Room Conversation with George Harrison & the Shankars
Prabhupāda: ...big, big palace.
George: Yeah. Uhh, this is Lakshmi Shankar, Viji Shankar and Sooma Shankar...
Prabhupāda: I see.
George: ...and Dori.
[brief Hindi exchange with Shankars; laughter]
Prabhupāda: So, you're keeping all right, healthy?
George: Just about.
Prabhupāda:
ātmānaṁ sarvato rakṣet tato dharmaṁ tato dhanam ātmānaṁ vikṛti sati tato kutaṁ tato dharmam
Ātmā means the body, mind or soul. Ātmā. All these can be designated as ātmā. Those who are in bodily concept of life, for them ātmā means this body. Those who are in mental concept of life—somebody, they think the mind is the soul—so for them, ātmā means mind. And those who are actually in knowledge, the ātmā means the soul. In the śāstra there says that either of these, ātmānaṁ sarvato rakṣet, you must first take care of, of this ātmā.
Then tato dharma: then you must take care of your religious principles. Ātmānaṁ sarvato rakṣet tato dharmaṁ tato dhanam. Then you try to protect your money. [laughter] Because ātmānaṁ vikṛti sati, if your atma is in disturbed condition, tato dharmaṁ tato dhanam, then where you keep your religion and money? So ātmānaṁ sarvato rakṣet.
Śyāmasundara: Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Śyāmasundara: I've got I got a letter from Zaehner today...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: ...where he not only apologizes, but he begs you to see him. [laughs]
[aside to George:] That professor we talked about last time, who wrote all those nasty things, that Kṛṣṅa's immoral and all.
George: No, what happened?
Śyāmasundara: We were talking about it last time you were here.
Prabhupāda: Let me see what is letter...
Śyāmasundara: I'll read it. [laughter] He said, "Thank you for your letter of 28th July. You've put me in a rather embar..." This is a letter that Mukunda wrote to him. He's addressing, "Dear Mr. Grant." "You've put me in a rather embarrassing position, since I have only just received a long letter from, I think, the President of your London center," Satsvarūpa, "strongly criticizing me for what the Observer alleges. I said at a meeting of the World Council of Faiths at Bristol…" Oh, I "…what the Observer alleges I said at a meeting of the World Council of Faiths at Bristol.
He apparently thinks I am a narādhama, among other things," [laughter] "and clearly a most undesirable person in every way. It is true that I quoted passages from the Upanisads and the Gītā which imply that the mukta is…, that the mukta regards good and evil…," no, "disregards good and evil, and pointed out the dangers of this doctrine if it fell into the hands of people who have received no instruction. I also pointed out that this is equally true of the Bible, which is…, which was, of course, not reported in the Observer.
In view of all this, I wonder if your master is still interested in seeing me. I rather doubt whether we would have very much in common, since there would appear to be little common ground between one who describes himself as 'His Divine Grace,' who is in the direct disciplic line from Kṛṣṅa, and one who, with the best will in the world, cannot but be bewildered by the proliferation of persons who make similar claims on behalf of themselves. However, if you still feel that a meeting would serve any useful purpose, please let me know."
Prabhupāda: Hmm.
Śyāmasundara: "Yours sincerely, R. C. Zaehner."
Prabhupāda: So if you can read the letter which Satsvarūpa has sent him, they…, they can hear.
Śyāmasundara: Oh, I guess you want to hear the letter that...
Prabhupāda: It is in response to that letter.
Śyāmasundara: This is in response to this.
Devotee (1): Yeah.
George: Well what did he say, the professor?
Śyāmasundara: He, he accused Kṛṣṅa of being immoral. [laughter]
George: On what grounds?
Śyāmasundara: Because He was killing...
George: On the battlefield?
Śyāmasundara: Yeah, and 'cause He didn't regard evil and…, good and evil, that they were both the same.
Prabhupāda: Who says things like that?
Revatīnandana: Exactly. And he says "amoral"– or neither immoral nor moral, but without morality.
Śyāmasundara: And it says, "Dear Professor Zaehner," and Prabhupāda actually wrote the letter, but Satsvarūpa, his secretary, signed it. It says, "I am writing in response to your recent address to the World Congress of Faiths, which was attended by several of our members and which was subsequently reported in the Observer, 22nd July 1973, under the title 'The Logic of Charles Manson.' In your speech you have accused Kṛṣṅa, the speaker of the Vedic text Bhagavad-gītā, as immoral. Exactly how you have tried to substantiate that Kṛṣṅa is the teacher of an immoral and amoral dangerous doctrine is a matter which can be discussed another time. But I wish to simply point out to you that having accused Kṛṣṅa, you have as such fallen into a position of being very strongly accused yourself by Lord Kṛṣṅa Himself. As He has stated in the Bhagavad-gītā…"
[to devotee:] You want to read that?
Pradyumna: Yeah.
na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ māyayāpahṛta-jñānā āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ [Bg 7.15]
[Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, lowest among mankind, whose knowledge is stolen by illusion, and who partake of the atheistic nature of demons, do not surrender unto Me.]
Śyāmasundara: " 'Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, lowest among mankind, whose knowledge is stolen by... ' "
Prabhupāda: He is actual [indistinct] the lowest of the mankind.
Śyāmasundara: Narādhamāḥ, that's what he…, that means "lowest of mankind." " '…whose knowledge is stolen by illusion, and who partake of the atheistic nature of demons do not surrender unto Me.' In other words, Lord Kṛṣṅa is stating that if one is in opposition to Him, he must fall into one of these four categories: either he is grossly foolish, like the ass or the rascal person; or he is the lowest of mankind, without religion, although acting as a civilized person; or he may have a good intelligence or academic standing, but his intelligence has been stolen away by illusion; or he is an outright demon bent on the destruction of mankind. So you are accused by this statement of the Bhagavad-gītā as belonging to one of these four categories of miscreants.
