is very sunny day, nice."

So sunlight is always there, but it is being covered. The sunlight is not covered, sun is not covered, but our eyes are covered. Suppose there is cloud. A cloud may expand, say, a hundred miles. But do you think the sunlight is a hundred miles? You cannot estimate—millions and millions of miles. So what hundred miles cloud can cover the sun? The hundred miles cloud can cover my eyes. And we say, "Today sun is covered by the cloud." That is our ignorance.

Similarly, the Supreme Brahman, who is spreading the effulgence of light, He cannot be covered. We are covered. We, the small particles, we are covered. Mohita. Tribhir guṅamayair bhāvair mohitam. Mām eva nābhijānāti [Bg 7.13].

[Deluded by the three modes [goodness, passion and ignorance], the whole world does not know Me who am above the modes and inexhaustible.]

In the Bhagavad-gītā this is. They are bewildered by this external energy. Their eyes have been covered. Their eyes... Our, because we are very small, so our senses, the capacity of the senses, they are also limited. Although we have got all the qualities, because fire and a spark of fire qualitatively the same, but qualitatively [quantitatively] different. Similarly, we are Brahman, and Kṛṣṅa is Para-brahman, Supreme Brahman. Nityo nityānām, the chief of the all eternals. Cetanaś cetanānām. He is the supreme living entity of all living entities. He is also living entity. So if I am a living entity, I have got a form, so why the supreme living entity will not have a form?

This is poor fund of knowledge. He is not nirākāra. But we cannot estimate His ākāra. That is nirākāra. Nirākāra means to estimate. We cannot estimate how big He is. That means nirā... Nirākāra does not mean formless. When there is in the śāstra nirākāra, this word is used, nirākāra means He has no prakṛta-ākāra, material form. That is nirākāra; not that He has no form. That is poor fund of knowledge. He is sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [Bs 5.1].

[Kṛṣṅa who is known as Govinda is the Supreme Godhead. He has an eternal blissful spiritual body. He is the origin of all. He has no other origin and He is the prime cause of all causes.]

Therefore Kṛṣṅa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam [Bg 9.11]:

[Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature and My supreme dominion over all that be.]

"My original form is like human being." And the Bible also it is said, "Man is made after the form of the God."

So God has a form just like a human being, two hands, two legs, and He Himself comes to show Him. That is Kṛṣṅa. He is not nirākāra. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṅaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs 5.1]. Vigraha. Vigraha means form. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṅaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ. Avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannaṁ manyante mām abuddhayaḥ [Bg 7.24].

[Unintelligent men, who know Me not, think that I have assumed this form and personality. Due to their small knowledge, they do not know My higher nature, which is changeless and supreme.]

That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. You know. Avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannam: "The original is impersonal Brahman. Now He has taken form." This conclusion, who makes? Avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannaṁ manyante mām abuddhayaḥ: "Those who are less intelligent, whose intelligence is very poor, they consider that ultimately I am nirākāra. I have taken the form." Sākāra-nirākāra.

No. Kṛṣṅa says, sambhavāmy ātma-māyayā [Bg 4.6]:

[Although I am unborn and My transcendental body never deteriorates, and although I am the Lord of all sentient beings, I still appear in every millennium in My original transcendental form.]

"I come out of My good will." Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata, tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham [Bg 4.7]: "At that time I appear." Therefore Kṛṣṅa says, janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ [Bg 4.9].

[One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna.]

We have to understand Him in truth, not by imagination, not by malinterpretation, but by fact. The fact is being explained by Kṛṣṅa Himself. Why we should go to understand Kṛṣṅa by the commentary of some less intelligent, some poor fund of knowledge? Why we should?

