Morning Walk

Prabhupāda: [indistinct] ...a man will think that "I shall be happy in this material world," he'll not be able to take Kṛṣṅa consciousness. Hare Kṛṣṅa.

Cyavana: The slightest tinge of a material desire will force him to take another body. Is that it?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṅa will give him full advantage of enjoying this material world. Unless he is disgusted, he cannot. He'll not become disgusted. Therefore Kṛṣṅa says, "Give up this." Personally, he is not going to be disgusted. Māyā. Therefore Kṛṣṅa personally asks him, "Give up this business." Sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg 18.66]. But we are thinking, "Eh! Why this man asking like this? Sarva-dharmān parityajya. I shall give up my business, I shall give up my family, I shall give up my country and simply surrender to Him? Oh, it is too much." Sophisticated. What is called? "Sophistry." What is sophistry?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: Sophistry?

Prabhupāda: Yes?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: Half wise, half foolish.

Brahmānanda: Sophistry means some...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Brahmānanda: ... philosophy that is not sound. Superficial.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is... That is the remark of Dr. Radhakrishnan, when Kṛṣṅa said like that. That means "He... Too much," because he thinks, "Kṛṣṅa is..., may be a very big man, but He's a man. Why He is asking like that?" [break] ...first business is to give him always miseries so that he may be disgusted. But he is so foolish, he is not becoming disgusted. Everyone knows this is very troublesome world, but nobody is disgusted.

Cyavana: He's like the horse who chases after the carrot. He never gets it, but still, he keeps trying for it. He never becomes fed up. He keeps trying.

Prabhupāda: There are many examples. Matir na kṛṣṅe parataḥ svato vā [SB 7.5.30].

[Prahlāda Mahārāja replied: Because of their uncontrolled senses, persons too addicted to materialistic life make progress toward hellish conditions and repeatedly chew that which has already been chewed. Their inclinations toward Kṛṣṅa are never aroused, either by the instructions of others, by their own efforts, or by a combination of both.]

Only for this fault, gṛha-vratānām—"I shall be happy in this material world." In Delhi, we established that center. You have been there?

Brahmānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Ananda...

Brahmānanda: Ananda Niketan.

Prabhupāda: Full of foreign embassies. So nobody came.

Brahmānanda: They came the first night, and that was it.

Prabhupāda: Nobody came.

Brahmānanda: Neither were they very friendly.

Prabhupāda: They thought that "We are living so nicely, embassy and ambassador, and living in such a nice house, comfortably. What is this nonsense, God?" All these embassies and the ambassadors, they are prized post. It has no use.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: They're what, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Prized post only.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: Prized post

Prabhupāda: Governors, the embassies, this is... These are invented to satisfy the agitators, politician, because the opposite party will agitate.

Brahmānanda: So give them some house and some post.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Give them some. That's all. It has no use. They do not do anything. Simply hold that post and get nice house, nice salary, servants, honor, and sometimes they are called and make some speech. That's all. And whatever nonsense he may be, if he is governor, then everyone will respect him. That's all. And as soon as the same man, he is not governor, nobody goes to kick on his face. I have seen so many governors. When they retire, nobody... [aside:] Where is that cap? Nobody cares.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: Is this desire for material happiness the cause of material attachment?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṅa bhuliya jīva bhoga vāñchā kare [Prema-vivarta].

[When an individual soul forgets his eternal relationship with God and tries to lord it over the material nature or resources, that condition, that forgetful condition, is called māyā, or illusion.]

When they forget to serve Kṛṣṅa and wants to enjoy this material world... Don't you see that these Māyāvādī philosophers are trying for liberation, and still, they are expecting to become God? That is another desire. Daridra-nārāyaṅa. The high ambition, to become God or equal to God, that is going on, struggle for existence.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: What about these rascals like Sai Baba? They use Kṛṣṅa's philosophy, and then they twist it in such a way that it becomes Māyāvāda.

Prabhupāda: No, no. He's a cheater. People want to be cheated. They come to sādhu for some material benefit. Don't you see that people are so much anxious to touch the feet of a sādhu? What is the reason? Reason is that if he gets some favor of the sādhu, then "I shall be happy materially." That's all. They have no idea, becoming servant of Kṛṣṅa. Āśīrvāda [Hindi].