"Neither can Kṛṣṅa's charge against you be taken lightly. Kṛṣṅa's statements are supported by all the ācāryas, or saintly persons and spiritual masters of the Vedic philosophy. Going back hundreds and thousands of years, those who are the molders of the Hindu or Indian destiny, such as Madhva, Rāmānuja, Viṣṅu Svāmī, Nimbārka, as well as Vyāsadeva, Brahmā, Nārada, and in the recent age Lord Caitanya and the disciplic succession up to our own spiritual master, His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, all accept Lord Kṛṣṅa as the Absolute Truth, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, whose statements are taken as the highest authority. Even Śaṅkarācārya, the leader of the impersonalist school of Vedic thought, has accepted, nārāyaṅaḥ paro 'vyaktāt: 'Nārāyaṅa, Lord Kṛṣṅa, is above this material manifestation.' Whatever Kṛṣṅa says is accepted as truth by virtually all the leaders of Vedic philosophy since time immemorial.
"So we are laymen, and we have to choose. We are faced with two accusations: yours against Lord Kṛṣṅa as being immoral, and Lord Kṛṣṅa's accusation against you as a rascal," [laughter] "the lowest of mankind, whose intelligence is stolen, and of the nature of a demon."
Prabhupāda: We are placing ourselves laymen. Now, whose accusation we shall accept—either Kṛṣṅa's or yours? That is our problem.
Śyāmasundara: "As we have just explained, Kṛṣṅa's description of your miscreant position is supported by all the stalwart ācāryas without exception. Nor can we take the view that the above-named philosophers are sectarian in their support of Kṛṣṅa as the Supreme Truth. You are taken as a great Sanskrit scholar, but apparently you have not noted the commentary on Bhagavad-gītā in Sanskrit by His Holiness Rāmānuja Ācārya.
At every verse Rāmānuja has presented many quotes from the Upaniṣads to support his favoring Kṛṣṅa's position as the very source of knowledge and liberation. So Kṛṣṅa's position is very solid among those who are the most reputable scholars. But who will agree with you and your accusation against Lord Kṛṣṅa? The Vedic scripture Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam clearly states that only men of a like nature to yours would join you in taking such an infamous position."
Prabhupāda: Śva vid-varaha ustra kharaiḥ. Read it.
Pradyumna:
śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ na yat-karṅa-pathopeto jātu nāma gadāgrajaḥ [SB 2.3.19]
Śyāmasundara: " 'Men who are like dogs, hogs, camels and asses praise those men who never listen to the transcendental pastimes of Lord Sri Kṛṣṅa, the deliverer from evils.' In other words, although you have become a leader of the so-called learned society of men," he's a big professor at Oxford, "because you are opposed to glorifying Lord Kṛṣṅa, your followers are not actually to the human standard," [laughter] "but are no better than the above-named animals.
"According to the Bhāgavatam, if one is essentially godless and opposed to acknowledging the supremacy of the Supreme Lord Kṛṣṅa, then although he may be big or great in the world, his greatness is no more than the greatness of a big animal who is looked up to by smaller animals. By the estimation of scriptures and ācāryas, such a so-called big man is never given a place in the category of man on account of his atheistic temperament. So a sane man seeking truth will certainly be inclined to follow the standard accepted version of the greatest philosophers and true humanitarians in the history of the science of God. But who will follow you in your accusation against Lord Kṛṣṅa?
"It is unfortunate that you have assumed a conversant authoritative attitude towards the Vedic scriptures. To have actual knowledge of Kṛṣṅa and the Bhagavad-gītā is not such an easy thing. Unfortunately, many people have no doubt assumed that you know all about Kṛṣṅa and the Bhagavad-gītā, because of your holding a professorship in Eastern Religion at Oxford University and because you have published a number of books. But that is not the criteria for understanding Kṛṣṅa. As Lord Kṛṣṅa states in the Bhagavad-gītā,"
Pradyumna:
manuṣyāṅāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye yatatām api siddhānāṁ kaścin māṁ vetti tattvataḥ [Bg 7.3]
Śyāmasundara: " 'Out of many thousands among men, one may endeavor for perfection, and of those who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth.'
It is not that one can be a cigarette smoker and liquor drinker and habituated to common vices and yet speak something about Kṛṣṅa. Even among those who are above all these things, who are siddhas, perfect souls, hardly one of such siddhas can understand Kṛṣṅa. So because you are not even trying to become a siddha, we have to conclude by honest reason that your statements about Lord Kṛṣṅa and Bhagavad-gītā have no value.
"Your version that Kṛṣṅa is acting immorally is not true. Arjuna, the original disciple of Bhagavad-gītā, who heard it directly and understood it from Kṛṣṅa Himself, spoke as follows:"
Pradyumna:
paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg 10.12]
[Arjuna said: You are the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal divine person. You are the primal God, transcendental and original, and You are the unborn and all-pervading beauty. All the great sages such as Nārada, Asita, Devala, and Vyāsa proclaim this of You, and now You Yourself are declaring it to me.]
Śyāmasundara: " 'Arjuna said: You are the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal divine person.' Here the word pavitraṁ means 'the purest.' So Arjuna is addressing Kṛṣṅa as the purest, the Supreme Pure, and this is your rascaldom, that you are accusing the most pure as immoral. In the Bhāgavatam it is described that when the witch Pūtanā came to Kṛṣṅa, she tried to kill Him during His childhood pastimes by smearing her breast with poison and offering it to baby Kṛṣṅa to suck.