So this Kṛṣṅa consciousness movement means we are presenting the Bhagavad-gītā as it is. That's all. We have no difficulty. We have no difficulty because Kṛṣṅa is accepted as authority, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, by all the ācāryas; not only formerly, like Vyāsadeva, Nārada, Asita, Devala, many, many big, big stalwart... Vyāsadeva everyone knows. Vyāsadeva is the original writer of Vedic knowledge, Vedavyāsa. He accepts Kṛṣṅa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. His disciple Nārada accepts, the Supreme Personality of..., Vyāsadeva's guru, Nārada. Nārada's guru, Brahmā, he accepts, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṅaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs 5.1]. Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi.

So Govinda is person. This impersonal Brahman, nirākāra, that is His personal effulgence, bodily effulgence. Just like the sun. You can understand. The sun planet is localized, and within the sun planet, there is sun-god. His name is also mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā, Vivasvān.

imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam vivasvān manave prāha manur ikṣvākave 'bravīt [Bg 4.1]

[The Blessed Lord said: I instructed this imperishable science of yoga to the sun-god, Vivasvān, and Vivasvān instructed it to Manu, the father of mankind, and Manu in turn instructed it to Ikṣvāku.]

evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg 4.2]

[This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way. But in course of time the succession was broken, and therefore the science as it is appears to be lost.]

So this is the process of studying Bhagavad-gītā.

So if you study Bhagavad-gītā and conclude that the Absolute Truth is nirākāra, I don't think you are making very much progress. Therefore Kṛṣṅa says, tad viddhi praṅipātena paripraśnena sevayā [Bg 4.34].

[Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth.]

You try to understand this science by praṅipāta, praṅipātena, by surrendering, not by deserving yourself, that "I am very learned scholar. Why shall I surrender?" No. That is the first thing wanted. If you want to understand Bhagavad-gītā, then you must take the direction from the Bhagavad-gītā.

The first direction is, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg 4.2]: "All the rājarṣis, they understood Bhagavad-gītā by the paramparā system." That paramparā system, Kṛṣṅa also says, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam [Bg 4.1]:

[The Blessed Lord said: I instructed this imperishable science of yoga to the sun-god, Vivasvān, and Vivasvān instructed it to Manu, the father of mankind, and Manu in turn instructed it to Ikṣvāku.]

"I spoke first of all this system of in the..., system mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā." That is bhakti-yoga. What is that yoga system? Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṅaṁ vraja [Bg 18.66].

[Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear.]

This is the ultimate instruction of Bhagavad-gītā. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ [Bg 15.15].

[I am seated in everyone's heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness. By all the Vedas am I to be known; indeed I am the compiler of Vedānta, and I am the knower of the Vedas.]

"All the Vedas, they are teaching only to understand Me, Kṛṣṅa."

So if we do not understand Kṛṣṅa as He is, although He is explaining, all the ācāryas are explaining... In our country... You come from India. In our country there are big, five ācāryas who is practically controlling the Hindu society or the Vedic society: Śaṅkarācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka, Viṣṅu Svāmī, Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So we have to follow the footprints, the footsteps of the ācāryas. That is mentioned in the... Ācāryopāsanam. If you want to advance in knowledge, then you must worship the ācāryas. Otherwise, what knowledge you will get? You cannot get, manufacturing knowledge or getting knowledge from somebody who has manufactured knowledge. The knowledge must be received by paramparā, by paramparā, as Kṛṣṅa says.

Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam [Bg 4.2],

[This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way. But in course of time the succession was broken, and therefore the science as it is appears to be lost.]

sa kāleneha yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa. He again spoke the science of Bhagavad-gītā to Arjuna because the paramparā was broken. Sa kāleneha naṣṭaḥ. Otherwise there was no need of speaking Bhagavad-gītā to Arjuna. And why He selected Arjuna to understand Bhagavad-gītā? That is also explained. One may say that Arjuna was a gṛhastha, householder, and a politician and a soldier. Why Bhagavad-gītā was instructed to him? That is natural. He was not a vedāntī. He was not a brāhmaṅa. He was not a sannyāsī.

