Room Conversation

Prabhupāda: Why the prison house is filled up with so many criminals?

Guest: Why the prison house is filled up?

Prabhupāda: Prison house. In the state.

Guest: With so many prisoners?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: Of course, many people are committing crimes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So that committing crimes is his option, or government canvasses that "You become criminal and give up"?

Guest: His option.

Prabhupāda: That's it. It is your option. You rot in this material world or go back to home, back to Godhead. That is your option. It is open to you both ways. You go to hell or go to heaven. That is your option. So human life is meant for selecting, "What shall I do? I shall go to hell or heaven?" And that is purpose[?]. If you want to go to hell, you can go. [pause]

Guest: What does Kṛṣṅa say about truth?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṅa is truth. Without Kṛṣṅa, everything is untruth. Truth is one. Just like zero is zero. And it is added with one, then it is ten. It is truth. So zero is zero always. Hundred million times zero adds, it is zero. But when there is one, immediately value increases. So without Kṛṣṅa, all this material advancement, they are all zeros. But if you bring Kṛṣṅa, then it..., that increases value—ten, hundred, thousand, tens of thousands, like that, million, billions. Because the one is there. So bring Kṛṣṅa, and then everything will be value. Otherwise, all zero. You may be proud of so-called material advancement. It is zero, because it will not save you, because tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg 2.13],

[As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change.]

you have to change your body. So you have earned so much millions and billions of money. That's all right. But you'll have to go empty-handed. The money will remain here. You cannot take that money within the tomb. That is not possible. Then it is zero.

You are going empty-handed. You came empty-handed and going empty-handed. You came with zero, and you are going with zero. So whatever you have earned, that is zero. But if you have attempted to serve Kṛṣṅa with all these zeros, then you have taken some value. Then Kṛṣṅa will see: "Oh, he has done so much for Me. Let him come here." Otherwise zero. What is the value of your skyscraper building and billions of dollars in the bank? You cannot take it with you. And this is called māyā. You cannot take it with you; still, you are struggling hard day and night. This is called māyā. Not a single farthing you will be able to take with you, and still, you are simply happy. They are called asses. Just like asses, they have so much big burden, but nothing of the burden belongs to him. Mūḍha. They are called mūḍha, asses. For nothing happiness, which he will never be able to take with him. What do they say? They are doing it for next generation.

Guest: Posterity.

Prabhupāda: He is not interested for himself. He is interested for his generation, which he will kill as soon as he's rebellious. Just see the argument.

Devotee (1): Prabhupāda, should everyone move to the temples?

Prabhupāda: Why?

Devotee (1): Live here?

Prabhupāda: Not necessarily. Invite him. But who is coming here? Nobody is coming.

Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, you are seeing Kṛṣṅa at every moment. Does this mean you are seeing Kṛṣṅa in His two-armed form playing the flute at every moment?

Prabhupāda: What do you think?

Devotee (2): I don't know, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Then? "Seeing" means Kṛṣṅa as He is. That's all. Santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti [Bs 5.38].

[I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who is Śyāmasundara, Kṛṣṅa Himself with inconceivable innumerable attributes, whom the pure devotees see in their heart of hearts with the eye of devotion tinged with the salve of love.]

You do not read Brahma-saṁhitā? Do you read?

Devotee (2): Yes, Prabhupāda. What you have of the Brahma-saṁhitā in your books.

Prabhupāda: Brahma-saṁhitā it is said, santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti. Those who are saintly persons, they always see Kṛṣṅa within his heart. Everyone can see if he tries. Why you and me? Anyone can see. Kṛṣṅa is open to everyone. But He is not open to the rascals. That is Kṛṣṅa's distinguish... Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ [Bg 7.25].

[I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent. For them I am covered by My eternal creative potency [yoga-māyā]; and so the deluded world knows Me not, who am unborn and infallible.]

He is open to everyone, but not to all others, only to the devotee.

Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, the Paramātmā feature is in the heart.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (3): And the pure devotee, does he see the Paramātmā feature, or does he see...?

Prabhupāda: When you see Kṛṣṅa, you see Paramātmā, Brahman, everything. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate [SB 1.2.11].

[Learned transcendentalists who know the Absolute Truth call this nondual substance Brahman, Paramātmā or Bhagavān.]