Kṛṣṅa not only sucked her breast but sucked out her life air, and thus the demon gave up her life. But Kṛṣṅa is so moral that although Pūtanā came to kill Him, because He accepted her as a mother and took milk from her breast, Kṛṣṅa awarded her liberation after death and gave her the same exalted place as His own loving mother, Yaśodā. Also, on the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra, where the Bhagavad-gītā was spoken, those who came to fight with Kṛṣṅa and were killed by Him were granted eternal liberation in the spiritual sky.
"Because He is absolute, whatever Kṛṣṅa does is the highest morality and works factually for everyone's ultimate happiness and well-being. Kṛṣṅa's pastimes are hardly understandable to the nondevotee, that these are the authorized descriptions of the Vedic literature. The people in general should be warned of your position so that you will not mislead them by misinterpretation. They should not be baffled by your outward appearance as a great scholar. If we consult those who are truly authorities, the great ācāryas, we understand your position is very unfavorable and can only be relieved by your attempting to publicly rectify accusations so foolishly made against the name and words of Lord Kṛṣṅa in Bhagavad-gītā. Yours sincerely, Satsvarūpa." Also, that Alistair Hardy wrote a nice letter.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. Yes.
Śyāmasundara: Today.
George: Who is Alistair Hardy?
Devotee (2): He's [indistinct] a religious experience researcher.
Śyāmasundara: He's just saying that he'd like to come again sometime.
Prabhupāda: I shall invite him again. Lord Brockway, he also came. Fenner Brockway.
Śyāmasundara: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: He, and also [indistinct].
Revatīnandana: House of Lords. House of Lords.
Prabhupāda: Now I propose to start a Society. I will explain to you, Śyāmasundara, [clears throat] The Society of the Sinless Man. How do you like this idea?
George: Good idea, but mightn't get many members. [laughter]
Śyāmasundara: No, but everyone will say, "Oh, I am sinless," [laughter] "I'll join." Otherwise if we go to them and they'll have to say, "Oh, then I am a sinner."
Prabhupāda: Yesterday, Doctor Sumehta, Schumacher he came.
Śyāmasundara: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: Another, John…?
Śyāmasundara: Papworth.
Prabhupāda: Papworth. So we have three our stock. So [chuckling] they agreed half, but not fully, that what is sinful life. And unless people become sinless, it is not possible to understand what is God. That's a fact. Because as we have stated,
paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg 10.12]
[Arjuna said: You are the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal divine person. You are the primal God, transcendental and original, and You are the unborn and all-pervading beauty. All the great sages such as Nārada, Asita, Devala, and Vyāsa proclaim this of You, and now You Yourself are declaring it to me.]
So Kṛṣṅa, God, He is pavitraṁ paramaṁ, the Supreme Pure. So without becoming pure, nobody can understand what is the nature of God. Just like without becoming fire, you cannot enter into fire. That is also confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā:
yeṣāṁ anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṅya-karmaṅām te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ [Bg 7.28]
[Persons who have acted piously in previous lives and in this life, whose sinful actions are completely eradicated and who are freed from the duality of delusion, engage themselves in My service with determination.]
So people are indulging in sinful activity, so in that position it is not possible to understand God. So our this Kṛṣṅa consciousness movement is purifying. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says,
ceto-darpaṅa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṅaṁ śreyaḥ-kairava-candrikā-vitaraṅaṁ vidyā-vadhū-jīvanam ānandāmbudhi-vardhanaṁ prati-padaṁ pūrṅāmṛtāsvādanaṁ sarvātma-snapanaṁ paraṁ vijayate śrī-kṛṣṅa-saṅkīrtanam [Cc Antya 20.12]
[Let there be all victory for the chanting of the holy name of Lord Kṛṣṅa, which can cleanse the mirror of the heart and stop the miseries of the blazing fire of material existence. That chanting is the waxing moon that spreads the white lotus of good fortune for all living entities. It is the life and soul of all education. The chanting of the holy name of Kṛṣṅa expands the blissful ocean of transcendental life. It gives a cooling effect to everyone and enables one to taste full nectar at every step.]
So our movement is… It is very difficult to find out in this age actually a sinless man; therefore we are giving chance of hearing this mahā-mantra,
harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam [Cc Ādi 17.21]
[In this Age of Kali there is no other means, no other means, no other means for self-realization than chanting the holy name, chanting the holy name, chanting the holy name of Lord Hari.]
So if one is given this chance, as we are actually experiencing… When I started this movement in 1966 I simply, you knowing about that, that Tompkinson Square? I was simply chanting Hare Kṛṣṅa, Hare Kṛṣṅa, that's all, for three hours, from two 'til five. And the boys and girls, they are coming, dancing. In this way gradually they came. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that ceto-darpana-marjanam: this process, simply by hearing Hare Kṛṣṅa mahā-mantra, the heart will be cleansed, ceto-darpaṅa-mārjanaṁ. Darpaṅa. Darpaṅa means "mirror." Just like if you want to see your face, you have a clear mirror, you can see exactly your face. Similarly, when our this cetah, which is full of dirty things, if it is polished, if it is cleansed, then we can see our real face, what I am. That is, Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, ceto-darpaṅa-mārjanaṁ. And as soon as one understands what he is, then immediately his all problems are solved.
Ceto-darpaṅa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṅaṁ. We are suffering just like in the blazing forest fire. When there is fire in the forest all the animals become perturbed, disturbed, especially the snakes. Other animals, they have got legs, they can jump over. But the snakes, they have to crawl. So when there is fire in the forest, the dry foliage that catch fire, so these snakes, they die first. They cannot jump; they have to crawl. And the snake means envious. The snake business is envious. Without any fault it will bite, and the man will die. Envious. Therefore Cāṅakya Paṅḍita has said,
sarpaḥ krūraḥ khalaḥ krūraḥ sarpāt krūrataraḥ khalaḥ mantrauṣadhi-vaśaḥ sarpaḥ khalaḥ kena nivāryate [Nīti Śāstra]
That there are two jealous, envious beings: one is the snake and another is the…, a man envious. So the envious man is more dangerous than the snake. Why? That you can bring under control the snake by herbs and mantra. Still in India there are experts who can by mantra can catch snake, venomous snake. There is a art. So it can be under, brought under control. But the envious man cannot be, I mean, brought under control; therefore he is more dangerous. So we are living in such world.
