Morning Walk

Prabhupāda: ...strength of śāstra we are challenging that "You have never gone to the moon planet." Who can do so? The whole world is accepting they have gone to moon planet, and we are challenging, "You have never gone to moon."

[aside:] Hare Kṛṣṅa. Thank you very much.

Gopāla Kṛṣṅa: Calcutta had called me up this morning. They are expecting about two lakhs' people in Māyāpur today and tomorrow. There's a big festival, and Jayapatāka Mahārāja spoke to me also. He's going to come here next Wednesday.

Prabhupāda: Two lakhs' people?

Gopāla Kṛṣṅa: During the next three-, four-day festival...

Prabhupāda: What is that festival?

Gopāla Kṛṣṅa: It's... It happens every year at this time.

Prabhupāda: What is this time? [break]

Gopāla Kṛṣṅa: Bengali Gītār Gān is ready and Jayapatāka Swami is taking delivery of it in the morning. [break]

Prabhupāda: Copies. [break] They could not conclude when the battle of Kurukṣetra was fought.

Gopāla Kṛṣṅa: They are speculating, though. There is one school which says it wasn't fought in Kurukṣetra.

Prabhupāda: As soon as there will be one school and other school, that means all of them are rascals. Just like the sun rises from this side. There cannot be two schools. If somebody says, "No, no. Sun rises from this side," if that is school, he's a fool. Sun rises from the eastern side. That's all. That is knowledge. If somebody says, "No, sometimes in the western side, sometimes in the northern side," is that any value? So as soon as there will be many schools, that means the conclusion is not like that.

Yaśomatīnandana: Someone was telling me, and I was telling that if somebody is not following the particular characteristic of a saintly person mentioned in the śastra, they cannot be accepted as a sādhu. So he was trying to prove that some sādhus, so-called, who eat meat, and who are drinking, they were actually great paramahaṁsas.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā?

Yaśomatīnandana: And then I... He said that because in the previous ages there is mention of... In the śāstras there is mention that there were many ṛṣis and munis who were eating meat.

Prabhupāda: He knows them. He is such a rascal that he knows only, and nobody knows. That is the verdict of this Ramakrishna Mission.

Yaśomatīnandana: They say that they would... These ṛṣis would kill one elephant or something like that, and they would live on him for whole year.

Prabhupāda: Where is that information? Where he got this information? You did not challenge?

Yaśomatīnandana: Well, I said that that ṛṣi and muni must be just like the ṛṣis and munis you are talking about now.

Prabhupāda: We don't find any such thing. In this way they have ruined Indian culture by misquoting, by misleading.

Yaśomatīnandana: And he admitted that Vivekānanda smoked gañja and he was eating meat.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yaśomatīnandana: But for such a soul, he said, there is no conditioning like that. Then, when you quote any verse from Bhagavad-gītā contrary to such statement, immediately he would say, "Well, Bhagavad-gītā is not the only scripture." [break]

Prabhupāda: ...very nicely, without any fail. Dharmaḥ svanuṣṭhitaḥ puṁsām [SB 1.2.8].

[The occupational activities a man performs according to his own position are only so much useless labor if they do not provoke attraction for the message of the Personality of Godhead.]

But if he does not become Kṛṣṅa conscious, then where is the profit? It is simply waste of time and energy, śrama eva hi kevalam. Anything, whatever it may be, it doesn't matter. Ye kṛṣṅa tattva vetta... If he knows the science of Kṛṣṅa, then he is guru. Ye kṛṣṅa tattva vetta sei guru haya [Cc Madhya 8.128].

[Whether one is a brāhmaṅa, a sannyāsī or a śūdra—regardless of what he is—he can become a spiritual master if he knows the science of Kṛṣṅa.]

[Hindi] [break]

Yaśomatīnandana: ...people, they are nice pious people, and they have accepted some of these gymnastic people as their guru. So they say, "Oh, our gurujī is here. We have to go see our gurujī," this, that. So how should we treat to them, or how should we preach to them?

Prabhupāda: That you cannot do immediately unless he understands your philosophy. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate [Bg 2.59].

[The embodied soul may be restricted from sense enjoyment, though the taste for sense objects remains. But, ceasing such engagements by experiencing a higher taste, he is fixed in consciousness.]

