Conversation with Devotees

Acyutānanda: ...stuff His ears up when anyone would refer to Him as God. He wants to be known as a devotee. But we worship Him as God, in the same line as Rādhā-Kṛṣṅa.

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Acyutānanda: So how do we understand that?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Acyutānanda: That Lord Caitanya doesn't want to be praised as God, but we worship Him as such.

Prabhupāda: That is a warning to the future fools and rascals that even God does not like to be addressed as God, but we address Him as God on the strength of śāstra. Kṛṣṅa-varṅaṁ tviṣā kṛṣṅaṁ saṅgo-paṅgastra..., yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtanaiḥ [SB 11.5.32].

[In the Age of Kali, intelligent persons perform congregational chanting to worship the incarnation of Godhead who constantly sings the names of Kṛṣṅa. Although His complexion is not blackish, He is Kṛṣṅa Himself. He is accompanied by His associates, servants, weapons and confidential companions.]

Here is the incarnation of God. That is... Śāstra says. So out of His humbleness, He may say like that, but we should know by following the ācāryas, by śāstra. Sādhu-śāstra-guru vākya. Guru accepts Him God; śāstra accepts Him God; sādhu accepts Him God.

Acyutānanda: The people say that just like Ramakrishna, the disciples presented him as God, but he never said he was God.

Prabhupāda: But then where is the śāstra?

Acyutānanda: No.

Prabhupāda: Three things: the devotee or saintly person, śāstra and guru. He has no guru. He has no support from the śāstra. [laughs] So he's a fool, rascal number one, and he is God. He was a illiterate priest. He had no knowledge of śāstra. Besides that, in the śāstra it is said that "Those who are worshiping other demigods, their intelligence is lost." So he was worshiping Kālī. So he had no intelligence or spiritual realization, and he became God? So these things can be accepted by other fools and rascals. But those who follow śāstra, they will reject immediately.

Acyutānanda: What if they say Caitanya Mahāprabhu was a devotee, He worshiped the Supreme Lord, kīrtana, but His disciples say He's God?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Acyutānanda: Simply the disciples have said He's God.

Prabhupāda: No. That... Why do you...? I have already said that He's supported by śāstra. He's supported by śāstra. He's supported by learned scholars, but here, in the transcendental scholars. And supported by guru. We follow our guru. So guru says; śāstra says; saintly persons say. Therefore we accept.

Acyutānanda: They interpret that verse in another way.

Prabhupāda: That, the rascals do. They are... What is their value? When these rascals says that worshiping Kālī, one becomes God...

Acyutānanda: No. No. Vaiṣṅavas.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Acyutānanda: The Rāmānuja and the Madhva, they say kṛṣṅa-varṅam means "black." Kṛṣṅa-varṅaṁ tviṣa kṛṣṅam [SB 11.5.32]:

[In the Age of Kali, intelligent persons perform congregational chanting to worship the incarnation of Godhead who constantly sings the names of Kṛṣṅa. Although His complexion is not blackish, He is Kṛṣṅa Himself. He is accompanied by His associates, servants, weapons and confidential companions.]

"But He is effulgent."

Prabhupāda: Hmm? No. We should follow our ācāryas. Why...

Acyutānanda: No, but how to convince them that? They will never accept Caitanya.

Prabhupāda: No. "You are also ācārya, but we have got our own ācārya. Why should I follow you?"

Acyutānanda: But how to convince them?

Prabhupāda: Convince means they will not be convinced. Kṛṣṅa-varṅam, kṛṣṅaṁ varṅayati. One who is describing Kṛṣṅa, that is kṛṣṅa-varṅa. And kṛṣṅa-varṅa does not mean black. And again it is confirmed, tviṣā akṛṣṅam. So how can they say "black"? By complexion, He is akṛṣṅa. So how they can interpret that He's black?

Acyutānanda: That it says... They interpret kṛṣṅa-varṅam...

Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. That is foolishness. Kṛṣṅa-varṅam means kṛṣṅaṁ varṅayati iti kṛṣṅa-varṅam. If it is kṛṣṅa-varṅa, then how it is again confirmed, tviṣā akṛṣṅa?