In another place, Prahlāda Mahārāja has said that when his father was killed, Hiraṅyakaśipu, he requested Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva that "Now kindly mitigate Your anger, because nobody is sorry for killing my father, that he was just like a snake and scorpion." So sādhur api...
[aside:] Bring me verse.
That even sādhu, they also take pleasure when a snake or scorpion is killed. A sādhu, modeta, vṛścika-sarpa-hatyā [SB 7.9.14]. A sādhu does not want killing of any living entity, but when a scorpion or a snake is killed, even one sādhu also takes pleasure, "Yes, it is right." They are so dangerous.
So the whole world is now full with krūraḥ, sarpāt krūrataraḥ khalaḥ, envious. Whole world is surcharged with enviousness. Nation to nation, person to person, there is competition. So how they can be happy? Therefore Kṛṣṅa…, Caitanya Mahāprabhu suggests that "Let them chant Hare Kṛṣṅa mahā-mantra, then this blazing forest fire will be extinguished." Ceto-darpaṅa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṅaṁ. Then śreyaḥ-kairava-candrikā-vitaraṅaṁ, that actual life of knowledge will begin. And at last He says, paraṁ vijayate śrī-kṛṣṅa-saṅkīrtanam. And in the Bhāgavat also it is confirmed,
kīrtanād eva kṛṣṅasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet [SB 12.3.51]
[My dear King, although Kali-yuga is an ocean of faults, there is still one good quality about this age: Simply by chanting the Hare Kṛṣṅa mahā-mantra, one can become free from material bondage and be promoted to the transcendental kingdom.]
Simply by chanting.
So those who are actually thinking of the welfare of the whole human society, they should combinedly try how to spread this Kṛṣṅa consciousness movement, chanting of Hare Kṛṣṅa mahā-mantra. People may simply have some chance to hear. Then gradually everything will become nice. So this is our mission. We are trying to give chance people to hear harer nāma. Śravaṅaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṅoḥ. It is not that as so many, this pantheist or the so-called Māyāvādīs, they say that "You can chant any name. You can…" No. That is not. Śāstra says, śravaṅaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṅoḥ, or Viṣṅu. Harer nāma: the name of Hari, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Not anyone's, everyone's name. No. So that is also another enviousness: "Why Kṛṣṅa's nāma should be chanted? We have got our own God." So envious, even to Kṛṣṅa. These are the difficulties.
Still, it is our duty, as it is described in the śāstras, to give everyone the chance of hearing this holy name of the Lord: Hare Kṛṣṅa, Hare Kṛṣṅa, Kṛṣṅa Kṛṣṅa, Hare Hare / Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. So begin some kṛṣṅa-kīrtana. So we chant? Yes? Begin saṅkīrtana. Bring kartālas.
[Śrīla Prabhupāda begins clapping. Chanting lasts about 8 minutes, concluding with Prabhupāda chanting prema dhvani.]
Thank you very much.
[devotees offer obeisances]
So, prasādam is ready?
Devotee (4): Revatīnandana?
Revatīnandana: It's all cooked.
Devotee (4): Downstairs?
Revatīnandana: It should be in the kitchen and maybe keeping warm in the oven, the small stove. You know those two stoves? The white stove in the oven.
Śyāmasundara: Can we play the tapes?
Prabhupāda: What?
Śyāmasundara: George has brought a tape of those songs like Jaya Jagadīśa Hare...
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Śyāmasundara: ...and other songs that they made...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: ...with Ravi.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes?
[Hindi exchange while waiting for tape to play]
Śyāmasundara: Turn it up.
[first song—Jaya Jagadīśa Hare—about 4 minutes.]
Prabhupāda: Jaya Jagadīśa Hare. Very nice.
Śyāmasundara: There's more songs?
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Devotee: There's more.
[another piece begins, with flute introduction]
Prabhupāda: Who has played that flute?
George: Hariprasad Chaurasia
Śyāmasundara: About Kṛṣṅa, this song. Ravi wrote this song.
[Song is Indian-style music arrangement with English lyrics. Examples of lyrics: "Kṛṣṅa, where are You?" "I hear Your flute," "Please come wipe my tears."
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṅa-pyāri?
Devotees: "Where are You?"
Prabhupāda: Oh, "Kṛṣṅa where You are?"
[Third piece begins—music background for spoken English lyrics: "Where has my glorious Kṛṣṅa gone, my only love? Without Him I feel so restless. There's no peace, no joy. Aching for Him, I cry out, but He does not hear. O my cruel love." Song then continues in Hindi.]
Prabhupāda: This is in Hindi.
Śyāmasundara: George has produced this record.
[Another piece begins. English introduction lyrics to string background: "You came to me in my dreams, O my beloved Kṛṣṅa, and whispered such sweet and tender things to me. I awoke startled: 'Where is my love? Where has He gone, my Kṛṣṅa? Oh, how can I face this night alone?' " Song continues in Hindi.]
Prabhupāda: [indistinct aside] Is it open? What is it?
George: The Kṛṣṅa song...
[music begins; background conversation between devotee and George]
Śyāmasundara: Same Kṛṣṅa song, but in Western style.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
[Music arrangement is Western style, lyrics in English: "I am missing You, O Kṛṣṅa. Where are You? Though I can't see You, I hear Your flute all around. Please come wipe my tears, and make me smile.]