Brahmānanda: Āśīrvāda. Swami Deji[?] once told me he once wanted your āśīrvāda. I didn't know what the word meant. He was shocked. "You don't know what āśīrvāda is?"

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: What's that?

Brahmānanda: It was like I did not know anything because I did not know that. It means to take the benefit from the guru.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: But if he's a real guru, then the real benefit will be there.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: To be engaged in Kṛṣṅa's service.

Harikeśa: Do you want another cover, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: No. This is all right. [break] ...the male, that one.

Brahmānanda: The red one?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is also male. [break] ...for their family. Gṛha-vratānām. Wife, children, they are also enjoying. Viṣayaḥ khalu... This wife and children and material happiness he will get in any form of life. So if the human life is also the same thing, then where is the benefit? But they are proud that "The... They are loitering on the..., without any home. We have constructed this home. Therefore we are advanced." This is their philosophy. The business is the same. "That's all right. But we are improved." This is advancement. Business is the punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṅānām [SB 7.5.30], the same sex, same eating, the same sleeping, same defending, but in an improved way.

Even in the heavenly planet, wherever you go, the same thing, simply... Just like this country and Europe, the standard of living different, but the business is the same. And the... When they improve or so-call improve the standard of living, they think, "Now we are advanced." And what about your death? [aside:] Stop. The chicken is also dying; you are also dying. What is your improvement? That they cannot say. Real problem they cannot solve. Simply a little high standard of living, and they think this is advancement. And the Western civilization is influencing all other parts of the world in that way—"Improve the standard of living." There is no improvement, but it is māyā; they are thinking, "This is improvement."

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: Progress.

Prabhupāda: Progress, yes. The progress is that they have got motorcar, and they have progressed how to die quickly. This is the progress. At any moment he can die. As soon as he is on the car, seventy miles speed, then he is taking the risk of dying at any moment. This is the progress. Formerly people were going in bullock cart or horse carriage from one village to another. That was primitive. Now we can go hundred miles away from home for earning money and taking risk to die at any moment. That is progress. Is it not?

Brahmānanda: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: Formerly they were satisfied by tilling the ground, getting food grains. Now they have started factories. At the cost of thousands of men's labor, some director is getting money and enjoying life. That is progress. And these rascals, laborers, they are thinking that "These men are getting the profit, cream of this business. We are working. Why not take ourself?" That is Communism.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: There is one small coal mining town we did saṅkīrtana at, an Indian community. And they were thinking that "The coal mine is doing everything for us. They're giving us schools, they're giving us medicine, they're giving us... Without the coal mine, where would we be?"

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Brahmānanda: Here they think it's sugarcane. The sugarcane is everything.

Prabhupāda: Giving everything.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: Why can't people understand to depend on Kṛṣṅa?

Prabhupāda: There is māyā.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: Just like air that we breathe.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is māyā—no education. This Kṛṣṅa consciousness movement means we are giving intelligence; therefore they are understanding. But there is no such propaganda. There was no such propaganda.

Brahmānanda: One of those reporters yesterday was saying, "Well, there's so many philosophies from India. Why have you started this one?" But actually no other philosophy has given this message.

Prabhupāda: Therefore I said that "Why you are bringing 'India'? The whole world is in darkness." [to passerby:] Hare Kṛṣṅa. Good morning.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: There's the verse in the Bhāgavatam, Prabhupāda, yasyātmā suprasīdati [SB 1.1.11], that "By rendering devotional service to the Transcendental Lord, one becomes completely satisfied." So what happens, these people in material life, they come to the temples and they chant a little bit. But they find that the standard of pure devotional service is so high that they're not able to grasp it. They don't feel the complete satisfaction. They're still attached to the material world.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is compared with the jaundice disease. Jaundice disease, for jaundice, sugarcane is the medicine. But they taste sugarcane as bitter. Sugarcane... One who is suffering in jaundice will taste sugarcane as bitter. That is the test. So that is the medicine. So he has to take the sugarcane. And by taking, when he is cured he will find, "Oh, it is very sweet."

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: So then he has to recognize that there is some problem living in this material world.

Prabhupāda: No. He does not find any happiness on account of his too much materialistic mind.

