Room Conversation

Prabhupāda: ...kaṅḍūtivan manasijaṁ viṣaheta dhīraḥ [SB 7.9.45].

[Sex life is compared to the rubbing of two hands to relieve an itch. Gṛhamedhīs, so-called gṛhasthas who have no spiritual knowledge, think that this itching is the greatest platform of happiness, although actually it is a source of distress. The kṛpaṅas, the fools who are just the opposite of brāhmaṅas, are not satisfied by repeated sensuous enjoyment. Those who are dhīra, however, who are sober and who tolerate this itching, are not subjected to the sufferings of fools and rascals.]

Dhīras tatra na muhyati [Bg 2.13].

[As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change.]

If you can quote ślokas, that will be first class. In India especially. In your country they do not care. Our Bhavānanda Swami, because he could not quote śloka, so he was saying, "Oh, because you have quoted some śloka, it is authorized?" [chuckles] He was saying like that. Western people, they cannot imagine that by quoting a Vedic version it becomes immediately authorized. They cannot imagine.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: They don't accept that authority.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: They don't accept that source of authority.

Prabhupāda: They don't accept any authority. Therefore they are changing Bible also, according to their whims. They don't accept authority. Therefore father..., son goes out of home. This is the basic principle of Western civilization. They don't accept any authority. Everyone is his own authority. Now that contamination has come here. And nobody can be authority also, because if I accept somebody authority, he has not followed authority, so how he can be authority? Do you follow? Suppose if somebody respects his father, but father never followed any authority. So actually father is not authority. What do they say, authority? Organized religion? They protest organized religion? What is that?

Acyutānanda: Yeah, they protest organized religion. Anything in the society, Catholic Church...

Prabhupāda: So nobody's now actually... This Christian world, they do not care for any Pope. Hmm. What do you think? And what is this Pope? He's simply a post. He has no knowledge. Otherwise, how he can tolerate? People are going against Bible. But the Pope does not understand that the in the Bible clearly it is said, "Thou shall not kill"? If he does not understand the simple truth, then how he can become the head of his... So what is interpretation of the Pope?

Acyutānanda: Yes, they say that animals have no soul.

Prabhupāda: Just see. Such rascals, they are leaders. How much imperfect that institution is. But if you say, then they will be angry.

Acyutānanda: Yes, one girl, she is Hindu, but she is studying in a convent. And she was..., they were catching butterflies in the garden. So the head Sister said, "No, don't harm them because they are God's creatures." So she said, "Well, why do you eat meat?" So the Sister left, but she failed her. She failed her in her classes. She gave her a failing grade, because she spoke back to her.

Kīrtanānanda: It means they have no philosophy.

Prabhupāda: No philosophy. No authority, no philosophy.

Kīrtanānanda: If they say, "One living entity has soul and another living entity doesn't," what is the difference? What is the principle of movement, they don't know.

Prabhupāda: What is that idea? I do not follow.

Acyutānanda: The girl embarrassed the Sister by saying that "You say that we shouldn't harm these insects, but you eat meat." So the Sister didn't say anything, but on the girl's examinations and during her classes the Sister gave her failing marks, in spite of her..., to cut down her outspokenness.

Prabhupāda: Failing marks? Means less...?

Acyutānanda: Yes, she failed her in the class.

Kīrtanānanda: Because she asked, "Why do you eat meat?"

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Acyutānanda: She couldn't answer her philosophically, so she got back by failing her.

Prabhupāda: So there are so many members of the Society "cruelty to animals." But they are all meat-eaters.

[pause]

Read something from Bhagavad-gītā and discuss. So in the Nepean Sea Road, whether regular other things are going on or not? Or simply it is going out and coming and eating and sleeping?

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Well, we want to have morning class, and Monday, Wednesday and Friday have evening program there, evening discourse.

Prabhupāda: Whether it is going on?

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Well, we just fixed up the place. The day you arrived was the first day it was painted. Until then, it was not fit for anyone to come in. It was very nasty.

Prabhupāda: But you are living since a long time there.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: We have been living, but we have not invited others there.

Prabhupāda: No, you invite others or not, whether your program was going on?

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: No, till then it wasn't, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Then it was simply a joint mess, that you go and collect and come and eat and sleep.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is very dangerous. Then you will all fall down. If you make a joint mess, if you go and collect something and then eat and sleep, then everything will be... Therefore I do not want to keep separate. The temple worship means there will be regulative principles, that you will have to rise early in the morning, you have to attend class, kīrtana... These things, as soon as you give up all these things—zero. Then it will be like karmīs, as they are, hard labor, collecting money and enjoying senses. That's all.

So that is the pitfall everywhere. In the church, temple, as soon as they get some nice income, then in the name of "priest," "sādhu," "sannyāsī," they do the same thing. Therefore Gosvāmīs, they left everything. That is the danger of viṣaya, viṣaya touch. Viṣaya chāḍiyā se rase majiyā [Śrī Śrī Gaura-Nityānander Dayā 2]. As soon as we give up this śravaṅam-kīrtanam, then it becomes viṣaya. Viṣaya means materialism. There is no spiritualism. Kṣurasya dhārā. Kṣurasya dhārā. Kṣura means sharpened razor. If you are careful, you cleanse very nicely. If you are not careful, immediately blood. Immediately.

So the spiritual life is like that. As soon as you become little inattentive, immediately māyā captures, "Yes, come on." Then everything failure. We have got the tendency to enjoy sense. So senses are strong. As soon as there is opportunity, the senses will take advantage immediately. Then your whole business finished, Choṭa Haridāsa, and rejected by Mahāprabhu, "Get out." Even associate of Caitanya Mahāprabhu failed, personal associate. So there is chance of falling down even from the personal association of God. Jaya-Vijaya, they had to become demons.