Unless they understand that this philosophy is better than that, how he can give it up?

Yaśomatīnandana: Sometimes they even say that "You have your guru and I have my guru. It's all the same thing."

Prabhupāda: Yes, and a thief has also a guru. Then that guru is also the same thing. [Hindi conversation] Here guru means tasmād gurum prapadyeta jijñāsur śreya uttaman [SB 11.3.21].

[Therefore any person who seriously desires real happiness must seek a bona fide spiritual master and take shelter of him by initiation. The qualification of the bona fide guru is that he has realized the conclusions of the scriptures by deliberation and is able to convince others of these conclusions. Such great personalities, who have taken shelter of the Supreme Godhead, leaving aside all material considerations, should be understood to be bona fide spiritual masters.]

[Hindi] Nāpnuvanti mahātmānam saṁsiddhiṁ paramaṁ gataḥ.

Yaśomatīnandana: Isn't there some conditioning between the guru and śiśya, that "The guru should be like this and a śiśya should be like this"?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yaśomatīnandana: Not that anybody can say, "I am śiśya," and not anybody can say, "I am guru."

Prabhupāda: Saṁsara-dāvā. You are singing daily. Saṁsara-dāvānala-līḍha-loka-trāṅāya kāruṅya-ghanāghanatvam. One who can deliver from this entanglement of material, miserable condition of life, he is guru. That is the first definition of guru. Saṁsara-dāvānala-līḍha-loka-trāṅāya kāruṅya-ghanāghanatvam, prāptasya kalyāṅa—one who has obtained this qualification—vande guroḥ śrī caraṅāra..., he is guru.

Yaśomatīnandana: 'Cause nowadays...

Prabhupāda: Nowadays... Nowadays let them talk all nonsense. But this is the definition of guru. "Nowadays the sun is rising on the western side." If somebody says like that, who is going to accept it? "Nowadays." There is no question of "nowadays" and "formerly." The truth is truth always. Hare Kṛṣṅa. That is Absolute Truth.

[aside:] Jaya.

Yaśomatīnandana: So many yajñas and shibirs and everything going on, everywhere you see. It's so hard...

Prabhupāda: Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtanaiḥ prayair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ [SB 11.5.32].

[In the Age of Kali, intelligent persons perform congregational chanting to worship the incarnation of Godhead who constantly sings the names of Kṛṣṅa. Although His complexion is not blackish, He is Kṛṣṅa Himself. He is accompanied by His associates, servants, weapons and confidential companions.]

Those who are very intelligent, those whose brain clear, they, yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtanaiḥ prayair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ.

ye yad dhyāyato viṣṅuṁ tretāyāṁ yajato makhaiḥ dvāpare paricaryāyāṁ kalau tad dhari-kīrtanāt [SB 12.3.52]

[Whatever result was obtained in Satya-yuga by meditating on Viṣṅu, in Tretā-yuga by performing sacrifices, and in Dvāpara-yuga by serving the Lord's lotus feet can be obtained in Kali-yuga simply by chanting the Hare Kṛṣṅa mahā-mantra.]

What yajñas they will perform? Not possible. Where is the yajñic brāhmaṅa?

[break] "Don't talk. I am very busy." [laughter]

[break] ...greatest contribution?

Brahmānanda: "The greatest contribution of the Hare Kṛṣṅa movement is its authorized translations of the Vedic literature." Oh, "The greatest contribution to scholars." No. "The greatest contribution of the Hare Kṛṣṅa movement is that it is providing to scholars authorized translations of these Vedic literatures."

Prabhupāda: That is the remark of a very big professor.

Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, how do we support our challenge that they have not gone to the moon?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Devotee (3): How do we support our challenge to the scientists that they have not actually gone to the moon?

Prabhupāda: First proof is that they say that there is no life. That is a foolishness. There is life. Because we find everywhere life; why not in the moon planet? And there are many others. The first challenge is this.

Devotee (3): They say that they have not seen the life, though.