Brahmānanda: That is the disease.

Prabhupāda: That is the disease. So it has to be cured by this bhakti-yoga. So in the bhakti-yoga, in the beginning, it will taste bitter. Therefore they do not come. But if they take to bhakti-yoga, then the material disease will be cured and they will find it is very sweet.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: Yes. So the more people try to enjoy materially, do they become more and more unhappy?

Prabhupāda: We are in the material world means everyone is diseased, mūḍha, māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ, duṣkṛtinaḥ [Bg 7.15].

[Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, lowest among mankind, whose knowledge is stolen by illusion, and who partake of the atheistic nature of demons, do not surrender unto Me.]

This is described. This is the material disease. I explained how they are committing sinful life: slaughterhouse, this liquor house and so many things, simply sinful. And they do not know they are going to suffer again in another body. He's going to be slaughtered next life: "Life for life." You are taking life, so many lives; you have to give so many times life. "Take birth and become killed. Take birth and become killed." There is no knowledge.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: Sometimes people ask, Prabhupāda, that if one falls down into lower species of life like plants or animals, how then do they come again to the human form of life?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is nature's way. Give them again chance to develop. From trees they become flies. That is the beginning of movement. Then from flies to birds, birds to beast, and beast to animal, er, human being. This is great chastisement. You cannot move even.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: Tree.

Prabhupāda: Suffer torrents of rain, cyclone, scorching heat, pinching cold. Stand up for hundreds and thousands of years. Then, when the punishment is finished, then he becomes moving. If there is scorching heat he can move to some shelter. But he cannot move. They do not study all this science, why there are so many varieties of life, of different grades, wherefrom they are coming.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: The living entity, then, in the tree is actually conscious of its condition of life.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: The living entity inside the tree is actually conscious of its condition of life.

Prabhupāda: Not advanced consciousness, but he is conscious. He feels. He feels.

Harikeśa: It shocked a lot of people when they made the test of bringing a scissor to a plant, and they put some electrodes on it and they found that the plant was reacting with fear.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That machine has been discovered by Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose. He discovered this wireless telegram, radio. But Marconi took from him, and British government helped him.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: The British again. [laughs]

Prabhupāda: Britishers were advertising outside India that "Indians are uncivilized. Therefore we are making them civilized. Therefore we should stay there. Don't object." Because United Nation, they were asking, "Why you are occupying India?" So they used to forward this argument, that "These people are uncivilized. We are making them civilized." [laughter] Now, how there should be Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose? Therefore they used to suppress always. Everything Indian wanted to do, they would suppress: big businesses, this mining... They would suppress.

This Morarji, Sumati Morarji, her father-in-law started that... He had to face so many impediments from the Britishers to start the shipping company. Formerly there was no shipping company, Indian. Now, before that, there was shipping..., not shipping company, but navigation was there from India to Rome, Greece, Turkey, there was regular business of spices and fine cloth. Later on, this large-scale shipping industry, that was done by the Europeans. So when Indian wanted to start, they would suppress. The Tata iron industry, he had to face so many difficulties. Formerly, even if you wanted to bring some iron frame, it would come from Sheffield.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: From where?

Cyavana: Sheffield.

Prabhupāda: Sheffield.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: Oh, England.

Prabhupāda: England. So everything Indian required, they would supply, and they would govern and they would exploit. Therefore they became so rich—simply by exploiting India. And Indian soldiers, they expanded empire—Africa, Burma. That's all, all Indian exploitation. Indian men, money and exploitation. As soon as they lost India, they lost whole empire.

Cyavana: Now they are also suffering.

Prabhupāda: Eh? That... That must be. They will be suffering more and more. They will be beggars. They have done so much sinful activities for expanding their empire. Now they will have to become beggars. And within two hundred years, everything finished. They started their exploitation from seventeenth, eighteenth century. And in the twentieth century, everything finished. The French people and the English people... This is also one of the example. Both the nations came here to exploit. That was the competition in... The French people and the English people, they would go for colonization, fight, and establi... America was also that; Canada, everywhere. But because they were their own men, they were given dominion status—almost free.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: Greedy. Very greedy.

Brahmānanda: At one time all of Africa was controlled by the European nations. Completely.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Mainly these French and...