So these are the... If we do not follow strictly our regulative principles, routine work, then the whole scheme will be failure. Then, instead of Christianity it will be "churchianity." You know this word "churchianity"? You know? Yes. Everywhere this churchianity is going on. And the real aim is how to enjoy sense, under different cover. That is going on all over the world. Therefore it has come to that Rajneesh. Ramakrishna Mission, Rajneesh Mission. Vivekananda has given, preached, "Yes. Yata mata tata patha"; Rajneesh also, a mata. They have got also followers. Everyone can manufacture his own way of religion.

So sense enjoyment, there is free field. This material world means sense enjoyment. But spiritual life means no sense enjoyment. Tapasya. Tapo divyam. Sense enjoyment is there even in the hogs. Then where is the difference between man and hog? The man means the more he has denied sense enjoyment, he is advanced. Otherwise the spirit of sense enjoyment there is in the hogs. That is the difference. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye [SB 5.5.1].

[Lord Ṛṣabhadeva told His sons: My dear boys, of all the living entities who have accepted material bodies in this world, one who has been awarded this human form should not work hard day and night simply for sense gratification, which is available even for dogs and hogs that eat stool. One should engage in penance and austerity to attain the divine position of devotional service. By such activity, one's heart is purified, and when one attains this position, he attains eternal, blissful life, which is transcendental to material happiness and which continues forever.]

These ordinary men, they are working so hard, but what is their aim? The aim is sense enjoyment. So keeping the point, sense enjoyment, in view, there is no difference between hogs and human being. Because they are also working day and night, hogs.

A particular animal has been mentioned in the śāstra. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke. This ayaṁ deho nṛloke, in the human society, is not meant for working so hard simply for sense enjoyment, because this spirit is visible even in the hogs. Then what it is meant...? Tapaḥ. Tapasā brahmacaryeṅa [SB 6.1.13].

[To concentrate the mind, one must observe a life of celibacy and not fall down. One must undergo the austerity of voluntarily giving up sense enjoyment. One must then control the mind and senses, give charity, be truthful, clean and nonviolent, follow the regulative principles and regularly chant the holy name of the Lord. Thus a sober and faithful person who knows the religious principles is temporarily purified of all sins performed with his body, words and mind. These sins are like the dried leaves of creepers beneath a bamboo tree, which may be burned by fire although their roots remain to grow again at the first opportunity.]

That is the point. Śamena, damena, satya-śaucābhyām. Everything is there. And there are different types of sense enjoyment: rūpa, rasa, gandha, śabda, sparśa, six kinds. And each sense, there is an object of sense enjoyment. There is eyes, "Oh, beautiful woman," sense enjoyment. Maithunam, sex life, there are eight kinds of sex. If one thinks within the mind about sex enjoyment, that is also sex.

So anyway, that is the danger, keeping a separate department for money collecting. Then it will turn: "Collect money, eat nicely and sleep nicely." And to live in the temple, at least one is forced to rise early in the morning, take bath, to have darśana. They'll get regulated life. Therefore this temple worship is needed, because we are so impure. So at least, in temple, by following the regulative principles, we can keep ourself pure. Otherwise, simply chanting is sufficient. There is no need of constructing big, big temple. But we are so impure... That is Jīva Gosvāmī's recommendation, that as soon as we give up this temple worship method, regulative principle, then we become, in the dress of so-called, we become victim of māyā. Veśopajīvaka. They are working and doing some business, and then our dress will be a means of business. This will be also another material business. Actually they are doing so. So that is the danger of keeping a separate department. What is the use? We have got jeeps.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Still... The danger is very much there, I see that. But there is a use.

Prabhupāda: Well, if the danger is there, why should we accept such use?

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Can we overcome that danger? We can try to overcome that danger.

Prabhupāda: You cannot ever overcome, because you are all weak. Daivī hy eṣā guṅamayī mama māyā [Bg 7.14].

[This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it.]

Unless you are very strong, māyā is very, very stronger than you. How you can avoid it? Daivī hy eṣā guṅamayī mama māyā duratyayā, mām eva ye prapadyante. Only one is very, very strong in capturing the lotus feet of Kṛṣṅa, he can avoid. Otherwise it is not possible. All these Ville Parle, Juhu gentlemen, they are daily coming to their city business. And is it very difficult for us?

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: They have an office, though, in the city where they come to. They have an office that they come to in the city.

Prabhupāda: Office means their business is office. But your business is begging. Your business is not office. Your business is not... They have to direct so many things from there. That we can do. Besides that... Anyway, even they have got office, they come from in Bombay, Calcutta, even from hundred miles away.

So if there is no such program, Deity worship, regulative principle, then it will be a joint mess. Hotel. Transcendental hotel. And transcendental fraud. This will go on. The business will be transcendental fraud, and life will be transcendental hotel.

[break] ...twenty, twenty-five. So these women devotee, they are given cāpāṭis by the bābājīs. Kṣurasya dhārā. Actually it is like that. A sharpened razor. A little inattention, immediately blood. Kṣurasya dhārā niśitā duratyayā durgaṁ pathams tat kavayo vadanti [Kaṭha Upaniṣad 1.3.14].

[Please wake up and try to understand the boon that you now have in this human form of life. The path of spiritual realization is very difficult; it is sharp like a razor's edge. That is the opinion of learned transcendental scholars.]