Śyāmasundara: That's all.
Prabhupāda: There is a verse,
he rādhe vraja-devike ca lalite he nanda-sūno kutaḥ śrī-govardhana-pādapa-tale kālindī-vane kutaḥ ghoṣantāv iti sarvato vraja-pure khedair mahā-vihvalau vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau śrī jīva-gopālakau [Ṣaḍ-gosvāmy-aṣṭaka 8]
All the Gosvāmīs, they were executing their devotional service in Vṛndāvana, and this is their devotional attitude: he rādhe—"O Rādhārāṅī"; vraja-devike—"O the gopīs"; he rādhe vraja-devike, he nanda-sūno kutaḥ—"O the son of Nanda Mahārāja, Kṛṣṅa, where you are all?"
Śyāmasundara: Where you are…?
Prabhupāda: All.
Śyāmasundara: All.
Prabhupāda: Because Kṛṣṅa is always engaged with the gopīs, so the Gosvāmīs, they are searching, "Now I have come to Vṛndāvana. Where you are?" He rādhe vraja-devike ca lalite he nanda-sūno kutaḥ. Kutaḥ means "Where you are all?" Just like the same thing: "Kṛṣṅa, where You are?" [laughter] It is very nice. Vira. This bhajana is recommended by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, to feel separation for Kṛṣṅa. That is best motive, to feel separation. The more you feel…
So just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu demonstrated, for want of Kṛṣṅa He was becoming mad, ecstatic. This is Rādhārāṅī's attitude when Kṛṣṅa went to Vṛndāvana, er, Mathurā, leaving the gopīs in Vṛndāvana. So Kṛṣṅa knew that "All the gopīs will be overwhelmed on account of My separation," so He sent Uddhava to pacify them. At that time Rādhārāṅī displayed just like mad. So these songs are following the footsteps of Rādhārāṅī, feeling the separation of Kṛṣṅa. I think this morning I have explained one verse,
ayi dīna-dayārdra nātha he mathurā-nātha kadāvalokyase [Cc Antya 8.34]
So this bhajana in separation of Kṛṣṅa, that is our Gauḍīya Vaiṣṅava philosophy: to feel separation from Kṛṣṅa. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, govinda-viraheṅa me.
yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṅa cakṣuṣā prāvṛṣāyitam śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ govinda-viraheṅa me [Śikṣāṣṭaka verse 7]
Yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṅa, "In one moment is appearing to me just like twelve years," yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṅa cakṣuṣā prāvṛṣāyitam, "and tears coming down just like torrents of rain." Śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ: "The whole world appears to be vacant." Why? Govinda-viraheṅa me: "On account of separation from Govinda." So this bhajana is very perfect bhajana: feeling separation of Kṛṣṅa, "Kṛṣṅa, where You are? Kṛṣṅa, where You are?" This is our bhajana. It is not that "Kṛṣṅa I have now seen; my business is finished." No. [laughter] We should always feel separation. That is best. That will advance us in Kṛṣṅa consciousness very nicely.
So it is very nicely sung. So always feel separation of Kṛṣṅa. That will make our life very successful in understanding Kṛṣṅa.
George: I think a lot..., a lot of people are gonna hear Kṛṣṅa's name.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
George: A lot of people are gonna hear Kṛṣṅa's name maybe for the first time, through that song.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. But they will be benefited. You have done nice. You are distributing Kṛṣṅa's name and feeling separation. Which will have effect to the people. And Kṛṣṅa name and Kṛṣṅa is not different. Kṛṣṅa is absolute. So when we utter Kṛṣṅa's name, that means Kṛṣṅa is on my tongue, present. So, ataḥ kṛṣ..., uh,
nāma cintāmaṅiḥ kṛṣṅaś caitanya-rasa-vigrahaḥ [Cc Madhya 17.133]
[The holy name of Kṛṣṅa is transcendentally blissful. It bestows all spiritual benedictions, for it is Kṛṣṅa Himself, the reservoir of all pleasure. Kṛṣṅa’s name is complete, and it is the form of all transcendental mellows. It is not a material name under any condition, and it is no less powerful than Kṛṣṅa Himself. Since Kṛṣṅa’s name is not contaminated by the material qualities, there is no question of its being involved with māyā. Kṛṣṅa’s name is always liberated and spiritual; it is never conditioned by the laws of material nature. This is because the name of Kṛṣṅa and Kṛṣṅa Himself are identical.]
The name cintāmaṅi, spiritual. Nāma cintāmaṅiḥ kṛṣṅaś caitanya, full spiritual, conscious. Nāma cintāmaṅiḥ kṛṣṅaś caitanya-rasa-vigrahaḥ: the personality of all mellows. Nitya śuddho..., nitya śuddha-mukto, abhinnatvān nāma-nāminoḥ: there is no difference between the name and the person Kṛṣṅa. There is no difference. Therefore if we chant Kṛṣṅa's name, especially in vira, in separation, that is the greatest perfection of life.
nāma cintāmaṅiḥ kṛṣṅaś caitanya-rasa-vigrahaḥ pūrṅaḥśuddho nitya-mukto [Cc Madhya 17.133]
Purna. As Kṛṣṅa is purna,
pūrṅasya pūrṅam ādāya pūrṅam evāvaśiṣyate [Īśo Invocation]
[The Personality of Godhead is perfect and complete, and because He is completely perfect, all emanations from Him, such as this phenomenal world, are perfectly equipped as complete wholes. Whatever is produced of the Complete Whole is also complete in itself. Because He is the Complete Whole, even though so many complete units emanate from Him, He remains the complete balance.]