Brahmānanda: French, British, Germans, Portuguese, Dutch, Spanish.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: In South Africa, the British also tried to take over South Africa. There was a war called the Boer War.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: So during World War I and World War II many of the South Africans, they actually sided with the Germans because they were against the English so much.

Prabhupāda: African means black Africans. No?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: No. South Africans, they were Europeans. The British started the first concentration camp. They took these "Afrikaners" as they call them, Europeans. They put them on an island called St. Helena. That was actually the first concentration camp, by the British.

Prabhupāda: This is going on. Still, even the opposite party, they are not disgusted—"This material life is not very peaceful." They are not disgusted.

Brahmānanda: Now they are thinking, "We'll be independent..."

Prabhupāda: Yes. That... They are trying to be independent. And India... Just like India has got independent, and now the position is "emergency." They do not think in this way, that "Independence or dependence, we are actually dependent under the laws of nature." That they do not think. They are thinking... The same example as I gave, that "This boil is here. Why not here? It is very painful," like that. They have no sense that so-called dependence or independence, he has to suffer. That he does not know. Mūḍha nābhijānāti.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: In the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṅa explains, vāsudevah sarvam iti [Bg 7.19],

[After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.]

So everything is explained there. We are preaching Kṛṣṅa consciousness not with emptythat He is everything and that He is everywhere.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: So this verse, mūḍho 'ya nābhijānāti, that the mūḍhas, they can't perceive Kṛṣṅa. So actually it's simply that we're covered, isn't it? But Kṛṣṅa is always there.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṅa is always there, but yogamāyā-samāvṛtaḥ: he does not know Kṛṣṅa on account of being covered by the curtain of yogamāyā. Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yogamāyā-samāvṛtaḥ [Bg 7.25].

[I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent. For them I am covered by My eternal creative potency [yoga-māyā]; and so the deluded world knows Me not, who am unborn and infallible.]

But we can make them all happy by Kṛṣṅa consciousness if they follow our instruction, even in this material world. Pūrṅaṁ sukhāyate. Full happiness we can give if they follow our principle.

Cyavana: But they have so many doubts.

Prabhupāda: What is the doubt? Doubt means they cannot drink, they cannot continue slaughterhouse, they cannot continue brothels. That's all. This is their doubt, that "How these things will be maintained? This is our life." That is doubt, and that is the difficulty. As soon as we say, "No this," oh, they are in danger. Even Marquis of Zetland, "Oh, it is impossible to give up. This is our life." There is the difficulty. Otherwise, there is no difficulty.

They cannot think of, especially the Westerners, that without these things one can live. So many, our disciples, left. Rāyarāma left: "Oh, Swāmījī is denying the preliminary necessities of life." This is the preliminary necessities of life: illicit sex, meat-eating, drinking, gambling. They cannot think that a man can live without these things. Therefore people are wonderful, that "How he is turning these Europeans, Americans to this standard?" That is their wonder. Nobody can think of, that these things can be given up and one can avoid it. It is dream.

Your government, American government, is also surprised, that "We have spent so much money for stopping this LSD, and this man, by saying his disciples, they are giving up." Judah has also mentioned that. That is their surprise—"How these things can be given up? It is impossible."

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: You once said in Geneva that no one has died by giving up smoking.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Actually that is the fact. You have given up these four bad things, and what is your wrong, harm? Rather, you have become bright-faced. But they will not give it up. They think, "It is impossible."

Brahmānanda: They say we have just undergone some religious conversion and become fanatical, and therefore we have given up.

Prabhupāda: No, why don't you become fanatical? [laughter]

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: Although it says in the Bible even that one should praise the Lord's name with cymbals and drums...

Prabhupāda: They have no concern with Bible and God and everything. They are simply after sense gratification. What is the use of quoting about Bible? They don't care for Bible. The Europeans, Americans, they have rejected, thrown away, kicked out Bible because unscientific. Actually they do not accept. Although they call themselves Christian, they do not accept anything of Bible. That is... Bible is finished. There is no meaning of Bible. Simply for their sectarian prestige, they say Bible. But actually they have nothing to do with Bible. What do you think?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: Yes, it's true.