That is the risk. Nowadays modern civilization, as we are accepting, there is jeep, there is telephone. Everything is there. One can conduct his activities from anywhere.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: But it didn't work last time. They stopped their preaching. The last time everyone moved to Juhu, they completely lost contact with all the Life Members in the city, because they found it very difficult to continuously go back and forth.

Prabhupāda: So keep it just like a temple. Not that...

Acyutānanda: Nepean Sea Road downtown, it should be kept like a temple?

Prabhupāda: Yes. The temple routine work must go there.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: But no Deity.

Prabhupāda: Deity, there is picture. That's all right. Do you think that picture is not Deity?

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: There are eight kinds of Deity. Picture is also Deity. Even the thinking of Kṛṣṅa within the mind, that is also Deity. But we are not so expert that within the mind we can worship the Deity. Just like yesterday I gave you the example, the brāhmaṅa. He was worshiping Deity within the mind. There was no temple, no Deity. But within the mind, everything he was doing. And he got salvation. So that depends on particular person, how to worship Deity. So far we are gross men, so we must have Deity worship. Otherwise, you can worship Deity anywhere, sit down and think, just like this brāhmaṅa was thinking. Because Kṛṣṅa is available in any way, because He is everything. But the method must be there.

Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano [Bg 7.4].

[Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego—altogether these eight comprise My separated material energies.]

So mind is also another material thing. So if you think of Kṛṣṅa's form within the body, mind, it is as good as you worship the Deity in the temples made of brass or wood or stone. Because both of them are Kṛṣṅa's energy. Whatever possible, He can accept. And that is Kṛṣṅa, because Kṛṣṅa's energy. Therefore the energy is not different from Kṛṣṅa. Kṛṣṅa can accept your service in any of these material..., so-called material. Actually there is no material things. Material things means the desire for sense gratification. That is material. Ātmendriya-prīti-vāñchā—tāre bali 'kām [Cc Ādi 4.165]. That is material. Kṛṣṅendriya-prīti-vāñchā dhare 'prema' nāma. That is spiritual. So that picture, that must be kept in a nice altar, regularly ārati, and everything should go on.

[pause]

[break] ...mūḍha's position. Vyāsadeva has given Kṛṣṅa's pastimes in the Tenth Canto of Bhāgavata. Nine canto are devoted for understanding Kṛṣṅa, beginning from janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1], the Supreme, what is Para-brahman, janmādy asya yataḥ. This is beginning. That Kṛṣṅa is personally explaining Himself in the Bhagavad-gītā. What Bhāgavata has described, what is Kṛṣṅa simply... Janmādy asya yataḥ. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Here also, this Vīrarāghavācārya says in [indistinct] jijñāsayā. He has given the meaning of jijñāsayā. Yes. Jñāna-buddha-vicāreṅa jijñāsayā. Jijñāsayā means vedānta-vākya-vicāreṅa. Vedānta. Jijñāsā. Jijñāsā, inquisitiveness, should be satisfied by the answers given in the Vedānta. Jijñāsayā. So Vedānta begins with this jijñāsā, inquisitiveness. Jijñāsā. Athāto brahma jijñāsā.

This human life is meant for inquiring about the Supreme Brahman. Jijñāsā. Jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam. And Bhāgavata says jijñāsu. And Bhagavad-gītā also says, jñāni jijñāsuḥ ca bharatarṣabha. Catur-vidhā. Find out this. Catur-vidhā bhajante mām, sukṛtino 'rjuna [Bg 7.16].

[O best among the Bhāratas [Arjuna], four kinds of pious men render devotional service unto Me—the distressed, the desirer of wealth, the inquisitive, and he who is searching for knowledge of the Absolute.]

Those who are pious, they can begin bhajana. Sukṛtinaḥ. So four kinds of men: ārto arthārthī jijñāsur jñānī. Artaḥ means distressed, materially distressed; arthārthī, poor man who needs some money; jñānī and jijñāsu—these four classes of men, if they are pious, they inquire about the Absolute. If they are pious.

If one is pious, if he is distressed, he prays to Bhagavān, "Sir, I am in distressed condition. Kindly save me." This is piety. Arthārthī, jñāni. They are... So jñānī. Human life is developed consciousness, jñānī, so why they should waste their time in inquiring so many unwanted things? They should devote their life simply for inquiring about the Absolute Truth, jijñāsu. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This life is meant for brahma-jijñāsā. This life is not meant for to live like cats and dogs. They have no jijñāsā. Their only jijñāsā is inquiry: "Where is food?" "Where is sex?" "Where is nice apartment?" "Where is defense?" This is their inquiry. In the animal life, there is no possibility of inquiring about the Absolute Truth. Everyone is working. They are also jijñāsu: "Where is money? Where is money?" That is also inquiry.

So athāto brahma jijñāsā means...

[aside:] You can come this side.

Brahma-jijñāsā means this human form of life is meant for inquiring about the Absolute Truth, brahma-jijñāsā. This is human life. Unless one is jijñāsu... Just like Sanātana Gosvāmī went to Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and he inquired... His first inquiry was, "What I am?" His first inquiry was. Ke āmi, kene āmāya jāre tāpa-traya [Cc Madhya 20.102]? He said, grāmya-vyavahāre paṅḍita, tāi satya māni [Cc Madhya 20.100].

[I do not know what is beneficial for me or what is detrimental. Nonetheless, in ordinary dealings people consider me a learned scholar, and I am also thinking of myself as such.]

He was a brāhmaṅa. So brāhmaṅas are addressed as paṅḍitjī. He was paṅḍita. He was very learned scholar in Sanskrit and Parsi, Urdu. But he admitted his fault, that "Everyone calls me as paṅḍitjī, but I am such a paṅḍita that I do not know what I am.