Why he was selected to understand Bhagavad-gītā? This should be... There should be inquiry. Generally, you understand that a vedāntī, a sannyāsī, a brāhmaṅa may know about spiritual knowledge, about God. No, that is not the fact. The fact is, as Kṛṣṅa says, bhakto 'si priyo 'si me rahasyaṁ hy etad uttamam [Bg 4.3]:

[That very ancient science of the relationship with the Supreme is today told by Me to you because you are My devotee as well as My friend; therefore you can understand the transcendental mystery of this science.]

"Because you are My devotee, because you are My dear friend, you can understand the mystery of Bhagavad-gītā."

So the ordinary man who is neither Kṛṣṅa conscious nor a devotee of Kṛṣṅa, he cannot explain Bhagavad-gītā. Whatever they are explaining, they are simply spoiling their time and others' also, big, big scholars—I do not wish to discuss—simply misled. Now this Movement has begun to present Bhagavad-gītā as it is, and people are taking. People are accepting. So you Indians who are present here, that is my request, that you can do tremendous service on behalf of your country. As Caitanya Mahāprabhu says,

bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra [Cc Ādi 9.41]

[One who has taken his birth as a human being in the land of India [Bhārata-varṣa] should make his life successful and work for the benefit of all other people.]

So in this land, New Zealand, fortunately you are there. You try to understand Bhagavad-gītā as it is and preach it. People will take. People will appreciate your contribution. As our Gosvāmījī said that... Actually I have experienced. Whenever I go... When I was in Columbus, I met one gentleman on the street. So as soon as he understood that I am from India, "Oh, India is very poverty-stricken." Yes. This is our advertisement. And actually, in comparison to Western countries, we are poverty-stricken. That's all right. But still we have gift. We have to give something which is so brilliant. This is Kṛṣṅa consciousness.

So my request is that we are going to start a Rādhā-Kṛṣṅa temple here. Just cooperate with us. These foreigners are doing your business. It was your business to spread Kṛṣṅa consciousness all over the world, but you are sleeping. But the Americans, Canadians, Europeans, I am training them. So you take it very seriously. You try to understand Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Try to understand Kṛṣṅa and spread it. That is my request.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṅa. [devotees offer obeisances] [break]

Indian guest (1): ...you must be a very enlightened man to be able to carry on the work that you are doing, and the vast amount of work that you have done. I would like to ask just one question, if you could enlighten me on that. I would like to hear your explanation on how do you..., have seen the form of God, if you have had any enlightenment on this. In what form you have...

Prabhupāda: Here is a picture of Kṛṣṅa. You don't believe? You have not seen picture of Kṛṣṅa?

Indian guest (1): Yes, I have.

Prabhupāda: Then why do you say there is no form of Kṛṣṅa? When you see a photograph of a person, how do you know that he has no form?

Indian guest (1): I do not understand that.

Prabhupāda: If you see the photograph of your father, how do you say that is he impersonal, he has no form? How do you conclude? First of all answer me. I have seen form of Kṛṣṅa. You have seen also form of Kṛṣṅa. There are hundreds and thousands of temples in India. Do you think they are all fools?

And they were established by big ācāryas, by Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṅu Svāmī, Lord Caitanya. There is Jagannātha temple. Jagannātha temple, every day hundreds and thousands of people are going to see. In Vṛndāvana there are five thousand temples, Kṛṣṅa. Five thousand, ten thousand people are going. There are... You know in India there are so many pilgrimages. So do you think all these temples established by our predecessor, they are all fools?

Indian guest (1): So therefore you conclude that when you become enlightened, you will see the God in form of human nature?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is after. In the beginning you have to accept this form, but when you make advance, then you will see always.

premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti yaṁ śyāmasundaram acintya-guṅa-svarūpaṁ govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi [Bs 5.38]

[I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who is Śyāmasundara, Kṛṣṅa Himself with inconceivable innumerable attributes, whom the pure devotees see in their heart of hearts with the eye of devotion tinged with the salve of love.]