If you see... Just like when you see the sun, you see sunlight also. The sun... We see the sun globe, the sun light, simultaneously. Nobody says, "I am seeing the sun but not the sunshine." Is it? [laughter] He is seeing everything. He is seeing everything.

Devotee (3): But does he focus his mind upon the two-armed...?

Prabhupāda: There is no question of focus or no focus. One who sees Kṛṣṅa, he sees everything. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavanti [Muṅḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3].

[If one can understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the controller of all controllers, one can understand everything else.]

There is no question of imagination. This is fact. Hmm. What is that?

Satsvarūpa:

nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ mūḍho 'yaṁ nābhijānāti loko mām ajam avyayam [Bg 7.25]

[I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent. For them I am covered by My eternal creative potency [yoga-māyā]; and so the deluded world knows Me not, who am unborn and infallible.]

"I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent."

Prabhupāda: Yes. One who is foolish, nonintelligent, he cannot see Kṛṣṅa. Means Kṛṣṅa does not reveal to him. They never see. Next?

Satsvarūpa: "For them I am covered by My eternal creative potency, yogamāyā, and so the deluded world knows Me not, who am unborn and infallible."

Prabhupāda: If you have no qualification to see Him, even Kṛṣṅa comes before you, you cannot see. You will see Him, "Oh, He's an ordinary man like me," because you are not qualified to see Him. But when you become qualified, you will see Him always. Kuntīdevī said, "Kṛṣṅa, You are within and without; still, they cannot see You." If Kṛṣṅa is within and without, there are two things. Still, the example is given, naṭo nāṭya-dharo yathā [SB 1.8.19]. Just like a friend or a family member playing on the stage, and somebody says that "Your brother is playing." "Oh, where is my brother? Where is my brother?" "He is just playing this part, taken this part." "Oh." So he requires the help; otherwise he cannot see. Even he sees his brother or father playing on the stage, he cannot see. The example is very nice. Naṭo nāṭya-dharo yathā. He sees his brother at home, but he cannot see on the stage.

Everything requires qualification. Therefore this Kṛṣṅa consciousness movement is meant for qualifying you to see God twenty-four hours. This is sum and substance of Kṛṣṅa consciousness. If you learn this art, then you will see God twenty-four hours, without any stop. And that is accepted by Kṛṣṅa, that yoginām api... "He is first class who has learned to see God always in his..." Yogī means that. Yogī does not mean to play some magic. Magician also can play some magic. A devotee is not interested to show any magic, but he is interested to see the magician, supreme, who is playing so much magic. Yogīs, they are thinking that "If I can play some magic, then so many people will applaud, and that is my success." But a devotee doesn't want anything. A devotee wants to see who is playing the magic, supreme magician, yogeśvara. Yatra yogeśvaro hariḥ. [aside:] Find out, yatra yogeśvara hariḥ, Kṛṣṅa, Eighteenth Chapter. The supreme master of all yogic..., mystic yoga, Kṛṣṅa.

Satsvarūpa:

yatra yogeśvaraḥ kṛṣṅo yatra pārtho dhanur-dharaḥ tatra śrīr vijayo bhūtir dhruvā nītir matir mama [Bg 18.78]

"Wherever there is Kṛṣṅa, the master of all mystics, and wherever there is Arjuna, the supreme archer, there will also certainly be opulence, victory, extraordinary power and morality. That is my opinion."

Prabhupāda: Where there is Kṛṣṅa and His devotee, all opulences, all power, all strength—everything is there. Yatra yogeśvaraḥ kṛṣṅo yatra dhanur-dharaḥ pārthaḥ [Bg 18.78]. Wherever there is Arjuna... Just like Arjuna and Kṛṣṅa were on the chariot. Whole battlefield became victorious on behalf of Arjuna. That is wanted. A devotee must be there, and Kṛṣṅa must be there. Then all opulences will come. That is the secret. Why a devotee shall go to the forest for meditating or acquiring some mystic powers? He doesn't require anything. If he keeps Kṛṣṅa always with him, then everything will... Yes. Is there any purport?

Satsvarūpa: Yes. Purport: "The Bhagavad-gītā began with an inquiry by Dhṛtarāṣṭra." [break]

Guest: Could you speak to us on giving thanks to the Lord?

Satsvarūpa: Could you speak about giving thanks to the Lord.