This is my 'paṅḍitjī.' Therefore I have come to inquire from You what I am." That is brahma-jijñāsā. Nobody knows in this material world what he is. Everyone is thinking, "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am brāhmaṅa," "I am woman," "I am man." This is their... They do not know. Brahma-jijñāsā. Brahma-jijñāsā means first to know one's self, self-realization, "What I am." And in the Bhagavad-gītā the first reply is given there, this brahma-jijñāsā. Because Arjuna was puzzled. He was thinking that "My kinsmen, my grandfather, my brothers, they are this skin, this body." So he was thinking, "If I kill my grandfather, my brother on the other side, what is the use of this fight? I do not like." But he was thinking in bodily concept of life. This is the position of everyone. Everyone is in the bodily concept of life. Therefore the first instruction of the Bhagavad-gītā is dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg 2.13].

[As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change.]

The asmin dehe, in this body, there is the soul. He is the proprietor.

So this life should be... Education means one should be advanced in education to inquire about himself. That is brahma-jijñāsā. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. And as soon as there is question of jijñāsā, then there must be somebody else from whom to inquire. Therefore śāstra says that when you are jijñāsu, when you are inquisitive... Inquisitive of what? Jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam. Śreyas. Here we are also jijñāsu. We are going to the market: "What is the rate of this share?" "What is the rate of this commodity?" "What is the rate of rice?" "What is...?" We are also jijñāsu. But śāstra says, jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam: "One must be inquiring about the highest perfection of life." That is human life. Śreya uttamam. Śreya means... Śreya and preya. Goodness, welfare, good. A small child does not know what is his śreya. If you give a two paisa–worth lozenges, he thinks, "This is my object, end of. I have got now nice sweet lozenges." But as you advance, then the śreya is different. It is preya. Immediately which you like, that is called preya. But what is your ultimate good, that is called śreya. Śreya and preya.

So people are interested in the bodily concept of life. Anything which is immediately pleasing to my senses, we take it, "This is my end of life." Therefore śāstra says, śreya uttamam, not that śreya which is immediately very pleasing to you. What is immediately pleasing to you, it will be a source of great displeasure at the end. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. So uttamam. Uttamam. Ut means transcendental, and tama means this material world. "Beyond this material world." Uttamam. Śreya uttamam. Because we are not this material body, therefore our śreya, our highest perfection of life, is different. Here the perfection of life—you get a comfortable life of the body. That is not possible, however comfortably you may situate. You may be very rich man, you may have very rich connection or good apartment, but still, you cannot be happy because you are not this body. But they do not know. Therefore one should be inquisitiveness, that "I want to be happy. I am arranging for my happiness with so many material paraphernalia, but still I am not happy." This inquiry should be there. That is called jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam. And that is brahma-jijñāsā.

So brahma-jijñāsā is not for everyone. Brahma-jijñāsā... For brahma-jijñāsā one should make a guru, not for any material welfare. If I get some money, if some guru gives me some money, some gold, I think he is Bhagavān, because I am attached to this gold and material things. That is not śreya. But people like that. If somebody by miracles give you some money, some gold, they think, "Oh, here is God. Here is God. Here is God." But that is not śreya. And if gold is the standard of happiness, then... There are many persons, Birlas and others, they possess huge stock of gold. Does it mean that they will not die? They will not suffer from disease? But foolish persons, they think, "If I get some gold, then I'll be happy." And that is foolishness. Nothing material will make you happy. Therefore Kṛṣṅa says real happiness means to approach Him. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya [Bg 9.32].

[O son of Pṛthā, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth—women, vaiśyas [merchants], as well as śūdras [workers]—can approach the supreme destination.]

No? What is that? Duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ [Bg 8.15].

[After attaining Me, the great souls, who are yogīs in devotion, never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection.]

Find out this verse. Duḥkhālayam aśāś..., māṁ... The second line you can find out.

Pradyumna: Seventh Chapter?

Prabhupāda: Yes, it may be.

[aside:] Come on. [Hindi]

Nāpnuvanti? Nāpnuvanti means "By coming to Me, one does not again get this place, which is duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam" [Bg 8.15]. Nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam... This place is duḥkhālayam. Duḥkha ālayam. Here we create miseries. Or it is a miserable place. Therefore Kṛṣṅa says, who has created this cosmic manifestation as duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam, "It is a place of miserable condition. And that is also aśāśvatam, not permanent, nonpermanent." You cannot make any compromise that "All right, let it be duḥkhālayam. I shall stay here." You cannot stay. You'll be kicked out. You cannot stay. Therefore it is called aśāśvatam, non-permanent. This is our... But we are seeking after permanent bliss, permanent, eternal life. That is our searching out. That is real jijñāsā: "Where I can get eternal life of bliss and knowledge?" That is brahma-jijñāsā. So this life, this human... You have got it?

Pradyumna: Yes.

mām upetya punar janma duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gataḥ [Bg 8.15]

[After attaining Me, the great souls, who are yogīs in devotion, never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection.]

Prabhupāda: Ah, this is saṁsiddhiṁ paramām, highest perfection. What is the translation?

Pradyumna: "After attaining Me, the great souls who are yogīs in devotion never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection."

Prabhupāda: That is the highest perfection. Nāpnuvanti... What is that?

Pradyumna: Nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Ah, mahātmāna. This mahātmāna means devotees of Lord. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ, bhajanty ananya-manasaḥ [Bg 9.13].