Oṁ… What is that?
pūrṅam adaḥ pūrṅam idaṁ pūrṅāt pūrṅam udacyate [Īśo Invocation]
That is the Upaniṣad, Īśa Upaniṣad.
pūrṅasya pūrṅam ādāya pūrṅam evāvaśiṣyate [Īśo Invocation]
So Kṛṣṅa is pūrṅam. Kṛṣṅa's name is also pūrṅam, complete. So chanting Kṛṣṅa's name, we get complete benefit as by meeting Kṛṣṅa. As by meeting Kṛṣṅa. This will be realized as we go on thinking of Kṛṣṅa. So it is very nice attempt.
Mālatī: [arrival of prasādam] That's Revatīnandana Mahārāja.
Prabhupāda: So Revatīnandana Mahārāja, what you have done? [laughter]
Revatīnandana: You'll have to taste it.
Prabhupāda: No, which one? Which preparation you have made?
Śyāmasundara: All are his.
Prabhupāda: All? Everything?
Śyāmasundara: Everything except the purīs.
Prabhupāda: The samosā also yours? Ohhh. [light laughter] Very good. Now, begin. Prasāda prāpti-mātreṅa bhoktavyam. Take. Take. Begin. Yes.
George: On the last version of Kṛṣṅa-rāga[?], there's one of the devotees from the Los Angeles temple…
Prabhupāda: Oh.
George: …came to play kartālas. I forget his name. "Rent-a-kartāla." [laughter]
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṅa.
[break] …and this can be united again in Kṛṣṅa consciousness. This artificial division of human society can be united again on the platform of Kṛṣṅa consciousness. This United Nation program will not be successful. But on this platform of Kṛṣṅa consciousness there will be unity. This is practical. We have got so many devotees from different parts of the world, but they do not think anymore in terms of bodily conception. No. They have forgotten. Either they are Englishman or American or Canadian or Indian, they have forgotten. They are on the platform of thinking that "We are servant of Kṛṣṅa." Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. That is platform.
samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām [Bg 18.54]
[And of all yogīs, he who always abides in Me with great faith, worshiping Me in transcendental loving service, is most intimately united with Me in yoga and is the highest of all.]
Before coming to the bhakti platform, one has to pass through this platform, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu.
brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu [Bg 18.54]
This is the platform. So we have to purify our consciousness, material consciousness, that "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Englishman." No. This is only outward covering. But as spirit soul we are one. So this is called Brahman realization. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Ahaṁ American-asmi, Englishman-asmi—no. [laughter] "I am brahmāsmi." This is self-realization. This is self-realization, aham brahmāsmi: "I am spirit soul." So in that platform he is called purified.
So that is the definition of devotional service: sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ, when one becomes freed from all designations.
sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc Madhya 19.170]
[Bhakti, or devotional service, means engaging all our senses in the service of the Lord, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the master of all the senses. When the spirit soul renders service unto the Supreme, there are two side effects. One is freed from all material designations, and one’s senses are purified simply by being employed in the service of the Lord.]
Tat parat. Tattva means being connected with Kṛṣṅa, one becomes purified, nirmalam. And when one is purified, with the purified senses,
hṛṣīkeṅa hṛṣīkeśa- sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate [Cc Madhya 19.170]
This is bhakti. When our senses are purified from the material contamination… Senses, you cannot… The Māyāvādī philosopher says that "You stop the activities of senses." That is not possible. It is not possible. As living entity we must have our senses. Without senses we are dead stone. So senses must be there. You cannot avoid it. That Māyāvāda philosophy, that "Give up your desire," how can I give up desire? That is not possible. So that is not really salvation. Desire you must have, because as living entity there must be desire. So desire should be purified. Now we are desiring for our personal gratification. So when the desire will be utilized for serving Kṛṣṅa...
That is Rādhārāṅī's attitude. They are lamenting. The desire is "How to see Kṛṣṅa? You are gone from us. We do not find that how we can live, because without Your service, our life is useless." This is Kṛṣṅa consciousness. "Where You are, Kṛṣṅa? I cannot serve You, then what is my life, this useless life?" Huh? Govinda-viraheṅa me. Śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ: "The whole world, universe, is vacant without Your service, without seeing You." This is Kṛṣṅa consciousness.
So desire must be there. So desire must be utilized for Kṛṣṅa's satisfaction. Kṛṣṅendriya-prīti-vāñchā-tāre nāma 'prema. Ātmendriya-prīti-vāñchā-tāre nāma 'kāma' [Cc Ādi 4.165]. So therefore Nārada Muni recommends: when our desires are purified, then all the senses, they are also purified. So when our senses are engaged to fulfill the desires of Kṛṣṅa, hṛṣīkeṅa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate [Cc Madhya 19.170], that is bhakti.
[Bhakti, or devotional service, means engaging all our senses in the service of the Lord, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the master of all the senses. When the spirit soul renders service unto the Supreme, there are two side effects. One is freed from all material designations, and one’s senses are purified simply by being employed in the service of the Lord.]
This is the definition of bhakti.
anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam ānukūlyena kṛṣṅānu- śīlanaṁ bhaktir uttamā [Cc Madhya 19.167]
[When first-class devotional service develops, one must be devoid of all material desires, knowledge obtained by monistic philosophy, and fruitive action. The devotee must constantly serve Kṛṣṅa favorably, as Kṛṣṅa desires.]
