Morning Walk

Prabhupāda: Jaya. You are growing this flowers?

Śaṅka: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Many?

Śaṅka: Many, Śrīla Prabhupāda

Prabhupāda: That's nice. It is very nice flower.

Śaṅka: Also campaka trees, many campaka trees, down here, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Ah, thank you. Grow such flowers. [break]

Harikeśa: [whispers] Got an umbrella?

Prabhupāda: What are these trees?

Harikeśa: [whispers] We should bring an umbrella.

Prabhupāda: These... [break] There is no understanding? [break]

Dr. Patel: Japan also.

Prabhupāda: Japan also. Well, everyone is against us.

Dr. Patel: No, these boys who are recruited newly, they don't have much about the idea of Vaiṣṅavism. That is the...

Prabhupāda: That's all right. That's a fact. But what can I do? They are my helper.

Dr. Patel: They have to be trained up earlier and then let loose. Otherwise, you know, they create it. Because all the bad impressions are for them.

Prabhupāda: No. They'll be trained while working. Not that simply theorizing at home. No.

Dr. Patel: That's right, but I think...

Prabhupāda: They should work, and at the same time, they may fall down, just like a child tries to walk, falls down, again walks, again... Then he becomes complete.

Dr. Patel: Those thirty, I mean, characteristics of a sādhu that are depicted in the, in Bhāgavata....

Prabhupāda: That is not possible in one day.

Dr. Patel: Thirty cannot come, but a few should come.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Few that... They are... Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṅais tatra samāsate [SB 5.18.12].

[All the demigods and their exalted qualities, such as religion, knowledge and renunciation, become manifest in the body of one who has developed unalloyed devotion for the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Vāsudeva. On the other hand, a person devoid of devotional service and engaged in material activities has no good qualities. Even if he is adept at the practice of mystic yoga or the honest endeavor of maintaining his family and relatives, he must be driven by his own mental speculations and must engage in the service of the Lord's external energy. How can there be any good qualities in such a man?]

If they have got unflinching faith in Kṛṣṅa and guru, that is all qualification.

Dr. Patel: That is a fact.

Prabhupāda: That is all qualification. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṅaiḥ. All these qualities are already there.

Dr. Patel: But for that, you see, he has to withdraw his mind and all the senses from...

Prabhupāda: Even he does not withdraw, even it is sudurācāra, api cet sudurācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk sādhur eva saḥ [Bg 9.30].

[Even if one commits the most abominable actions, if he is engaged in devotional service, he is to be considered saintly because he is properly situated.]

Dr. Patel: But then bhajate mām ananya-bhāk.

Prabhupāda: Yes, ananya-bhāk, they are doing that.

Dr. Patel: Without severing his mind, anywhere he goes...

Prabhupāda: No. They are fixed up in Kṛṣṅa. That is a fact. That is a fact. You cannot bribe them to take from this Kṛṣṅa consciousness. That is not possible. They may commit some mistake, but they are fixed up in Kṛṣṅa. That is bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. You cannot deviate them. Sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ [Bg 9.30]. So this qualification they have, and for this qualification they will be triumphant, without anything else.

[aside:] We shall return now?

Dr. Patel: Those thirty qualifications do come naturally, as you say, but they come slowly. But [Hindi] we must teach them this in the kṛṣṅa-bhakti, the qualities of a real sādhu.

Prabhupāda: If you make a condition that "First of all you become qualified; then you preach," that will never come. Rūpa Gosvāmī therefore recommends, yena tena prakāreṅa manaḥ kṛṣṅe niveśayet [Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.4],

[One should fix his mind on Kṛṣṅa by any means. All the rules and prohibitions mentioned in the śāstras should be the servants of this principle.]

that "Somehow or other bring him to Kṛṣṅa consciousness." Then other... Sarve vidhi-niṣedhāḥ. Vidhi-niṣedhāḥ. Sarve vidhi-niṣedhā syur etayor eva kiṅkarāḥ. Automatically they'll come as servant. First of all let their mind be fixed up on Kṛṣṅa consciousness.

Dr. Patel: But the present difficulties are because they don't know the vidhi-niṣedhas.

Prabhupāda: So how they can know?