When you... First of all you begin, how to try to learn how to love God. And when you are actually on the platform of love, prema, premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti, you will see God always in His form.

He becomes revealed. You haven't got to try to see, but He will reveal. Svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ [Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.234].

[No one can understand the transcendental nature of the name, form, quality and pastimes of Śrī Kṛṣṅa through his materially contaminated senses. Only when one becomes spiritually saturated by transcendental service to the Lord are the transcendental name, form, quality and pastimes of the Lord revealed to him.]

When you engage your tongue... That beginning is tongue. Jihvādau sevonmukhe. If you begin your service... God cannot be understood by our challenging mood.

Therefore Kṛṣṅa says, "First of all surrender. Then try to understand." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṅaṁ vraja, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi [Bg 18.66].

[Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear.]

When you surrender, and by that surrendering process, when you are free from the resultant action of sinful activities, then you can appreciate God. Not that God is my order-supplier: "Please come. I will see You." No.

Yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṅya. You are reading Bhagavad-gītā. You know all these things.

yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṅya-karmaṅām te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ [Bg 7.28]

[Persons who have acted piously in previous lives and in this life, whose sinful actions are completely eradicated and who are freed from the duality of delusion, engage themselves in My service with determination.]

These things are there in the Bhagavad-gītā. One who is completely free from the resultant action of sinful activities, they can be engaged fully in Kṛṣṅa consciousness.

So these students are being trained how to become free from sinful activities. They are forbidden not to have illicit sex. These are four pillars of sinful activity: illicit sex life, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. Yatra pāpaś catur-vidhā. These are exactly to the injunction of the Vedas. So if we purify ourself... In the Bhagavad-gītā, Arjuna appreciates Kṛṣṅa, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg 10.12].

[Arjuna said: You are the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal divine person. You are the primal God, transcendental and original, and You are the unborn and all-pervading beauty. All the great sages such as Nārada, Asita, Devala, and Vyāsa proclaim this of You, and now You Yourself are declaring it to me.]

How you can approach the pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān without being pavitra?

So there is a process to appreciate whether Kṛṣṅa, or God, has form. Unless we adopt the form, superficially it is not possible. I see otherwise there are... Why so many process of bhajana-sādhana if it is so cheap that we can immediately understand what is God? No. And the Veda says, tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [Muṅḍaka Upaniṣad 1.2.12].

[To understand these things properly, one must humbly approach, with firewood in hand, a spiritual master who is learned in the Vedas and firmly devoted to the Absolute Truth.]

That was our system. First of all, they used to become brahmacārī, to become most obedient servant of the spiritual master before becoming gṛhastha. Celibacy, brahmacārī, then gṛhastha. So these things are all lost now. Therefore the śāstra says,

harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā [Cc Ādi 17.21]

[In this Age of Kali there is no other means, no other means, no other means for self-realization than chanting the holy name, chanting the holy name, chanting the holy name of Lord Hari.]

You chant Hare Kṛṣṅa mantra with your tongue. Take prasādam of Kṛṣṅa. You will gradually develop your Kṛṣṅa consciousness, and you will understand what is God. That is the process.

Hanumān: Any other questions?

Indian guest (2): Swāmījī, we live in the Western world, and some are born here, although the youth, and from their date of birth they are all born in India. Perhaps we know very little about Gītā, but this Movement have taken us convert people or to convince people, and how do you give these people stages?

Because when person are ignorant, they need primarily some teaching and then, just like in the school, they go step by step. Well, in this Movement, how can you or what can you expect, or what would you like to give as an enlightenment for an ordinary people? Suppose myself, I am just an ordinary person, and I don't understand anything. Well, what I'd like to know, that I think if you just give those steps would be far better for the audience to just follow that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That I have already explained, that we are training people in different parts of the world by opening centers. So you come and take the advantage of this center and learn how to do it. This center is open for this purpose, that people may take advantage how to develop Kṛṣṅa consciousness. Just like you go to school and you learn how to read and write, and then you pass M.A. examination; similarly, if you think that you have forgotten, you have no knowledge, please come, take the process.