Prabhupāda: That is Hare Kṛṣṅa. Chant Hare Kṛṣṅa always. That's all. All of us, we are keeping these beads: Hare Kṛṣṅa, Hare Kṛṣṅa.

Devotee (4): Prabhupāda, what can you say to someone who says, "Lord Jesus fed thousands of people fish"? What can you tell them?

Prabhupāda: If there is nothing available, what can be done? But when you have got such orange, such nice fruits, and rice and dāl and milk, why should you eat fish? After all, you have to eat something. If such nice things are not available, you can eat fish. But when very nice things are available, why should you eat? In other place Christ said that "These vegetables should be your meat," like that?

Satsvarūpa: In the Genesis, the very beginning of the Old Testament. "The plants shall be your meat."

Prabhupāda: One must eat something. The nature's law is that sahastānām... Sahastānām ahastāni [SB 1.13.47].

[Those who are devoid of hands are prey for those who have hands; those devoid of legs are prey for the four-legged. The weak are the subsistence of the strong, and the general rule holds that one living being is food for another.]

And catuṣ-padam. That is the arrangement by nature's way, that animals, they have no hands. So primitive life, so they become food for the primitive natives or uncivilized man. They kill some animals and eat. And why civilized man do so? He can produce his food. God has given him land. He has intelligence. Just like our temple commander was telling us. He has got immense opportunity... Just explain to them about you are producing with the farm.

Nityānanda: We have a farm, and we are producing all kinds of foodstuffs for men and animals. We grow...

Prabhupāda: This is our product, to produce for the animal, [indistinct]. So the animal eats it and he gives you milk. He's not eating [indistinct]. He gives you the nicest food, full of vitamins. And you can prepare from milk hundreds and thousands of so many palatable things. That is civilization. And this is not civilization: "Because cow is so potential, so let me eat the cow." "Guru is so sattvic, spiritual; let me eat guru. Then I will be guru." [laughter] This is philosophy. Cow is so full of vitamin, valuable. But civilization is that "Why should you eat the animal? Take the milk." What is this milk? Milk is nothing but the blood. So civilization means let the cow live, and you take the milk, which is nothing but blood. When the mother feeds the child with milk, wherefrom the milk comes? Milk comes from the blood of the mother. Therefore the mother is supplied nutritious food so that she can produce milk for the child. Similarly, cow is mother. What is this philosophy, "Kill the mothers and eat"? "Kill the child and eat"? What is this nonsense? Such crude things are going on in the name of civilization. You are manufacturing big big motorcars, and you cannot manufacture your food? God has given you so much land.

This is not civilization. Civilization is how to go back to home, back to Godhead. That is civilization. One should be intelligent enough. Education must be directed in that way. But they do not know. The rascals, they do not know it, that "My aim of life is how to go home, back to home, back to Godhead." That they do not know it. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṅuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ [SB 7.5.31].

[Persons who are strongly entrapped by the consciousness of enjoying material life, and who have therefore accepted as their leader or guru a similar blind man attached to external sense objects, cannot understand that the goal of life is to return home, back to Godhead, and engage in the service of Lord Viṣṅu. As blind men guided by another blind man miss the right path and fall into a ditch, materially attached men led by another materially attached man are bound by the ropes of fruitive labor, which are made of very strong cords, and they continue again and again in materialistic life, suffering the threefold miseries.]

These rascals are trying to adjust things here materially and becoming more complicated, killing father, mother, and child even. [break]

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Prabhupāda: This is not civilization. Human being must be civilized, to know the goal of life and do it properly. That is instruction in the Bhagavad-gītā: "You rascal, give up all these so-called engagements. Surrender unto Me." This is civilization. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṅaṁ vraja [Bg 18.66]. This is civilization. Then you will be all right. Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣa... You are engaged in so many sinful activities, as... Don't manufacture civilization. Take the idea of civilization from Kṛṣṅa. That is perfect civilization. The perfect civilization, Kṛṣṅa has giving idea, there must be first-class, second-class, third-class, fourth-class men. And less than: fourth class, fifth class.

So, first-class man is described, śamo damaḥ tapaḥ śaucaṁ kṣāntir ārjavam, these are the qualifications. Second class, these are the qualifications; third class, fourth class. So there are different varieties of men, so divide them according to the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, then whole human society will be... There are four division of your body—the head division, the arm division, the belly division, the leg division. If you engage the head for walking, that is mistake, and if you engage the leg for thinking, that is mistake. Similarly, there are different types of men. Combine together, and it will be nice body: the leg will walk, the hand will protect, the head will give instruction, and the belly will get energy by eating food. Those divisions are required. Not that everyone is all. No, there must be division of labor. So that is described, how to make civilization perfect, who is going to hear and take it. Cātur varṅyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṅa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg 4.13].