Dr. Patel: That is the difficulty.

Prabhupāda: How they can know?

Dr. Patel: That is the difficulty.

Prabhupāda: So we... We are bringing them from which status? Yes. You cannot expect that they will be perfect all of a sudden, overnight. It is not possible. But their mind being fixed up on Kṛṣṅa consciousness, that is the first qualification. They do not know anything beyond Kṛṣṅa. That's all.

Dr. Patel: In our Vaiṣṅava religions this vidhi-niṣedha is a must, right from the beginning.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is must. It is must. But you cannot force in the beginning. That is not possible.

Dr. Patel: But they have to be explained of it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But if they fix up their mind in Kṛṣṅa, the vidhi-niṣedha automatically will come. That process I adopted. When they came to me I never said that "You don't do this, don't do that, don't do that." No. "You simply come here and chant Hare Kṛṣṅa." These are... Old students learned. I never said that "You have to follow these rules, these regulation, then you can come..." Because if chanting is properly done, then ceto-darpaṅa-mārjanam [Cc Antya 20.12],

[Let there be all victory for the chanting of the holy name of Lord Kṛṣṅa, which can cleanse the mirror of the heart and stop the miseries of the blazing fire of material existence. That chanting is the waxing moon that spreads the white lotus of good fortune for all living entities. It is the life and soul of all education. The chanting of the holy name of Kṛṣṅa expands the blissful ocean of transcendental life. It gives a cooling effect to everyone and enables one to taste full nectar at every step.]

the mind will be cleansed of all dirty things. Śṛṅvatāṁ sva-kathā kṛṣṅa puṅya-śravaṅa-kīrtanaḥ [SB 1.2.17].

[Śrī Kṛṣṅa, the Personality of Godhead, who is the Paramātmā [Supersoul] in everyone's heart and the benefactor of the truthful devotee, cleanses desire for material enjoyment from the heart of the devotee who has developed the urge to hear His messages, which are in themselves virtuous when properly heard and chanted.]

Simply by hearing and chanting, they will be pious. Hṛdy antaḥ 'stho hy abhadrāṅi vidhunoti suhṛt satām. Kṛṣṅa is there. As soon as He sees one devotee is sincerely chanting, He'll help, cleansing the heart. Vidhunoti... You will read Ajāmila upākhyāna. Simply by chanting "Nārāyaṅa..."

Dr. Patel: Ajāmila got it.

Prabhupāda: Offenseless.

Dr. Patel: All psychological matters, and in the bhakti-mārga, it is the sūkṣma-śarīra which is more important than the sthūla.

Prabhupāda: Eh.

Dr. Patel: The behavior of the sūkṣma-śarīra is more important than the sthūla.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is... The example is given that Ganges water, even it is superficially..., there are floating stool and foams...

Dr. Patel: Dead bodies also.

Prabhupāda: So this stool and foam does not pollute the Ganges water. You set it aside and take your dip. That example is given that. External feature does not pollute the soul. Asaṅgo 'ya hi puruṣaḥ. The puruṣa... It is simply our abhiniveṣa. Abhiniveṣa is dangerous. Otherwise, the soul has nothing to do with this body.

Dr. Patel: That's right. No, soul is separate from all the three bodies.

Prabhupāda: Exactly like that: One is on the motorcar. He has nothing to do with the motorcar, but if he thinks, "My car is life. Everything my..."

Dr. Patel: Air is coming into...

Prabhupāda: That abhiniveṣa gives him trouble. So this abhiniveṣa can be removed by increasing Kṛṣṅa consciousness. And the Kṛṣṅa consciousness is increased by following the regulative duties: rise early in the morning, have maṅgala ārati, this, that, up to ten o'clock. Means vidhi.

Dr. Patel: That is religious vidhi.

Prabhupāda: So by vidhi, he becomes practiced, and....

Dr. Patel: That becomes a nature then.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then it is nature.

Dr. Patel: And finally it gives you sākṣād-dharma.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: All that thing [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: They are... The vidhi-niṣedha, if you give up vidhi-niṣedha, then you cannot improve.

Dr. Patel: No, the vidhi-niṣedha is a must. Otherwise you are a daitya sort of a thing, even though you may be practicing anything.