[O son of Pṛthā, those who are not deluded, the great souls, are under the protection of the divine nature. They are fully engaged in devotional service because they know Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, original and inexhaustible.]

This is mahātmā. Not by stamping "mahātmā." Mahātmā means... Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ. Mahātmās, they are under the protection of spiritual energy. And what is the sign? That bhajanty ananya-manasaḥ. Find out this verse, mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ. Just like we are under the material energy. This is called... This is also daivī-prakṛti, but it is inferior.

Parā-prakṛti and aparā-prakṛti. That is described. That real daivī-prakṛti is transcendental. Everything is Kṛṣṅa's energy. Just like heat and light, they are different energies of the fire. But heat or light, light is superior than the heat. Both of them coming from the same source, heat and light. Just like sun: the heat and light. But we are more concerned with the light, sunlight. Similarly, the spiritual world and the material world, both of them are creation or emanation, mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate, from God. But the light energy is more perfect. Apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām. What is that verse? You have found out? Read it.

Pradyumna:

mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ bhajanty ananya-manaso jñātvā bhūtādim avyayam [Bg 9.13]

"O son of Pṛthā, those who are not deluded, the great souls, are under the protection of the divine nature. They are fully engaged in devotional service because they know Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, original and inexhaustible."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhajanti. Bhajanti means "engaged in devotional service." Bhaja sevāyām. Bhaj-dhātu, this verb, is meant for "rendering service." Bhaj-dhātu, kti, bhakti. So bhakta. Bhakti, bhakta and Bhagavān. So these are the mahātmās. But these mahātmās, these bhakta-mahātmās... Actually, mahātmā is bhakta-mahātmā. But there are others, mahātmās; they are also called mahātmās, but they are not mentioned in the Bhāgavata. They have been mentioned anye. Anye mean others. Is that verse there? Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha? No. Anye?

Anye means others. The impersonalists, they are also sometimes called mahātmā. But the mahātmā who is kṛṣṅa-bhakta, that is very rare. That is described in the Bhāgavatam, sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. There are mahātmās, but the mahātmā who is the devotee of Kṛṣṅa, he is very rare. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. Jñānīs they are also mahātmās, speculating what is the Absolute Truth. They are also called mahātmā. But this mahātmā, bhajanty ananya-manaso, without any deviation, this mahātmā is very rare. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ.

Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate. This prapadya...

[aside:] Oh, why you are...? You can keep it closed. Yes.

bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ [Bg 7.19]

[After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.]

Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante. The jñānīs and yogīs, they have to search for the Absolute Truth for many, many births. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān. Jñānavān. Those who are searching out the Absolute Truth, they are also jñānavān. Or after many, many births, when one becomes actually wise, jñānavān. Everyone is searching after the Absolute, or the highest perfection of life. "In this way, searching, when one comes to the real platform of becoming wise, then he surrenders unto Me." Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg 7.19]. Why? Now, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti. Such wise man, jñānavān, he knows that "Kṛṣṅa is everything." Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. "That mahātmā is very rare."

So our Kṛṣṅa consciousness movement is making that sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ, not ordinary mahātmā. Sa mahātmā, that mahātmā, who fully surrenders to Kṛṣṅa. Kṛṣṅa also says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṅaṁ vraja [Bg 18.66].

[Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear.]

That is real perfection of life. By understanding Kṛṣṅa, by surrendering to Kṛṣṅa, by going back to home, back to Godhead, Kṛṣṅa, that is saṁsiddhi. What is that verse, saṁsiddhi?

Pradyumna: Saṁsiddhiṁ paraṁ gati...

Prabhupāda: No... Nāpnuvanti. Saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ. Saṁsiddhim. Siddhi, siddhi is ordinary. If you become transcendentalist, jñānī, yogī, that is also kind of siddhi. Yogīs, they have got aṣṭa-siddhi, aṅimā-laghimādi. But that is not saṁsiddhi. Saṁsiddhi is different. Saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ. The highest perfection, saṁsiddhi, is to go back to home, back to Kṛṣṅa. That is saṁsiddhi. Mām upetya kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg 8.15].

[After attaining Me, the great souls, who are yogīs in devotion, never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection.]

That will save him from coming down again to this place which is full of miserable condition of life. That is saṁsiddhi. That one can attain very easily.

That is also described, that janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ [Bg 4.9]:

[One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna.]

"Anyone who understands Me in truth..." Generally, people understand Kṛṣṅa that "He appeared as a great personality, son of Vasudeva. At Mathurā, He was born. And He acted very gorgeously in the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra," and so on, so on. This is also knowing. But this is not knowing factually that Kṛṣṅa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. When one understands Kṛṣṅa the original source of everything, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1], which Kṛṣṅa explains, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg 7.7]:

[O conqueror of wealth [Arjuna], there is no Truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread.]

"There is no superior authority beyond Me." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ [Bg 10.8]:

[I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who know this perfectly engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts.]

"I am the origin of all." When one understands Kṛṣṅa like that...

The Māyāvādī philosophers, they think that "I am also Kṛṣṅa. I am also Kṛṣṅa." But people who follow, they do not ask him that "If you are Kṛṣṅa, you show something as Kṛṣṅa showed. Kṛṣṅa lifted the Govardhana Hill when He was seven years old. And you are seventy years old. What you have done like that?" [laughs] So everyone wants to become Kṛṣṅa, but he cannot manifest Kṛṣṅa's pastimes. Kṛṣṅa showed the virāṭ-rūpa to Arjuna. What you have got? So this is Māyāvāda. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg 7.7]. Kṛṣṅa says, "Nobody can be superior than Me or equal to Me, equal to Me." Therefore Kṛṣṅa's another name is Asamordhva. Nobody is equal; nobody is above Him. Asamordhva.