And just like these people, they were not born in India. They are not Hindus. They are not Vaiṣṅavas. Their forefathers never heard what is Kṛṣṅa, neither they heard. How they are taking? It is the process. That process we are giving to everyone, without any discrimination. We have got students from all communities: Hindus, Muslim, Christian, Parsis and Africans. The process is so perfect. If you take the process, you will also understand. So for this teaching this process, we are opening center here. You all Indians, your chance is first. So why don't you cooperate and learn? It is open to everyone. It is not a secret thing. So I invite you on Tuesday.

[aside:] At what time we are going to...?

Bali-mardana: Seven-thirty.

Prabhupāda: Seven-thirty, evening. Please come. The temple will be open and you come, you try to understand. You invite us occasionally in this big place. We have no big place now. We have got very small place. But we shall be very glad to speak about Kṛṣṅa consciousness Movement.

So everything is... That I was going to explain. There was no time.

mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṅu [Bg 7.1]

Kṛṣṅa is teaching, mayy āsakta: "Just try to increase your attachment for Me." There is a process, how to increase attachment. Mayy āsakta. So attachment process. Attachment process is,

ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā tato 'nartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt tato niṣṭhā tataḥ rucis athāsaktis tato bhāvas... sādhakānām ayaṁ premṅaḥ prādurbhāve bhavet kramaḥ [Cc Madhya 23.14-15]

[In the beginning there must be faith. Then one becomes interested in associating with pure devotees. Thereafter one is initiated by the spiritual master and executes the regulative principles under his orders. Thus one is freed from all unwanted habits and becomes firmly fixed in devotional service. Thereafter, one develops taste and attachment. This is the way of sādhana-bhakti, the execution of devotional service according to the regulative principles. Gradually emotions intensify, and finally there is an awakening of love. This is the gradual development of love of Godhead for the devotee interested in Kṛṣṅa consciousness.]

There is a process. If you are actually serious, then come to the process, ādau śraddhā. Just like you are hearing me, kindly. It is called śraddhā. You have got little śraddhā. Next stage is sādhu-saṅga [Cc Madhya 22.83].

[The root cause of devotional service to Lord Kṛṣṅa is association with advanced devotees. Even when one’s dormant love for Kṛṣṅa awakens, association with devotees is still most essential.]

Those who are actually practicing Kṛṣṅa consciousness, just associate with them. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā [Cc Madhya 23.14-15]. Then, if you try to follow how they are... Just like they are chanting Hare Kṛṣṅa, Hare Kṛṣṅa, Kṛṣṅa Kṛṣṅa, Hare Hare / Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma... If you follow the bhajana-kriyā, then anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Anartha, unwanted things.

Just like these four things of sinful activities—illicit sex and intoxication, gambling and meat-eating—these are anartha. Anartha means it is not necessary at all. It is not that without meat-eating, we can[not] live. Thousands and thousands in India, eighty percent, they are strictly vegetarian. That does not mean they are dying. Here also, in Western countries, I have got thousands and thousands of disciples. They have given up all these things. That does not mean that they have become dead. No. It is anartha, unwanted.

So if you take to bhajana-kriyā, then automatically this anartha also will disappear. Anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. That means you become purified. Tato niṣṭhā. Then you will have firm conviction. Tato niṣṭhā tato ruciḥ. Then taste, taste will increase. Athāsaktiḥ. Then āsakti. That is Kṛṣṅa speaking in the Seventh Chapter, mayy āsakta-manāḥ. We have to increase our attachment for Kṛṣṅa. And this is the process. So there is process. If you actually serious, you can take the process, and you will be successful.