Prabhupāda: So that they are doing. They are following the regulative principles: no illicit sex, no intoxication, no meat-eating. This is vidhi-niṣedha.

Dr. Patel: I quite understand, sir. But the most important, the climax of the whole thing, is that you see the presence of God everywhere, which is very difficult in the beginning, I understand. But they should be informed that "This is our aim, that Kṛṣṅa is everywhere, and we have a darśana of Kṛṣṅa everywhere." Then and then he would not spite another man.

Prabhupāda: That they know. This is preliminary, that Kṛṣṅa is everywhere. Hare Kṛṣṅa. Not like... Not like the Ārya-samājīs: "Kṛṣṅa is everywhere except in the temple."

Dr. Patel: [laughs] You have to create a temple within you, then seat Kṛṣṅa there.

Prabhupāda: No, whatever it may be, their proposition is "Kṛṣṅa is everywhere, but not in this temple. Don't go to the temple." That is their proposition.

Dr. Patel: They have theorized that just to oppose Islam. I don't think they meant much about it.

Prabhupāda: What they have done? Simply hallucination.

Dr. Patel: They believe more in the Vedic scriptures and Vedic injunctions than other things.

Prabhupāda: And all the ācāryas, they are fools.

Dr. Patel: No, no.

Prabhupāda: Then they have meant that...

Dr. Patel: They don't believe in these Purāṅas. That is a misfortune for them.

Prabhupāda: Why? Why?

Dr. Patel: That is a misfortune.

Prabhupāda: Not only that. They write Satya-artha-prakāśa. That means they have understood the real meaning, and all the ācāryas, they are fools. That is their intelligence, satya-artha-prakāśa, that so long there was no satyārtha; now they have invented satyārtha. This is their intelligence.

Dr. Patel: So Vaiṣṅava ācāryas have actually... I mean, through bhakti people realize the presence of God everywhere.

Prabhupāda: No, no. In comparison to Vaiṣṅava ācāryas... Apart from the Vaiṣṅava ācāryas, they have done nothing even like me, what to speak of the ācāryas. I am only a servant and a servant of the ācāryas. They could not do anything. They admit. Real Ārya-samājīs, they admit that, that "What was our program, you have executed."

Dr. Patel: In Punjab there was lot of Muslim hierarchy, and that is what they wanted, that... Ārya-samājīs.

Prabhupāda: But we are not against any "ism," either Muslimism or Christianism. This Kṛṣṅa consciousness, we never preach against anyone.

Dr. Patel: It was a socio-economic problem or socio-political, not a religious problem.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, but we never criticize anyone. When the Christians come forward—"Whether our Christian religion can also give the same meaning?"—"Yes, why not?" Yes.

Dr. Patel: It has the same bhakti.

Prabhupāda: I never said...

Dr. Patel: But I think the Christianity is nothing but bhāgavata-dharma. It has been preached in a different way.

Prabhupāda: They inquire, "What is your opinion of Jesus Christ?" And "He is our guru."

Dr. Patel: It's a fact.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: I mean, that is what it is, in fact.

Prabhupāda: We do not...

Dr. Patel: The Christians don't know that we take it like that.

Prabhupāda: Even if we say "Muhammad," why not? Anyone who has preached Kṛṣṅa consciousness—may be little differently according to time, circumstances—but anyone who has tried to preach the God consciousness, he is guru. Yei kṛṣṅa tattva vettā, sei guru haya [Cc Madhya 8.128].

[Whether one is a brāhmaṅa, a sannyāsī or a śūdra—regardless of what he is—he can become a spiritual master if he knows the science of Kṛṣṅa.]

That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's version. Anyone who preaches about the Supreme Lord, he is guru. May be in a different way, according to time, circumstances. The Muhammad also said Allahu akbar.

Dr. Patel: Only the difference is that Muhammad is trying to worship nirañjana, nirākāra, and we...

Prabhupāda: No, no, not nirākāra. That is not...

Dr. Patel: Even Christianity considers His ākāra—"God has form."

Prabhupāda: No, Muhammadan also has got... Caitanya Mahāprabhu argued in Koran. He proved there is kṛṣṅa-bhakti. He proved with the Pathans. Yes.