Anyābhilāṣitā. We cannot give up desire. But desire for other things except Kṛṣṅa's service, that should be given up.
anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam [Cc Madhya 19.167]
We have got desire in jñāna platform, knowledge platform, speculative platform. We have desire on karma platform. Karma platform means desiring to gratify the senses. That is called karma platform. I do something, I get some profit, and that profit is engaged in my sense gratification. This is called karma. So similarly, there is activities in the jñāna platform. Jñāna platform means that I understand that I am not this body, that I am spirit soul, so my ultimate goal is to merge into the Supreme Spirit Soul. Unified. So that is also not perfect.
anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam [Cc Madhya 19.167]
The perfect platform is ānukūlyena kṛṣṅānu-śīlanaṁ: simply cultivation of Kṛṣṅa consciousness which is favorable to Kṛṣṅa. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṅānu-śīlanaṁ. That is bhakti, real. Just like Arjuna did. He decided in favor of Kṛṣṅa. In the beginning he was…, he decided in favor of himself: "Kṛṣṅa, I am not going to fight. No, no. It is not possible to kill my kinsmen." In this way he gave up the bow and the arrows and sat down. Kṛṣṅa wanted him to fight, so his decision was not in favor of Kṛṣṅa. His decision was in favor of his personal satisfaction. Therefore the whole Bhagavad-gītā was given lesson. And at last he agreed, "Yes. Now," kariṣye vacanaṁ tava, "Yes, now I will act in favor of You." So this is Kṛṣṅa consciousness.
So anyone has got some talent. So in the material world it is being utilized for…, in favor of his personal self. That is material way. So if you want perfection, then you should be acted in favor of Kṛṣṅa. That is Kṛṣṅa consciousness. The action is not to be changed, but instead of utilizing the talent in favor of my satisfaction—that is materialism—the same action when it is performed in favor of Kṛṣṅa's satisfaction, that is pure. This is the difference between material and spiritual.
ānukūlyena kṛṣṅānu- śīlanaṁ bhaktir uttamā [Cc Madhya 19.167]
[When first-class devotional service develops, one must be devoid of all material desires, knowledge obtained by monistic philosophy, and fruitive action. The devotee must constantly serve Kṛṣṅa favorably, as Kṛṣṅa desires.]
That is first-class devotion. Therefore Bhāgavata conclusion is that,
ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṅāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ [SB 1.2.13]
[O best among the twice-born, it is therefore concluded that the highest perfection one can achieve by discharging the duties prescribed for one's own occupation according to caste divisions and orders of life is to please the Personality of Godhead.]
Vibhāgaśaḥ, that according to Vedic civilization the divisions are varṅāśrama—four varṅas and four āśramas: brāhmaṅa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. So varṅāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. Each, each āśrama has got his particular duty. So how one can become successful in acting in his particular occupational duty? That is, Bhāgavata gives the decision,
ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṅāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ [SB 1.2.13]
You do not require to change your position. You remain in your position. If you are talented as a musician, you remain as musician, as artist. And whatever you are—as ordinary worker, as medical man, as scientist, as philosopher—whatever you may be, you stay in your position. There is no hard…, varṅāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. But if you want success in life, then,
ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṅāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya [SB 1.2.13]
Everyone has got his occupational duty, so saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṅam: if by your talent and by your work, if you can satisfy Kṛṣṅa, that is success. That is success. So you may remain in your position. There is no need of changing your position. Remain in. Svanuṣṭhita, you remain in your position, but from that position you try to satisfy Kṛṣṅa. Then everything success. That is saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṅam. There are many other verses like that.
idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥśrutasya vā sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca buddhi-dattayoḥ avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito yad-uttamaśloka-guṅānuvarṅanam [SB 1.5.22]
Uttamaśloka-guṅānuvarṅanam. Uttamaśloka is another name of Kṛṣṅa.
So by your musical talent if you simply glorify Kṛṣṅa, then your life is successful. This is Kṛṣṅa consciousness. So there is no change that you have to become a sannyāsi, you have to become…, give up this profession or become something else. No. You remain in your position. But with your talent, try to satisfy Kṛṣṅa. Try to glorify Kṛṣṅa. Then your talent is successful. It doesn't matter whether you are a musician or a war…, I mean to say, great soldier, warrior. Just like Arjuna.
He was a great soldier, warrior, fighter, and you are a musician. So if somebody thinks, "I am a musician. By singing nicely, Kṛṣṅa will be more satisfied," no. Kṛṣṅa will be satisfied, even fighting. Everything for Kṛṣṅa. So fighting is also not less than; otherwise how Arjuna became a great devotee of Kṛṣṅa? Kṛṣṅa certified, bhakto 'si, priyo 'si me: "You are My great devotee." But what did he do? He fought. Fought with who? With his own kinsmen, against his desire, against his will—but he wanted to satisfy Kṛṣṅa.
So anything you do, it doesn't matter, but do it for Kṛṣṅa. That is also confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā:
yat karoṣi yad juhoṣi yaj aśnāsi yat tapasyasi dadāsi yat kuruṣva tat mad-arpaṅam [Bg 9.27]
"Give it to Me." So this is the secret of Kṛṣṅa consciousness. Try to satisfy Kṛṣṅa from your position, then your life is successful, your profession is successful, everything is successful. And the spiritual platform, there is no such distinction that "Here is a person who is chanting Hare Kṛṣṅa mantra, and here is a person who is simply singing. Here is a person who is simply fighting." Materially there is difference, but when they are dovetailed in the service of Kṛṣṅa, they are all one.
ānukūlyena kṛṣṅānu- śīlanaṁ bhaktir uttamā [Cc Madhya 19.167]
Simply it has to be done in favor of Kṛṣṅa.
So you are all qualified artist, so by your art even in material platform you get so much adoration. Similarly, if you work in spiritual platform with the same art, this material adoration will be finished with the finishing of this body, but spiritual adoration, if you are recognized by Kṛṣṅa, then that will go with you. That will go with you.
sv-alpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt [Bg 2.40]
[In this endeavor there is no loss or diminution, and a little advancement on this path can protect one from the most dangerous type of fear.]