So in this way if we understand Kṛṣṅa, then we become liberated. Janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ [Bg 4.9].

[One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna.]

And this tattvataḥ is very significant. How you can know Kṛṣṅa as He is, in truth? That is also explained: bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ [Bg 18.55].

[One can understand the Supreme Personality as He is only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of the Supreme Lord by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God.]

If you want to understand Kṛṣṅa in tattva, in fact, in truth, then you have to adopt this process of bhakti. Not jñāna, not yoga, not karma. Karma, jñāna, yoga, bhakti. So Kṛṣṅa is understandable simply by bhakti, not by other methods. Not by karma, not by jñāna, not by yoga. Therefore Kṛṣṅa says, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante [Bg 7.19].

[After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.]

The jñānīs, karmīs, yogīs, they are trying to come to the Absolute Truth, but they will take many, many births to come to this point to surrender. Therefore intelligence means if one understands that "Ultimately I have to come to Kṛṣṅa for my highest perfection; then why not immediately? Kṛṣṅa is canvassing, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṅaṁ vraja [Bg 18.66].

[Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear.]

Why not take this process?" This is intelligence.

Therefore Kṛṣṅa says, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān [Bg 7.19]: "After many, many births, when one actually becomes wise, jñānavān, he surrenders. He surrenders." If one remains still unwise, not fully in knowledge, he hesitates, "Oh, why shall I surrender to Kṛṣṅa? Kṛṣṅa is as like me; He is also a man. Maybe a powerful man, a very learned man." No. Kṛṣṅa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So anyone who understands Kṛṣṅa tattvataḥ, in truth... Simply by understanding Kṛṣṅa, even if he does not understand fully, if he tries to understand Kṛṣṅa, that is also very good. That is also. Tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ caraṅāmbujaṁ harer [SB 1.5.17].

[One who has forsaken his material occupations to engage in the devotional service of the Lord may sometimes fall down while in an immature stage, yet there is no danger of his being unsuccessful. On the other hand, a nondevotee, though fully engaged in occupational duties, does not gain anything.]

Even one tries to understand Kṛṣṅa, he does not finish, Kṛṣṅa says, svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt [Bg 2.40]:

[In this endeavor there is no loss or diminution, and a little advancement on this path can protect one from the most dangerous type of fear.]

"Even little beginning of this devotional service can save one person from the greatest danger." Therefore there is great need of Kṛṣṅa consciousness movement all over the world, to make them intelligent.

Is there any question on this point?

Guest (1) [Indian man]: Lord Brahmā also prays for to be born into Vṛndāvana. Lord Brahmā prays for him, [indistinct]. His prayer [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Because he will try to understand Kṛṣṅa. Aiye. Even Lord Brahmā could not understand Kṛṣṅa. [Hindi] [laughs] No. [Hindi] Therefore, to understand Kṛṣṅa he desired to take birth in Vṛndāvana.

manuṣyāṅāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye yatatām api siddhānāṁ kaścin vetti māṁ tattvataḥ [Bg 7.3]

[Out of many thousands among men, one may endeavor for perfection, and of those who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth.]

Out of many millions of person, they try to understand what is the perfection of life, and out of many such millions of person who are in the line of understanding perfection of life, some of them or someone may understand Kṛṣṅa. Muhyanti yat sūrayaḥ. Just like Brahmā was also bewildered whether Kṛṣṅa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Brahmā, the first creature of this universe, he's also... Muhyanti yat sūrayaḥ. Therefore we should take advantage of this opportunity. Kṛṣṅa is explaining Himself in the Bhagavad-gītā, about Himself. That is the highest perfection of life, simply to understand Bhagavad-gītā as it is, as spoken by Kṛṣṅa. Then one's life is perfect.

But unfortunately, so many scholars and svāmīs, they are misinterpreting Kṛṣṅa and Bhagavad-gītā. The people are placed in darkness. They are already in darkness. By misinterpretation, they are putting them in darkness. They cannot understand Kṛṣṅa. For practical example you can see in European countries the Bhagavad-gītā was being studied at least for two hundred, three hundred years, but there was not a single devotee of Kṛṣṅa, not even. Within the history.

And now they are studying Bhagavad-gītā as it is, you will find thousands of kṛṣṅa-bhaktas. They are not given the chance to understand Bhagavad-gītā by misinterpretation, "This means that, this means that, Kṛṣṅa means this, Kurukṣetra means body." Misinterpretation. Misled. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is, and people are accepting and becoming seriously devotee of Kṛṣṅa. They are surprised, the newspaper reporters. They inquire from me, "Swāmījī, why younger generation is attracted with this movement?" And younger generation, they are inquisitive. Old fools, whatever they have learned, they have to forget again. Then they will..., it will take some time. They have learned something wrong. So one has to be washed of these wrong impressions; then he can come to the point of understanding Kṛṣṅa. But these young hearts, they are receptive. They are seeing, "Here is nice." They are accepting. They are chanting now on the streets. You have heard that record, "Hare Kṛṣṅa"?

Gopāla Kṛṣṅa: Do you want to play it?

Prabhupāda: Yes, why not play it? Yes. Bring that record. On New York, Fifth Avenue, our saṅkīrtana party is going on.

Gopāla Kṛṣṅa: They are carrying the gramophone now.