Dr. Patel: Otherwise the Christianity is just our way, I mean, absolutely Vaisnavism. It has been wrongly preached and wrongly initiated in India. That is why it has fallen to disrepute. Otherwise Christianity is just vaiṣṅava-dharma. Nothing else, to my mind, the way I have studied, I mean the New Testament and all the Christian, all the things. Now, the sermon of Christ is nothing but the preaching of Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: I never criticized. I simply said that positive side, God consciousness.

Dr. Patel: Christ himself was drunk with God consciousness totally.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Patel: Christ himself was drunk with God consciousness in toto, absolute. There cannot be a higher bhakta than that. It is said that Jesus Christ learned all these things in India. It might be a fact.

Passerby: [chanting ślokas]

Dr. Patel: And he, daily bhakta. He came for pūjā, for guru. [break]

Prabhupāda: ...devatā bhaktāḥ, te 'pi mām eva kaunteya yajanty avidhi-purvakam [Bg 9.23]. They give examples as the gopīs worshiped Kātyāyanī. But that is not avidhi. They went to Kātyāyanī for getting the favor of Kṛṣṅa. They prayed to mother Kātyāyanī, "Please be favorable to us so that Kṛṣṅa may be pleased upon us." Others go to beg from Kātyāyanī some material benefits, but the gopīs, they did not ask for any material benefit. And therefore that is vidhi.

Dr. Patel: Gopīs... Those who worship Kṛṣṅa with sort of a sexual intention, but they became beyond the, I mean, guṅas, nirguṅa [Hindi], because Kṛṣṅa was nirguṅa. That is the thing.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They became purified. That is simply so they are purified. So...

Dr. Patel: Then, in ordinary social conditions also, when you have a friend, you become a great lover, certain characteristics come through.

Prabhupāda: Any condition, if you come to Kṛṣṅa, then you become purified.

Dr. Patel: I know. But what I mean to say, when you have conditioned yourself with Kṛṣṅa, Kṛṣṅa's guṅas will come to you, I mean...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: ...nirguṅa, nirguṅatvam, beyond the three guṅas of māyā.

Prabhupāda: There is a verse in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, etad īśanam īśasya [SB 1.11.38]. This is the, what is called, īśanam, means controlling power of Kṛṣṅa, that when He comes in this material world, He is not infected.

Dr. Patel: That is all the Vaiṣṅava ācāryas' teaching.

Prabhupāda: That is īśanam.

Dr. Patel: Even though we see Him as an ordinary physical body or a human body, but that is divya body, and it is not contaminated by any guṅas.

Prabhupāda: And because it is not contaminated, therefore it is not ordinary body. Therefore anyone who thinks of Kṛṣṅa as possessing ordinary body, he is described as mūḍha. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritāḥ [Bg 9.11].

[Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature and My supreme dominion over all that be.]

In the ordinary human..., this material body, nobody can be controller of the laws of nature. That is not possible. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṅa. Jaya. Unless one has got spiritual body, it is not possible to be unaffected by this material world. Kṛṣṅa never became old, although He lived for 125 years. He never became old. Now, how you can say...?

Dr. Patel: He was the controller of māyā, but we are being controlled by the māyā.

Prabhupāda: No, no, anyway, a 125-years-old and looking like a young man of twenty years old, how it is possible in a material body?

Dr. Patel: So all the avatāras of God, they come with a controlling...

Prabhupāda: Ātma-māyā.

Dr. Patel: Controlling.

Prabhupāda: Sambhavāmy ātma-māyayā [Bg 4.6].

[Although I am unborn and My transcendental body never deteriorates, and although I am the Lord of all sentient beings, I still appear in every millennium in My original transcendental form.]

They do not come under the control of this mahāmāyā. They have got their own spiritual potency. Āhlādinī-śakti. Ātmanaṁ sṛjāmy aham. Ātmanam: "Myself, I advent." How it can be like ordinary man? We are..., karmaṅā daiva-netreṅa [SB 3.31.1].

[The Personality of Godhead said: Under the supervision of the Supreme Lord and according to the result of his work, the living entity, the soul, is made to enter into the womb of a woman through the particle of male semen to assume a particular type of body.]