Prabhupāda: They do not go to the church, but they come to us for arguing with Bible. Just see. What is the meaning? Their churches have closed, nobody goes, and they come to argue with us with Bible. That means "The Devil cites scripture." They are devils, and they are quoting from Bible.

Devotee (2): So many people who come to our program, they are Christians. There may be 75% who come. They are all Christians.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. We don't discriminate whether he is Christian. We take everyone as human being, welcome. So what do they say? They also quote Bible?

Devotee (2): They say that their priests tell them, "You just listen to me and forget about the Bible."

Prabhupāda: And who are you? Then I can say also, "You hear me. Forget about Bible." Anyone can say. Why the priest? Wherefrom the priest has come? Has he dropped from the sky? [laughter] That's it. Everyone can say, "My dear priest, you hear me. Don't talk of yourself. You hear me." Everyone can say. Then? How things will be adjusted? The priest is also a man; I am also man. If he can say like that, I can say like that. Then who will make adjustment? Who is correct? Hmm? How it will be adjusted? If everyone will propose something, and who will say, "Now, out of so many proposals, this is correct." That means chaotic condition. If everyone says, "What I say, you hear," then who will hear? Everyone will say only. Who will hear? That is going on actually. And rascal Vivekananda says, "Everyone's opinion is good."

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: Yatha mat tatha path.

Prabhupāda: Yatha mat tatha path. This is going on. Everyone will say something, and it is all right. However nonsense it may be, it is all right. Even Gandhi followed that philosophy. Therefore he invented one..., another philosophy, nonviolence, which is impossible. When Hindus approached him, that "You have got so much influence over the Muhammadans, so why not stop cow killing?" he said, "It is their religious principle. How can I interfere?" Just see.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya [Bg 18.44].

[Farming, cow protection and business are the qualities of work for the vaiśyas, and for the śūdras there is labor and service to others.]

Kṛṣṅa orders in Bhagavad-gītā, go-rakṣya.

Prabhupāda: And he is considered to be a great scholar in Bhagavad-gītā, and when cow protection was requested, he said that "How can I do it? It is their religious principle." And he is a great big scholar in Bhagavad-gītā. All nonsense going on. Whole world is full of nonsense, mūḍhas, beginning from Gandhi to any rascal, all of them, rascals. Perhaps it is the first time we are detecting, "Here are all rascals." It is first time. Then we are enemy of everyone. We call everyone rascal—Gandhi rascal, Vivekananda rascal, Aurobindo rascal. So actually they are, but people are thinking, "These people say all big, big men rascals? Therefore they are rascals."

Cyavana: The average man doesn't have the intelligence to discriminate between an intelligent man and a fool. He will listen to anyone.

Prabhupāda: No, we have got this from the standard test tube, Kṛṣṅa. Anyone who is not Kṛṣṅa conscious, he is duṣkṛtina, mūḍha. That's all. We have no difficulty. Just like that urine test? We have got... One who has got that testing paper—red, yellow and so on, so on. So we have got this testing paper, Bhagavad-gītā. [break]

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: ...Prabhupāda, that Lord Caitanya's weapons were His associates. Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu's weapons were His associates.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Sāṅgopāngāstra-pārṣadam [SB 11.5.32].

[In the Age of Kali, intelligent persons perform congregational chanting to worship the incarnation of Godhead who constantly sings the names of Kṛṣṅa. Although His complexion is not blackish, He is Kṛṣṅa Himself. He is accompanied by His associates, servants, weapons and confidential companions.]

Therefore Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura said, gaurāṅgera saṅgi-gaṅe, nitya-siddha kori māne: "All the associates of Lord Caitanya, they are ever-liberated." Nitya-siddha kori māne. "Anyone accepts the assistants of Lord Caitanya as ever-liberated—he also becomes liberated. Simply by accepting the associates of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, who is helping Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, simply by accepting this, the man who is accepting, he becomes liberated." Se jāy brajendra-nanda pāś. Gaurāṅgera saṅgi-gaṅe, nitya-siddha kori māne, se jāy brajendra-nanda pāś.

Cyavana: This is the way to go up.

Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...this is a fact, that our Kṛṣṅa consciousness is the topmost yoga, and preach it. This is a fact. Except we, Kṛṣṅa conscious, nobody knows anything—all mūḍhas. Any association, any religion—all mūḍhas. But you must prove yourself. Otherwise it will be bigotry. If you simply say that "We are only first class," without any knowledge... You have to defend yourself. There will be so many opposing elements. Then you become first class. Your position is first class, but you have to maintain it. Otherwise, they will say "religious fanatics." Any opposition party, you have to meet. That is required.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: Would you like to sit for some time here, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: No. [break]

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: [devotees have been teasing Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa in background regarding his suggestion] He said, "Don't bring milk when water is required." I was just asking, you know.

Harikeśa: Don't bring milk when water is required. You have given the example.

Prabhupāda: Don't bring milk?

Devotees: When water is required.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Cyavana: But he was thinking that it would be very nice to sit there with Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: No, no. No, I wasn't. I was thinking of Prabhupāda's satisfaction. You're thinking what I'm thinking...

Prabhupāda: You are right. He was right. That is service. Before wanting, that is... That is all right. "Now let the master refuse it." But service is: before he asks, the thing should be offered. That is service. After asking, offering something, that is second-class service. First-class service, before he wants, "Here is the thing, ready." That is first-class service. Now it is his liking. He may not like that. He may ask something else. But the service must be offered. And your example, milk and water, is not applicable here. I did not ask him either milk or water. [laughter] So your example is futile.

Cyavana: Perfect.

Prabhupāda: So don't be discouraged.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: No, Prabhupāda. I'll never leave your lotus feet. [pause] They asked you about other movements yesterday at the press conference...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: ...this movement and that movement. You said, "This is Kṛṣṅa's movement." So this should be our line of argument, because especially amongst the Indian community, when they question us about this svāmī and that svāmī...

Prabhupāda: They replied that in everything there is light. And yes, the light of, what is called, glowworm and the light of sun is not the same. Everything is light; that doesn't... We haven't got to accept so-called lights. Even there is light, when there is sunlight, why you should aspire after glow of light? [people chanting in background] Who is chanting Hare Kṛṣṅa?

Cyavana: Everyone is saying Hare Kṛṣṅa.

Prabhupāda: That's nice. [shouts] Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma. [laughter; passersby cheer]

Devotee (2): So all those sinful activities of these people have been eradicated now by saying Hare Rāma?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Immediately. That is the special advantage of this age. Kirtanād eva kṛṣṅasya mukta-saṅgaḥ [SB 12.3.51].

[My dear King, although Kali-yuga is an ocean of faults, there is still one good quality about this age: Simply by chanting the Hare Kṛṣṅa mahā-mantra, one can become free from material bondage and be promoted to the transcendental kingdom.]

Immediately becomes free, mukta-saṅga. Without becoming mukta-saṅga, they cannot chant even. Why others are not chanting, they are chanting?

Devotee (2): But the same people will make more sinful activities?

Prabhupāda: If he does, that is another thing. Otherwise, for the time being, he is freed from all the reaction of sinful, immediately. Sadyaḥ savanāya kalpate. Sadya, immediately. Immediately he becomes brāhmaṅa.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: Is pious activity on the material platform?

Prabhupāda: No, no. It is transcendental, above pious activity. By accumulation of pious activities one may be elevated to the transcendental position. Kṛta-puṅya-puñjāḥ [SB 10.12.11].

[All the boys would be differently engaged. Some boys blew their flutes, and others blew bugles made of horn. Some imitated the buzzing of the bumblebees, and others imitated the voice of the cuckoo. Some boys imitated flying birds by running after the birds' shadows on the ground, some imitated the beautiful movements and attractive postures of the swans, some sat down with the ducks, sitting silently, and others imitated the dancing of the peacocks.

Some boys attracted young monkeys in the trees, some jumped into the trees, imitating the monkeys, some made faces as the monkeys were accustomed to do, and others jumped from one branch to another. Some boys went to the waterfalls and crossed over the river, jumping with the frogs, and when they saw their own reflections on the water they would laugh. They would also condemn the sounds of their own echoes.