Prabhupāda: And in London, Oxford Street, the most, I mean to say, crowded street, just like our Bombay, [indistinct] Road. So in the big, big cities they are now chanting Hare Kṛṣṅa, dancing. People are enjoying. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam [Cc Ādi 17.21].

[In this Age of Kali there is no other means, no other means, no other means for self-realization than chanting the holy name, chanting the holy name, chanting the holy name of Lord Hari.]

You can play this record at home and dance in tune and enjoy.

Gopāla Kṛṣṅa: They are bringing it. This is the record, Every Town and Village. They are bringing the machine.

Prabhupāda: We are arrested by the police sometimes. Sometimes there are big cases against us. In Ireland. Ireland?

Pradyumna: Ireland, Scotland, in Edinburgh, too.

Prabhupāda: [laughing] These impediments are always there, even in Caitanya Mahāprabhu's time. The Kazi, the Muhammadan magistrate, he wanted to stop.

[pause]

Kṛṣṅa tvadīya pada-paṅkaja-pañjarāntam [Mukunda-mālā-stotra 33].

[My Lord Kṛṣṅa, I pray that the swan of my mind may immediately sink down to the stems of the lotus feet of Your Lordship and be locked up in their network; otherwise at the time of my final breath, when my throat is choked up with cough, how will it be possible to think of You?]

So you are devotee of Rādhārāṅī. Eh? Yes, that is good. Through Rādhārāṅī, one should approach Kṛṣṅa. And therefore Vṛndāvana, they, everyone says, "Jaya Rādhe," first of all glorifying Rādhārāṅī. We have got many records. This is one of them, kīrtana.

[record starts playing] [break]

[sounds of people leaving and Śrīla Prabhupāda saying Hare Kṛṣṅa to individual people] [Hindi] [break]

Guest (2) [Indian man]: ...by working towards perfection in my duty...

Prabhupāda: Yes, that perfection is to please Kṛṣṅa. If by... You are doing everything, that's all right; but if by your working Kṛṣṅa is satisfied, then that working is perfect. If Kṛṣṅa is not satisfied, then it is useless, waste of time.

Guest (2): But how do I come to know that Kṛṣṅa is satisfied?

Prabhupāda: That you have to learn by Kṛṣṅa consciousness. By becoming... Just like Kṛṣṅa says, whatever Kṛṣṅa says, you have to do that. Kṛṣṅa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg 18.65]:

[Always think of Me and become My devotee. Worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend.]

"Always think of Me, become My devotee, offer your obeisances unto Me," man-manā bhava, "become My devotee." So if you abide by this, then Kṛṣṅa is satisfied. Kṛṣṅa says, yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi yad aśnāsi yat tapasyasi kuruṣva tad mad-arpaṅam [Bg 9.27]: "Whatever you are doing, it doesn't matter, but you do it for Me."

Guest (2): Without any selfish interest.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You remain servant of Kṛṣṅa. Just like a servant discharges his duty very faithfully for the satisfaction of the master, similarly, you have got industry, if you work in this industrial work for the satisfaction of Kṛṣṅa... Just like this boy behind you, he is working somewhere, getting good salary. But I had told him that "Some percentage you must give to Kṛṣṅa." He is regularly giving.

Guest (2): If I feel I have love for Kṛṣṅa, is that enough to be a devotee?

Prabhupāda: But you must show how your love... Simply if you say... Suppose, anywhere in this material world, if you say somebody that "I love you," but there is no symptoms of love, then what kind of love? Love symptoms means dadāti, giving. First symptom. Just like when a boy goes to love a girl, he brings something. That is ordinary etiquette. So first beginning of love is dadāti, pratigṛhṅāti. If I love you, I must give you. And if you offer me, I will take it, I will take something. Pratigṛhṅāti.

Exchange, giving and taking. Dadāti pratigṛhṅāti, bhuṅkte bhojayate. If you love somebody, give him to eat, and whatever he gives you, you also eat. Dadāti pratigṛhṅāti bhuṅkte bhojayate, guhyam ākhyāti pṛcchati. And if you love somebody, then you disclose your mind to him and try to understand him also. By these six processes the symptoms of love is there. But if you say that "I love you," but there is no action...

Guest (2): That giving should be without any intention of taking.

Prabhupāda: No, no profit-making, no business, that "I give you something. I must have something from you." No, no. Love means without any desire, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11],

[One should render transcendental loving service to the Supreme Lord Kṛṣṅa favorably and without desire for material profit or gain through fruitive activities or philosophical speculation. That is called pure devotional service.]

without any motive. That is pure love. If I give you something without any motive, that is pure love.

Guest (3) [Indian man]: [Hindi] ...there are three factors: one, duty towards God, duty towards the family, duty towards the business, duty towards the country, duty towards the society. Then how is he to balance himself in these duties?

Prabhupāda: Duty, there are so many duties. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā says,

vyavasāyātmikā buddhir ekeha kuru-nandana bahu-śākhā hy anantāś ca buddhayo 'vyavasāyinām [Bg 2.41]

"Those who are actually perfect, their buddhi is one. And those who are not perfect, their buddhi is distributed in so many ways." Just like you said, duties, so many, so many, this, that, this, that. But just like there are many branches and twigs and leaves and flowers in a tree, but if you pour water in the root, then it approaches everywhere.

Guest (3): Yes. Therefore the duty's also in the strong room.

Prabhupāda: Just try to understand that you must know how to discharge your duty. Because you do not know what is duty, therefore you are placing so many other duties: nationality, this, this. Kṛṣṅa-bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya [Cc Madhya 22.62]. If you become devotee... Just like your son. Is he not maintaining his family? Is he not respecting his father, mother, he is not doing his duty in the service, he is doing his spiritual master? But his main principle is that he is devotee of Kṛṣṅa. So if you become devotee of Kṛṣṅa, you can discharge your duties properly; otherwise you cannot. It is not possible.