Acyutānanda: That His effulgence.

Prabhupāda: That is his interpretation. Tviṣā, tviṣā akṛṣṅam. And in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is said, idānīṁ kṛṣṅatāṁ gataḥ, śuklo raktas tathā pitaḥ idānīṁ kṛṣṅatāṁ gataḥ [SB 10.8.13]. So God has other colors also: white and red and yellow. So here is yellow. Tviṣā akṛṣṅa. So we have to follow Jīva Gosvāmī. What these rascals we have to follow? We don't follow. If you have got a interpretation, we have got better interpretation. Why shall I accept you? My mother says, "Here is your father." I shall accept that, or somebody says, "Here is your father"? Whom shall I accept? Mother's version. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam [Bg 4.2].

[This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way. But in course of time the succession was broken, and therefore the science as it is appears to be lost.]

We should accept the paramparā ācāryas, not whimsically anyone's interpretation you have to accept.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Prabhupāda, in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta, it's very clear that if one does not accept Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, then actually he cannot worship Kṛṣṅa properly.

Prabhupāda: That's a fact.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Now just to carry on with Acyutānanda Mahārāja's point, it would seem then that the Rāmānujīs and the Madhvites, they don't accept Caitanya Mahāprabhu as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So how can they possibly...

Prabhupāda: Therefore they cannot understand the higher rasas.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Oh.

Prabhupāda: Unnata-ujjvala-rasam, they cannot understand.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: No, they can understand śānta-rasa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Dāsya-rasa.

Prabhupāda: That's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: But not sākhya.

Prabhupāda: Not more than that. They cannot meditate. There is no paternal rasa or madhurya-rasa in their community.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: No. And the Vallabhites, they also... Actually they don't accept Caitanya Mahāprabhu. They say Vallabhācārya is their Mahāprabhu. And they worship in...

Prabhupāda: Vallabhācārya was rejected by Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Yeah, I know that. So actually...

Prabhupāda: He was simply proud of his education. He had no realization.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: You explained that...

Acyutānanda: Do they worship in vātsalya-rasa, or just show?

Prabhupāda: Show, formality.

Acyutānanda: It's not genuine.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: It's not genuine.

Prabhupāda: Some of them say that "Kṛṣṅa, becoming..., before becoming polluted." They say like that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Yeah, they do.

Prabhupāda: That means childhood age, there is no pollution, and youthhood age, Kṛṣṅa's, it was polluted by the gopīs. This is their version. "Kṛṣṅa becomes polluted."

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Yeah, they say like that.

Prabhupāda: Do they say like that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Yes. I have spoken to them, in Hyderabad, that Bal Krishna Das. And another thing they say is that Rādhārāṅī's name is not mentioned in Bhāgavata. So this whole emphasis on Rādhā is not correct.

Acyutānanda: Is not correct.

Prabhupāda: That means they cannot understand rādhā-kṛṣṅa-praṅaya-vikṛti [Cc Ādi 1.5]. They cannot understand. And therefore in their community you won't find any high-class devotee. Simply official sentiment, that's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: I... Is Vallabhācārya...? So he cannot be considered actually in proper line.

Prabhupāda: Because Vallabhācārya was rejected by Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: He's in the line with...

Prabhupāda: He accepted him as a learned scholar, but He did not accept him as very highly realized soul.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: No, you explained that before. His guru, Vallabhācārya's guru, is... He's in Mādhavendra Purī's line?

Prabhupāda: Hmm? No.

Acyutānanda: Viṣṅu Svāmī...

Prabhupāda: They come in the Viṣṅu Svāmī. I do not exactly know who was his immediate guru.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Oh. I'm just trying to clear these points up because, I remember when I was preaching in South India, this discussion came up, that... Just like Mādhavendra Purī, he found the Deity of Gopāla, and you've explained...

Prabhupāda: That is our Gauḍīya. Mādhavendra Purī is Gauḍīya Vaiṣṅava.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Yes. You explained how he was worshiping the Deity. Now, that Deity of Gopāla...