We get body. But He says....

Dr. Patel: And it is by His own free will.

Prabhupāda: Yes, as He likes. He likes to appear as fish, that's all. Not that... Ordinary fish, it is forced to take the body of a fish.

Dr. Patel: We are controlled by māyā and its actions...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: ...and take this body for the fulfillment of māyā.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: He takes the body to fulfill His mission.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the way. That is a real understanding of Kṛṣṅa. Hare Kṛṣṅa. As soon as the Māyāvādī thinks that Kṛṣṅa also accepts a material body... Therefore they are called Māyāvādī. They are called Māyāvādī because they think Kṛṣṅa's body is also māyā. Therefore they are known as Māyāvādīs.

Dr. Patel: He takes birth in divya-vigraha.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Their story is: "As soon as there is form, it is māyā." They cannot think beyond that in their own terms. Because we have got this form, material body, so their generalization is, "As soon as Kṛṣṅa or Viṣṅu, anyone, if He takes this form, then it is material." That is called māyā.

Dr. Patel: But He takes the form with the control over māyā. We take the form under control of māyā.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He is the controller of māyā. That they do not understand.

Dr. Patel: They don't understand what is divya-vigraha.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They understand slightly sac-cid-ānanda, but they cannot think of that sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ. Śāstra says, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṅaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs 5.1].

[Kṛṣṅa who is known as Govinda is the Supreme Godhead. He has an eternal blissful spiritual body. He is the origin of all. He has no other origin and He is the prime cause of all causes.]

That they cannot understand, being less intelligent. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu has explained, they cannot understand this. Māyāvādī haya kṛṣṅa aparādhī.

Dr. Patel: They are aparādhīs of Kṛṣṅa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They, the Māyāvādīs, they are offender to Kṛṣṅa; therefore they cannot understand Kṛṣṅa. Aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ [SB 10.2.32].

[[Someone may say that aside from devotees, who always seek shelter at the Lord's lotus feet, there are those who are not devotees but who have accepted different processes for attaining salvation. What happens to them? In answer to this question, Lord Brahmā and the other demigods said:] O lotus-eyed Lord, although nondevotees who accept severe austerities and penances to achieve the highest position may think themselves liberated, their intelligence is impure. They fall down from their position of imagined superiority because they have no regard for Your lotus feet.]

In other places it is said, aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ. Their intelligence is still unclean. Vimukta-māninaḥ. They are thinking that they have become liberated, māninaḥ, imposition, but actually aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ. Their intelligence is not yet clear.

Dr. Patel: Clouded, cloudy.

Prabhupāda: Clouded, yes. Aviśuddha. Therefore Kṛṣṅa confirms this. Because the aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ, it takes many, many lives to purify it. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante [Bg 7.19].

[After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.]

So everything is explained there. We are preaching Kṛṣṅa consciousness not with emptyWhen they come to the purified stage, then they surrender: vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabha. They continue to be aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ unless they come to the point of surrendering to Kṛṣṅa. And we are unintelligent persons—we do it immediately. Let us do it immediately. Why we shall wait for many, many births?

Dr. Patel: It is not that, sir. I think complete surrendering of our ego at the sacred feet of Kṛṣṅa.

Prabhupāda: Yes, and they cannot.

Dr. Patel: That is bhakti.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but they cannot do it.

Dr. Patel: Because they are egoistic toward the body.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only that. They think they are very intelligent, overintelligent. They do not take advice of Kṛṣṅa even. They are so intelligent that Kṛṣṅa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg 18.66], Kṛṣṅa says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti, and still they will stick to their jñāna, yoga, karma. Kṛṣṅa clearly says that "You cannot understand Me by this process." Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi [Bg 18.55]:

[One can understand the Supreme Personality as He is only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of the Supreme Lord by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God.]

"If you want to know Me in truth, then bhakti. Nothing else." And still, they will stick to those.

Dr. Patel: No, but I think they have not understood even Śaṅkarācārya. Śaṅkarācārya has composed stotras on Viṣṅu and... Bhaja govindam, bhaja govinda, govindaṁ bhaja mūḍha-mate...

Prabhupāda: Yes. They have become more than Śaṅkarācārya.