[According to the three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me. And, although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the non-doer, being unchangeable.]

If you can adjust things, you can utilize things, then everything will be useful. And if you do not know how to utilize things, then everything will be useless. Take instruction from Bhagavad-gītā and make everything useful. Then the human society will be perfect. Otherwise you'll go on manufacturing ideas, you'll never be successful. Because nature's law is working. You cannot interfere with the nature's law. That is not possible. You may think yourself very much advanced in science, but nature's law, you cannot interfere. Just like now there is movement, man and woman equal.

Nityānanda: Women's liberation.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but how the nature's law is strong. Woman has to become pregnant, not the man. Why equal right? Let the man become pregnant once, woman became pregnant once. The right. Where is that law? So why equal right? Brahmānanda was saying one day they'll not mix with man.

Nityānanda: Yes, they want to become not dependent sexually even on the men. Just on themselves.

Prabhupāda: So you have to study first of all what is nature's law. You cannot surpass the nature's law. That is not possible. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṅāni guṅaiḥ karmāṅi sarvaśaḥ [Bg 3.27].

[The bewildered spirit soul, under the influence of the three modes of material nature, thinks himself to be the doer of activities, which are in actuality carried out by nature.]

Nature's law will go on. Best thing is, let the hand... The hand can typewrite, but if you say, "No, the leg will typewrite," that is not possible. Take hand's business, take leg's business, and combine them cooperatively. Then the body will be nice. If the leg says, "Why hand will type? I shall type," that's not possible. "Legs, all right, you walk, and hands that you type." Then combine together. Then it will be nice. You cannot change the different capacities. There is God's law, nature's law. Let the man and woman combine together, live peacefully. The woman takes charge of the household affairs, the man may take charge of bringing money, and they meet together, have Deity at home, together chant Hare Kṛṣṅa. Where is the difficulty? That is unity. Combine together, working differently but for the same purpose, for pleasing Kṛṣṅa, then you will become happy. That is equality. Unity in variety. That is wanted. Variety is enjoyment. Variety is not disturbing. Just like Kṛṣṅa gave all of them fruits, but variety. They are coming from the same source, earth, but Kṛṣṅa is so intelligent—varieties of fruit, varieties of flowers, varieties of grain, varieties of brain. That is enjoyment. So, take instruction from Kṛṣṅa. Why He is sending so many varieties? He could have given one fruit, the coconut. With great difficulty to chop it you can get out the water, no? There are so many nice fruits. Just see Kṛṣṅa's intelligence. So Kṛṣṅa has made the varieties. Why should you disturb? Let the variety be united, just like these varieties are united, and it looks nice, and if you eat that will be nice.

Why you want to stop the variety? That is Māyāvādī. Equality does not mean to stop variety. All the varieties combine together for the same purpose. That is required. Is it not? One must know how to put the variety to look very [indistinct]. If all the vases have only rose flowers, it would not have been so beautiful. Rose is costly, but the leaves are not costly. But the leaves and the rose fit together, it becomes very good variety. That art is required, how to keep varieties together for Kṛṣṅa consciousness, and look very beautiful. This art is known to the Kṛṣṅa conscious person, not to the fools and rascals. Why Kṛṣṅa has made varieties? Why you should try to change? That is lack of Kṛṣṅa consciousness. When Kṛṣṅa has made so many varieties there is some purpose. That one should understand. That is intelligence. You can organize these farms very nicely. Then this devil's workshop will stop.

Nityānanda: What will stop?

Prabhupāda: The devil's workshop. Without proper engagement there is devil's workshop.

Devotee: Someday I'll take, later on...

Brahmānanda: They have difficulty in understanding how all the varieties can cooperate, because they don't have the center. They don't have a center; therefore to have varieties cooperating is difficult for them to understand.

Prabhupāda: Center to please, just like we have kept these varieties of flowers, to please me.

Brahmānanda: Because you're the center.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Brahmānanda: But they have not center.

Prabhupāda: Therefore I have given center, Kṛṣṅa.