Spiritual asset is never lost. Spirit..., as spirit life is eternal, similarly, whatever you do for spiritual understanding, that is permanent. The Bhāgavat says therefore even by sentiment if one takes shelter of Kṛṣṅa but somehow or other he could not finish it—half way he fell down—still he is not loser. On the other hand, a person without Kṛṣṅa consciousness doing very nicely his job, but there is no gain. In Kṛṣṅa consciousness acting, even if you have done ten percent, twenty percent, there is greater success, because next life you will have to begin from twenty-one percent. But without Kṛṣṅa consciousness, from material consciousness whatever you do cent per cent success, that is finished with your body. Again you have to begin another chapter next life. These are the verdict of the śāstras.
So our only request is that whatever you do... Kṛṣṅa also says, yat karoṣi. He doesn't say that "You do this." Yat karoṣi: "Whatever you do, the result you give Me." Kuruṣva tad mad-arpaṅam [Bg 9.27]. He is begging, "Give Me." [laughter] Yes, "Give Me." [Hindi] You understand? No? You do not understand English?
Lady gUest: English, yes. I don't understand Sanskrit.
Prabhupāda: No. I was speaking in English.
Lady gUest: Yes, I understand English.
[pause]
Prabhupāda: So you can give her our addresses, in Paris, in Amsterdam. She is going there, if possible.
Śyāmasundara: Touring.
Lady gUest: Yes.
Prabhupāda: In Germany also.
Lady gUest: In Berlin.
Prabhupāda: What is our Berlin address?
Haṁsadūta: Kurfurstendamm. You know that street? Kurfurstendamm. It's 153.
Śyāmasundara: Kurfurstendamm?
Haṁsadūta: Yeah, 153.
Śyāmasundara: You have a place right on the main street? That's amazing. Main street of Berlin.
Prabhupāda: Oh. I have seen the picture. There is a broken church.
Haṁsadūta: Yeah, on that street.
Prabhupāda: Heh?
Haṁsadūta: On that street.
Śyāmasundara: Memorial to Gedachtniskirche.
Prabhupāda: That was broken during…?
Haṁsadūta: The war.
Prabhupāda: War?
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: By the Russians?
Haṁsadūta: I don't know.
Prabhupāda: Or by the Americans? [laughter]
Śyāmasundara: Everyone can walk by the church now. It's a memorial. They can walk by the church and say, "Oh, just see: God is dead. Now I can sin."
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Śyāmasundara: They left a memorial there of the broken church so that they will always remember that "God is dead, and we can go ahead and sin now. The church is broken."
Prabhupāda: Oh, they say like that?
Śyāmasundara: Well they…, I think psychologically at least. [laughter] The church is all broken, bombed out.
Prabhupāda: Then they, they do not know that… There it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā,
mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni nāhaṁ teṣu avasthitaḥ mayā sarvaṁ idaṁ tatam avyakta-mūrtinā [Bg 9.4]
[By Me, in My unmanifested form, this entire universe is pervaded. All beings are in Me, but I am not in them.]
"I am spread everywhere, and everything is resting on Me, but I am not there." [laughs] The church was resting on Kṛṣṅa, but when it is broken, He is not there. That he will be…, is foolish person, they do not know. He is not there. This is simultaneously: Kṛṣṅa is present everywhere and He is not there. That means unto the devotee He is there, and to the nondevotee He is not there. That is Kṛṣṅa's special power. When the nondevotees wants to break Kṛṣṅa's statue or Kṛṣṅa's temple, He is not there. So what he will do? That is a wrong conclusion, "Now Kṛṣṅa is dead." No. When they were breaking the church or breaking the Deity of Kṛṣṅa, He was not there. Nāhaṁ teṣu avasthitaḥ.
Śyāmasundara: He wasn't there in the beginning.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Śyāmasundara: He wasn't there to begin with.
Prabhupāda: No. That is Kṛṣṅa's inconceivable power.
Śyāmasundara: Hmm.
Prabhupāda: He can remain everywhere, simultaneously, and He can not remain there. Just like Hiraṅyakaśipu and Prahlāda. Hiraṅyakaśipu is thinking, "Where is your God? Where is your God?" Asking, challenging. And Prahlāda Mahārāja saying, "Yes. Here is my God." "Is it in the pillar?" "Yes." So the Hiraṅyakaśipu is saying that "What, what is this pillar, that there is God? What is this nonsense speaking?" But he is seeing there is God. [laughter]
This is God's in…, inconceivable power. So therefore he broke it, pillar, in anger. So…, so He was there for Prahlāda, but He was not there for Hiraṅyakaśipu. This is inconceivable. Simultaneously He is there and He is not there. When the demon is trying to break, He is not there, and when the devotee wants to worship, He is there. Simultaneously. So one has to learn this Kṛṣṅa science, then it will be all right. Otherwise, anyone can say anything. That is all. [laughter]
Jaya-hari: Instead of a church there is now a temple.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Jaya-hari: Instead of a church there is now a temple.
Prabhupāda: Temple?
Jaya-hari: Instead of a church being there, there is now a temple there.
Prabhupāda: In that church broken?
Jaya-hari: In Berlin.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Jaya-hari: On that same street.
Śyāmasundara: Not in that church. Down the street.
Jaya-hari: Down the street.
George: I think we must leave now.
Prabhupāda: Yes. [laughs] Thank you very much for your coming.
Revatīnandana: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda!
Prabhupāda: Whenever you find time, please come. It is your temple. [Hindi]
George: It wasn't my money that I bought it with. [laughter]
Prabhupāda: [laughs] Yes. It is Kṛṣṅa's money, [laughter] but you are the cashier. [laughter] [end]