If you want to pour water leaf after leaf, it will be useless waste of time. But if you pour water in the center, on the root, it will go everywhere. Because he is devotee of Kṛṣṅa, he knows how to discharge his duty towards his parents, how to discharge his duty to his wife, how to discharge his duties towards his spiritual master. He knows everything. But one who is not a devotee of Kṛṣṅa, he does not know. He is simply confused—sometimes jumping here, something jumping there, something jumping there. He does not know how to pour water.

Guest (1): But what should be the first step to become a devotee.

Prabhupāda: Yes, dadāti. Dadāti. That I have already explained. Dadāti. He must give. Give. Everyone goes to God to beg: "God, give us our daily bread." But one must go to God to give Him. "If I do not give bread to Kṛṣṅa, He will be starving." This is devotee's mentality. Yaśodāmāyī. Yaśodāmāyī is thinking, Kṛṣṅa, "If I do not feed Kṛṣṅa well, my child will die." This is devotion. Otherwise, everyone is asking from Kṛṣṅa. But Yaśodā-mā is thinking that "If I do not maintain Kṛṣṅa properly, He will die."

Therefore he [she] is always trying to supply everything, mākhana, miśri. So real love begins when you try to give God. Everyone is trying to take from God, "O Father, give us our daily bread." This is not pure devotee. This is good, because he has approached God, but this is not devotion. It is not devotion, it is..., means business: "God, give me something, then I will love You." Is it not?

Guest (1): But giving means, you know, giving part of what you earn, or some other way? When you say give...

Prabhupāda: Give means, you want to take something from God: "God, give me wealth, give me fame" Yaśo dehi.

Guest (1): No, if we want to give to God...

Prabhupāda: Yes, when you learn to give God. Generally...

Guest (1): Therefore, if a man feels empty, what he can offer?

Prabhupāda: No, no, empty... God says that you can give Him patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam [Bg 9.26].

[If one offers Me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit or water, I will accept it.]

You can give Him little flower, little fruit, little leaf, little water, He is satisfied. Not that you have to give millions of dollars. But if you have got millions of dollars, and if you think, "God will be satisfied with little fruit," that is cheating. God knows, "He is a cheater. He has got millions of dollars and offering me little leaf, little water." He is intelligent enough. He knows that he's a cheater. People do that. Bhakti in the mind, God, and for others, garama garama purī. And for Kṛṣṅa, within the mind, meditate. [laughter] God knows that "He is a cheater number one. He is preparing purī for himself, and for Me he is meditating." What is this nonsense? How meditation will help?

Guest (1): God expects something from you.

Prabhupāda: God does not expect. It is for your good. If you are simply taking from God, now if you learn how to give God, that is your perfection. That is your perfection. Why God will ask from you? He is all-perfect. He does not want. He is not hungry. He is feeding millions of living entities. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān [Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13]. Why God will ask from you? But if you give your life to God, then you become perfect. God is not want of, in your service or anything. He is complete. If He is not complete, He is not God. These are all mental concoction. What you can do? What you have got to give charity?

Guest (4) [Indian man]: What is the position of man...

Prabhupāda: You are poor man. What you can give, charity? Why you are thinking that you can give in charity? Therefore God says, dadāsi yat: "If you are thinking to make some charity, give it to Me. Come on." Just like Bali Mahārāja was approached by Vāmanadeva. The Supreme Lord went to Bali Mahārāja, "Bali Mahārāja, give Me some land." You see? So these are all mental concoction. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā says that "If you have got such mentality to give some charity, give it to Me. Come on." The first thing is you try to learn how to give God.

Guest (1): But Gurujī, giving those who are in need is not giving to God?

Prabhupāda: That is your philosophy. That is your philosophy. Everyone is needy here.

Guest (3): Now people... There are drought conditions. People are starving. Cattles are dying. There are no rains.

Prabhupāda: Yes, because they are not God conscious, they are thinking like that. Now, suppose in the hospital, there are many patients. They are starving, many patients in the hospital. Do you know that or not? So why don't you give them food? They are starving. Why? Why don't you go to the hospital, and you'll find hundreds of patients, they are starving. So similarly, why you are bothering? You are not bothering the hospital because you know that is right they are starving.

That is the physician's prescription. They must starve. So if you know God, then you will understand that you cannot help anyone. They are put into the starving condition under certain condition. So you cannot help them. You are simply thinking that "I will help." There are hundreds and thousands, millions of people starving. What you can do, even if you try to give some something?

Just like this Vivekananda philosophy, daridra-nārāyaṅa-sevā, to serve the poor Nārāyaṅa. Nārāyaṅa has become poor. These are manufactured things. This is not with reference to the authorized śāstras or knowledge. What they can do? They raise subscription, huge subscription, on this plea, daridra-nārāyaṅa-sevā.

And Swami Nikhilananda in New York, he personally said, "Now these Americans ask me that 'You take from us so much money for daridra-nārāyaṅa-sevā, but when we go to India, we see all these daridra-nārāyaṅas are lying on the footpath. What you are doing for them?' " What you can do? You are simply thinking falsely. What you have got to give? Just oil in your own machine. Try to understand God, instead of thinking foolishly, "Oh, what I shall do, this? What I shall do, that?" First of all try to understand the situation.

Indian lady: [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: [Hindi]

Guest (1): [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: [Hindi with guest] [end]