Brahmānanda: Yes, that is..., therefore we can solve this commotion.

Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṅa. Give this garland... Center is Kṛṣṅa. That I [indistinct] to say. Bring one, the zeros will have value. And if you get out the one, all zeros. This is our philosophy. [pause] World can be ruled, they believe so also. Is that?

Brahmānanda: The modern civilization has made everything easy, everything convenient.

Prabhupāda: Not easy; difficult.

Brahmānanda: Well, as far as doing one's life's activities, they make it easy for you. Buying in the supermarket, canned food, it's already cooked, you put it in the oven, five minutes it's ready. They have laundry machines...

Prabhupāda: That is not very healthy.

Brahmānanda: Oh, no. But they have made it so that there's less...

Prabhupāda: They are impetus to catch their disease.

Brahmānanda: So these are the reactions.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The disease is already there, but we have made such a disease that it will be incurable.

Nityānanda: They're giving the water out of it to make it dry.

Prabhupāda: What you do with this when it is dry?

Nityānanda: Put it in a silo, to preserve it and feed it to the cows later. In this silo the grass will keep good for many years without spoiling by heat. Then after it dries a little more, this machine, it stuffs it and puts it in a wagon. It picks it up from the field.

Prabhupāda: Then what you do with that?

Nityānanda: Then you take the wagon to the silo and put it in the silo, so that it fills. Now you put the wagon with the cut grass up at the bottom of the silo, and it comes out and loads it up to the silo.

Prabhupāda: So you have got up-to-date machine for feeding these animals. Eh? They are made for feeding the animals? Eh? Enough food for them and take milk. Why they should be killed? There is no problem. So teach those yogīs about the real idea, like that.

Satsvarūpa: Is it all right to use modern machines on our farms?

Prabhupāda: As far as possible don't use machine. Let people be engaged.

Satsvarūpa: Animals?

Prabhupāda: Animal. Yes.

Satsvarūpa: Not gas-driven engine.

Prabhupāda: Let people be engaged. Machine means one man or two man working... That will mean unemployment. Machine means unemployment. The principle should be that everyone is employed. Either brāhmaṅa, either kṣatriya, either vaiśya or śūdra. Nobody should become idle and gossiping, and sleeping. Then utilize... This should be principle. Everyone should be engaged in Kṛṣṅa consciousness, then life is successful. And self-sufficient. If we have got spoiling living program, these are necessities. Growing, cultivating, producing, there will be not possibility of, and we don't want more than the necessity. If by God's grace we get more, then you can make sale. We are not going to work for selling purpose. Then money will be there. "How to get money? How to get money?" And as soon as you get money more than necessity, then sense gratification, then this, that, this, that, then you become implicated. Ato gṛha kṣetra sutāpta..., ahaṁ mameti [SB 5.5.8]. As soon as you become implicated with material want, gṛha, kṣetra, vittair, ato gṛha kṣetra sutāpta, children, wife, friendship, then the false ego, "I am this body and this is my property," will increase. For that is material world. People do not know the end of life, or the aim of life. They are misguided. Hence the Kṛṣṅa consciousness movement to give them an ideal way of life. So this is very nice place. We have got small lakes also. Natural we have?

Nityānanda: No, you can make them.

Prabhupāda: How? How low is the water?

Nityānanda: Ten feet.

Prabhupāda: Ten feet, oh, just like Bengal. As soon as you dig ten feet there is water.

Nityānanda: No, it's, ah, when you have a gulley, you build a dam at one end and it fills up with water from the rain, and it stays full.

Prabhupāda: Oh, the rain is sufficient here? How many months it rain?

Nityānanda: There is no definite rainy season. It rains all year round.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that's very good. Winter?

Nityānanda: No snow; it's always rain. We can grow vegetables in the summer, and different vegetables in the winter. So the cows, they can stay outside all year. They don't have to stay in the barn. It's warm enough.

Prabhupāda: Very ideal spot. Develop it and show how we can live peacefully.

Nityānanda: This combination of a temple in the city where they can preach and bring people out to their farm is very good.

Prabhupāda: ...healthy place.

Nityānanda: So mostly gṛhasthas should stay on the farms, or brahmacārīs also?

Prabhupāda: No, brahmacārīs and sannyāsīs especially, they should preach. And gṛhasthas may produce necessities. They also preach, preaching everyone. Especially for brahmacārī and sannyāsī. [end]