Dr. Patel: They have seen the [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: Just like later on, the Gandhi's disciples became more than Gandhi, more than Gandhi. That's all. Gandhi planned village organization and Jawaharlal Nehru planned industrialization. And everything failed. There is no money, and he wanted to establish industry like America.

Dr. Patel: But he did not understand economics, sir. What is money, after all? Money is nothing but the labor transformed into materials. We had the huge labor of sixty crores of people. He was not capable of transforming that labor into material, unfortunately, and...

Prabhupāda: Anyway, they changed the Gandhi's program.

Dr. Patel: That is what Gandhi understood, but he did not.

Prabhupāda: How he can understand? He wanted to utilize to become prime minister.

Dr. Patel: Internationally that happened.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṅa. Jaya. Now the village program of Gandhi is lost.

Dr. Patel: Absolutely. But whatever he has got, he had a lot of vidhi-niṣedha...

Prabhupāda: And it is lost because it was not God-centered. It is lost.

Dr. Patel: But he was God conscious. I mean, I have been brought up in that camp. Gandhi was a saint. But these people could not follow him. They have not understood him well. Those people who understood him, they died out. They died out.

Prabhupāda: Now, now, Gandhi's āśrama, was there any temple for worshiping Kṛṣṅa? No.

Dr. Patel: They had a temple. My wife was brought up there in the āśrama.

Prabhupāda: There was a temple?

Dr. Patel: In the morning they had to say prayer to Deva.[?] Gītā-mandir they had. [indistinct comments with another man] They had all the characteristics of a good saint.

Prabhupāda: Why not from the beginning? No, no, no. Gandhi did not believe in Kṛṣṅa. No. Yes, he has written, that "I know..."

Dr. Patel: Not that the way we believe, but he did believe.

Prabhupāda: No. That means he is right and we are wrong.

Dr. Patel: We may be right. We may be right. Who knows? Many ways may be right. It is not only that one way be right.

Prabhupāda: Then how we understand who is right and who is wrong?

Dr. Patel: There cannot be only one way. There are many ways.

Prabhupāda: That is the defect. Therefore we present Bhagavad-gītā as it is, no other way.

Indian man (2): Gandhi was a politician.

Dr. Patel: He was not a politician. He was more a bhakta than a politician. He fell in politics. He was a saintly man turned into a politician. He was more a saintly man than a politician. He failed in politics. I have seen it.

Prabhupāda: No, he was studied by the governor of Bengal, that "Either Gandhi is a saintly man amongst the politician or he is a politician among the saintly persons." [laughter]

Dr. Patel: These people have not been able to understand Gandhi's intentions. It is the misfortune of this country they have not been able to carry out his message. Other people are able to carry out his messages. Other people of the world are able to understand him well, but we people are fools not to understand him. No. His socio-economic condition..., I mean program. His program for lifting the society... You are religious head. He was a sort of a, another man, but in his own spirit he was doing a good work.

Prabhupāda: Our proposition is that Bhagavad-gītā begins to distinguish the soul...

Dr. Patel: From the body.

Prabhupāda: And the body. But Gandhi has never said anywhere.

Dr. Patel: He was always, you know, anāsakta-yoga.

Prabhupāda: No, no, that is all right, but...

Dr. Patel: He always used to, daily, twice...

Prabhupāda: In the beginning this is the... You can have any yoga, anāsakti or āsakti, but the primary instruction is one has to understand first of all this, that one is not this body. And the national movement is based on this bodily concept of life: "I am Indian."

Dr. Patel: All the national... All the world's on that body.

Prabhupāda: So that is the difference. First of all one has to understand that he is neither Indian nor American nor English. But if you go on pushing on national movement, where is the chance of understanding that you are not this body? Just like our movement, we never say anything national. We simply state that "You are not this body. You are spirit soul."

Dr. Patel: Gandhiji, when he went to one first round table conference in London, and he had to confront those women, I mean the wives of the workers of the Manchester mills, he said that "We are poor." They say, "We are poor. We are suffering for the poor of India." Then he had to give this argument that "Poors of India are much poorer than what you are." So he is trying to, I mean, take a...

Prabhupāda: So that is bodily concept.

Dr. Patel: But he was in politics.