Acyutānanda: Śrīnāthjī.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Śrīnāthjī. So that Deity was eventually handed over?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Acyutānanda: During Muhammadans, the Deity was moved.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: And Vallabhācārya...

Acyutānanda: I heard that after the death of Vallabhācārya, Sanātana Gosvāmī told his son to worship the Gopāla Deity. He engaged his son, Vallabhācārya's son, as a pūjārī in Govardhana. So then it came into their hands.

Prabhupāda: Hmm? That may be, yes.

Acyutānanda: Then, when the Deity was moved, it was moved to Nāthadvāra, and now they, now they are...

Prabhupāda: When the Deity was given to them, they could do anything.

Acyutānanda: Yes. 'Cause his son was all hopeless that "The ācārya is dead and my father is dead." He didn't know what to do. But they have written... They have pictures. They draw pictures of Śrīnāthjī on Govardhana, and Vallabhācārya is worshiping Him, all over.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: That is a big... That's the reason. It's a big mistake. I had a discussion with one man. So I was stating that Mādhavendra Purī found this Deity, Gopāla, but their teaching is that Vallabhācārya found the Deity. I said, "No, Mādhavendra Purī handed the Deity over later on for worship, but it was he who found the Deity and originated the worship on Govardhana, and all the villagers..."

Prabhupāda: It has been confirmed in the court that this Deity belongs to Gauḍīya Vaiṣṅavas. There was big case amongst themselves, and the court gave judgement that "This Deity belongs to the Gauḍīya Vaiṣṅava."

Acyutānanda: Oh. When was that court case?

Prabhupāda: Say, about four, five years ago. No, about ten to fifteen years ago.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Recently.

Acyutānanda: Who represented the Gauḍīya...?

Prabhupāda: Nobody, but from the history it was found that it belonged to Gauḍīya Vaiṣṅava. That... In Delhi one lawyer is there. He knows. He told me. [long pause]

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: In our Society, some devotees have an idea to spend money by employing professional men to advertise our Society in so many different ways, through advertising campaigns, etc. My idea is that our money should be spent on direct preaching. In other words, that can't...

Prabhupāda: Then we are spending advertisement for...?

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Well, sometimes I know... Just... I mean they hire professional firms to assist in public relations work.

Prabhupāda: Not in... What is that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: As an example, last year at Ratha-yātrā, two thousand dollars were spent to hire a professional group to assist them in making up the advertisements and other things, giving them guidance, general assistance...

Prabhupāda: If you get really assistance, there is no harm. Just like sometimes we go to the court, we pay to the lawyer, because we are not expert. In that sense, it can be spent.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: But cautiously.

Prabhupāda: Yes. For nothing, because you have got money, no. Unless it is urgently or absolute necessary, you should not spend.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: And there should be some... There should be some limitation. We should not spend tens of thousands of dollars...

Prabhupāda: No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: ...in such a way.

Acyutānanda: They shouldn't listen to the decisions of these professional men if they say, "Don't do this and don't do that."

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: No.

Prabhupāda: The president should be restricted that "You cannot spend more than this amount without sanction of GBC."

Acyutānanda: When we were in Bombay, there was an organization man, that one gentleman who was discussing with Bhagavān about the general organization of the Society, that you suggested we talk to him.

Prabhupāda: So many, they came. They simply talk.

Acyutānanda: There was one particular who...

Prabhupāda: They do not help.

Acyutānanda: No, when we were talking to him, he said that every temple should have its budget, and over that budget, the GBC should sanction. They have two accounts.

Prabhupāda: [hums] Hmm...

Acyutānanda: Prabhupāda... [indistinct]... [break] Mahāṁsa Mahārāja got the customs duty waiver for the bus from Germany... [break] What about the bullock carts?

Prabhupāda: Bullock cart is very good for India.

Acyutānanda: But that's for the small villages. The big towns, they're very far apart.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Well you are not supposed to go to the small villages. [end]