In this way, all the cowherd boys used to play with Kṛṣṅa, who is the source of the Brahman effulgence for jñānīs desiring to merge into that effulgence, who is the Supreme Personality of Godhead for devotees who have accepted eternal servitorship, and who for ordinary persons is but another ordinary child. The cowherd boys, having accumulated the results of pious activities for many lives, were able to associate in this way with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. How can one explain their great fortune?]

Puṅya means pious activities. After doing for many, many years simply pious activities one may be elevated to the transcendental platform. So pious activities cannot be compared with transcendental activities. But it may help in the long run. Therefore transcendental activities does not depend on pious activity. It is not dependent. Then it will take long, long years. But automatically he becomes pious..., achieves the result of pious activities. [break]

Cyavana: ...the standard of morality, Arjuna's activity of killing was immoral.

Prabhupāda: Morality, immorality, this is all creation of mind. Real purpose of life: to serve the order of Kṛṣṅa. That is real morality.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: I think that we must all be kṛpa-siddhi, because by your mercy you have lifted us out of hellish conditions of life.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṅa's mercy. You have accepted Kṛṣṅa's mercy. This is the... [break] This empirical policy was very good, provided it would have been done for Kṛṣṅa. Then they could unite the whole world.

Brahmānanda: They had very good managing talent.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. But the whole thing was planned for their own sense gratification.

Brahmānanda: Exploitation.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: If we ever had any kind of power like that and tried to do something like that, they would accuse that this is like the Crusades.

Prabhupāda: Now, Crusades, even... If they could expand the ideas of Christian, love of Godhead, that was nice. But that was not the purpose. It is exploitation.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: Even by force?

Prabhupāda: Yes. By force if you give some good medicine, that is good for him. In my childhood I would not take medicine. Exactly like this, now also. [laughter] So I was given medicine by force in the spoon. Two men will catch me, and my mother take me on the lap and then force, and I shall take. I never agreed to take any medicine.

Harikeśa: Should we do that now, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Then you'll kill me.

Harikeśa: You would not go to school either.

Prabhupāda: I don't like... Yes.

Harikeśa: You were telling us last year, you wanted to play mṛdaṅga.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: The bus is coming. [break]

Prabhupāda: ...disagreement between my father and mother. My father would give me all independence, and mother was going that "You are spoiling the child by giving too much independence."

Harikeśa: Just see.

Prahupada: That is going on. Just like Mother Yaśodā. She would chastise Kṛṣṅa. But you will never find Nanda Mahārāja is ever chastising. Rather, when Kṛṣṅa was chastised, Nanda Mahārāja would come back and take Him on the lap: "All right, I shall punish Your mother," and call him [her], chastise. And then Kṛṣṅa will stop his mouth: "No, no. Don't do this." It is natural that when the child is in the lower stage, minor stage, the mother takes more care. That is natural. [break] Such a big planet, sun, six month rotating on the northern side of the equator, six month on the southern side. It is never changed. Why?

Brahmānanda: It's an accident. [laughs]

Prabhupāda: Accident?

Cyavana: The sun doesn't change?

Prabhupāda: No, the uttarāyana. Now it is passing on the northern...

Brahmānanda: Now it's on the southern?

Prabhupāda: Southern side, dakṣiṅāyana, yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: The scientists say that the earth is actually tilting back and forth like this, that the sun is not...

Prabhupāda: Why it is tilting, rascal? Stop it.

Cyavana: No. Every time is perfect.

Prabhupāda: That is my question. That is answered in Brahma... Yasyājñayā, by the order of Govinda it is being done.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: The seasons are changing.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yasyājñayā bhramati sambhṛta-kāla-cakraḥ [Bs 5.52].

[The sun who is the king of all the planets, full of infinite effulgence, the image of the good soul, is as the eye of this world. I adore the primeval Lord Govinda in pursuance of whose order the sun performs his journey mounting the wheel of time.]

The orbit fixed up to the sun by the order of Govinda, that is being followed by him.

Devotee (2): Does the heat of the sun increase or decrease through the ages?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is in the hand of Kṛṣṅa.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: But they are thinking He is just a historical figure.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: They're thinking that Kṛṣṅa is simply a historical figure.

Prabhupāda: Therefore they're rascals. Why do you say like that?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ [Bg 9.11].

[Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature and My supreme dominion over all that be.]

Brahmānanda: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. [end]