Indian guest (3): One more question, Swāmījī. When a person gradually go along the path and have, in the process, have some achievements, don't you agree that chanting is not the only attachment, or rather to know Kṛṣṅa? He can...

Prabhupāda: There may be other methods. I can understand you. But the śāstra says, "No other method will be successful." Kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā [Cc Ādi 17.21].

[In this Age of Kali there is no other means, no other means, no other means for self-realization than chanting the holy name, chanting the holy name, chanting the holy name of Lord Hari.]

Karma, jñāna, yoga. So therefore three times stressed, nāsty eva. "By karma you will not be successful." Time is different. Just like you go to a drug shop, there are hundreds and thousands of medicines. They are all medicine, but the medicine which is prescribed by the physician for you, that is your medicine. So in this age this is the medicine. There may be other methods, they are all bona fide methods, but they will not be successful. This method will be successful. You have to take in that light.

Indian guest (4): Do you give any importance of coming in, sighting of the soul in the front, and can a person not act as a human being, but [indistinct]...

Prabhupāda: Well, you are in my front. You are a soul. What is the difficulty? Everyone, you are all souls. You are in my front. Simply you are dressed only. Suppose you come in a dress. You are my friend. Do I see your dress or you? Paṅḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ. Vidyā-vinaya-sampanne [Bg 5.18].

[The humble sage, by virtue of true knowledge, sees with equal vision a learned and gentle brāhmaṅa, a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog-eater [outcaste]]

You are reading Bhagavad-gītā. You know all these things. When you are learned, you won't see the dress. You will see the soul.

Indian guest (3): My real object... Still, I want to... The chanting would be the primary stage, but it is not the stage that it will stay on all the time for a person who is really seeing the truth.

Prabhupāda: No. If you take this process, you will come to the perfectional stage very easily.

Indian guest (3): But do you agree or not?

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Indian guest (3): That chanting is not the stage you have to preserve all the time or practice all the time?

Śyāmasundara: That as you become as more advanced in spiritual life, your chanting drops away.

Prabhupāda: No. no, chanting is eternal. After you become perfect, you will also chant more loudly.

Indian guest (5): I have one question. Swāmījī, you accept Kṛṣṅa as the supreme glory...

Prabhupāda: I do not accept; the whole Vedas accept.

Indian guest (6): But in our Hindu religions, there are gods and goddesses. There are so many.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That is for material purpose. Those who are after material benefits, they can worship different demigods. That is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā. That is the point. You are reading Bhagavad-gītā. You should note all these things. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānā yajante anya-devatāḥ [Bg 7.20]. Those who are bewildered or lost of intelligence, they go to worship other demigods.

Indian guest (5): Basically we accept...

Prabhupāda: So those who are interested in spiritual salvation, they need not worship other demigods. But those who are interested for material profit, they can worship demigods. Yajante anya-devatāḥ. Karmaṅā..., there is a verse. Just to have immediate result of material profit, the Vedas recommend, "All right, you worship this demigod, that demigod." So our concern is we don't want any material profit; we want Kṛṣṅa. Therefore we do not require to worship demigods.

Indian guest (7): But why not Viṣṅu?

Prabhupāda: Viṣṅu and Kṛṣṅa the same. Viṣṅu and Kṛṣṅa the same. Kṛṣṅa is viṣṅu-tattva.

Indian guest (7): Rāma and...

Prabhupāda: Rāma also. We worship Rāma also. Rāma, viṣṅu-tattva.

Indian guest (7): Because they are the incarnation of the Viṣṅu. The person Himself is the reincarnation of the Viṣṅu.

Prabhupāda: So whatever is... That is your conclusion. But Kṛṣṅa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg 7.7].

[O conqueror of wealth [Arjuna], there is no Truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread.]

Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate [Bg 10.8].

[I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who know this perfectly engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts.]

So if we have to believe Bhagavad-gītā, then Kṛṣṅa is the Supreme. That's all.

Now have kīrtana. [end]