Prabhupāda: Poor or rich, that is due to this body.

Dr. Patel: In politics you have got to be body conscious. Politics or war is the same thing, after all. Your sphere is much different, sir, than those people's. And we cannot compare them with you or you with them. You are a, I mean, out and out a bhakta and a saint. He was a politician.

Prabhupāda: No. I am talking about the Bhagavad-gītā...

Dr. Patel: All right, Bhagavad-gītā. Whatever little we understand, we preach.

Prabhupāda: ...that the first principle of Bhagavad-gītā is to understand that "I am not this body."

Dr. Patel: [dog barking] Hut! Hut! Gandhiji's program was to emancipate the poor, downtrodden people of India in whatever way... In that way, in which there is no implication of falsehood and wrong things.

Prabhupāda: No, it may not be falsehood, but...

Dr. Patel: It will be by the right way.

Prabhupāda: This may not be the right way.

Dr. Patel: May not be or wrong way, we do not know. But then he did. According to him, he brought and he tried, and he struggled...

Prabhupāda: No, no, we simply study that the Bhagavad-gītā begins with this education, that "You are not this body." Yes. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā [Bg 2.13].

[As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change.]

Asmin dehe, dehi. It has nothing to do with this kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. This is to be understood. The whole world requires to understand this verse; otherwise they remain go-khara.

Dr. Patel: That is right, sir. That has been explained from time immemorial, but the world does not understand.

Prabhupāda: No, no, why not? These people are understanding. These all Kṛṣṅa conscious students, they are understanding. Otherwise...

Dr. Patel: These type of students were eternally there with all the religious teachings, past and present. But unfortunately...

Prabhupāda: So those who were there, they understood. They...

Dr. Patel: Unfortunate for the world it is not going to do that.

Prabhupāda: No, there was no preaching. That's it. Now the preaching is going on, they are understanding. Nobody preached this. [pause] If you... Just like a big building. If the foundation is wrong, then it will not stay.

Dr. Patel: This Bhagavad-gītā has got everything, all aspects of life.

Prabhupāda: No, no. This is the beginning of teaching, that "You are not this body." If you remain in the false understanding that "I am this body," "I am Indian," "I am Englishman," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," there is no spiritual education. Mohita. That is called mohita. Tribhir guṅamayair bhāvair, mohitaṁ nābhijānāti. He remains in ignorance. [aside:] [Hindi] Jaya.

Passerby: [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: He's a great devotee. Humbleness.

tṛṅād api sunīcena taror api sahiṣṅunā amāninā mānadena kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ [Cc Ādi 17.31]

[One who thinks himself lower than the grass, who is more tolerant than a tree, and who does not expect personal honor yet is always prepared to give all respect to others can very easily always chant the holy name of the Lord.]

Caitanya...

Dr. Patel: Out of all those things, māna...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: ...is the first thing that a man should...

Prabhupāda: Humble and meek. Christ also taught like that. "The humble and meek will go to the kingdom of God."

Dr. Patel: "Meek and humble will..." What is that?

Prabhupāda: Here the disease is nobody is humble, nobody is meek.

Dr. Patel: That is car-dharma.

Prabhupāda: Not car...

Dr. Patel: Car-dharma is that.

Prabhupāda: That is material dharma.

Dr. Patel: This is Kali-yuga going on.

Prabhupāda: Kali-yuga, it is excessive, but this is going on. Even... Maybe in Satya-yuga it was less.

Dr. Patel: Maybe nothing, perhaps, the first Satya-yuga. People were all saints.

Prabhupāda: [Hindi]

Dr. Patel: But they are fools. They should have kept more on the side of it, not middle of the road.

Prabhupāda: It is now in the middle of the street.

Dr. Patel: The government of this country is going on everywhere.

Prabhupāda: We have nothing to do. We are world. But it is in the middle of the street.

Dr. Patel: I have got a khila[?] This khila.[?]

Prabhupāda: Yes. It has dignified.

Dr. Patel: They ought to thicken wall with a little under, because this kaccā wall foundation is there. They should make it... [indistinct] this wall. They should dress it up, the foundation, which is above. No? [pause] You are going away today?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee: Tomorrow... [break] [end]