Prabhupāda: But what you can see, rascal? Therefore we say you are rascals. Why do you believe your eyes? You cannot see so many things. We don't find any living entity in the ocean. Does it mean there is no living entity? So what is the value of your seeing? That is the defect. They believe in too much their eyes. Although eyes are... Every sense is imperfect. You can see here: "Oh, we don't find anything. It is all zero." Does it mean the sky is zero? There are millions of planets and millions of living entities. So that is their rascaldom. They think that they are perfect. Whatever they see, that is perfect. That is their mistake. If I say, "No, there is no life. I cannot see," is that very good statement? And in the..., externally you don't find any living entity, but is it void of living entities?

Then why shall I assert that "There is no living... I cannot see"? Is that very good proposal? Therefore they are rascals. There cannot be any place within this universe which is without life. There cannot be. We see there is life even within sand. How you can say there is no life? "Because I cannot see." What is this argument? What you are? You are a rascal. Because you cannot see, therefore we have to accept? First of all we say you are a rascal. And if he says that "I cannot see," is it to be accepted? And the example is there. "I cannot see any life. It is simply water." But there are millions and trillions of life, big, big fish. Where is your perfection of seeing?

Devotee (3): Prabhupāda? Why are the big authorities, like the government people...?

Prabhupāda: Nobody is authority. That is our first assertion. Nobody is authority. Therefore we have placed "Kṛṣṅa consciousness." Kṛṣṅa is only authority. All rascals. That is our first assertion—[aside:] Good morning—that except Kṛṣṅa there is no authority. And one who follows Kṛṣṅa, he is authority.

Devotee (3): Why are the so-called scientists trying to make the common people believe that...

Prabhupāda: Because they are so-called scientists. You have already explained. Why you are asking? [laughter] You have already explained, "so-called scientists." That's all. They are not scientists; they are so-called scientists.

Devotee (3): Why do they want to fool the people?

Prabhupāda: Because you are fool. Because you are fool, therefore you become befooled. We do not become befooled by their words. You are fool; you will be befooled. If you want to remain fool, then you will be befooled. And if you become intelligent, then you will not be befooled. They can befool when there are many fools. If there is no fool they cannot befool. Do you follow this?

Devotee (3): Yes.

Prabhupāda: Jaya.

Devotee (3): The scientists, they are also fools.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Devotee (3): The scientists are also fools.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Mūḍha. That is our definition in the Bhagavad-gītā. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg 7.15].

[Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, lowest among mankind, whose knowledge is stolen by illusion, and who partake of the atheistic nature of demons, do not surrender unto Me.]

So much educated? Māyayāpahṛta-jñānā āsuraṁ-bhāvam āśritāḥ. Their knowledge has no value. The māyā has taken away everything.

Indian man (4): [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: Māyayāpahṛta jñānā.

[aside:] Hare Kṛṣṅa.

Indian man (4): Honor...

Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Unless one understands Kṛṣṅa... Vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ [Bg 15.15].

[I am seated in everyone's heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness. By all the Vedas am I to be known; indeed I am the compiler of Vedānta, and I am the knower of the Vedas.]

Veda means knowledge. So all kinds of knowledge, they are aiming at the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So if one does not understand what is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then māyayāpahṛta-jñānā—he has no knowledge. Knowledge means ultimately he must know what is God. That is knowledge. Ye kṛṣṅa tattva vetta sei guru haya. Anyone who knows Kṛṣṅa, he becomes guru. Otherwise not. The first test is you may be scientist, philosopher, educationist, whatever you may be, but ask him, "Do you know Kṛṣṅa?" If he says, "No," then he is a fool. That's all. This is the test. [chuckles] Hare Kṛṣṅa. So Ambarīṣa Mahārāja, do you agree?

Ambarīṣa: Yes. It's a good test.

Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Goldsmith, they take a stone, black stone. Do you know? And they rub the gold on the stone, and they can immediately say whether it is gold or not. So our that stone is Kṛṣṅa. If anyone knows Kṛṣṅa, then it is gold. [laughter]

Devotees: Haribol! Jaya Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Otherwise it is bogus. [laughter]

Indian man (5): It is very good.

Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Formerly these goldsmith boys, their father simply taught how to test gold. And as soon as he learns, he opens a shop and he earns thousands and thousands of rupees. No education. Simply by...

Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. Even today the jewelers' sons, they are expert in knowing diamonds and they make millions of rupees.

Indian man (6): [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: [Hindi] This is Indian old fashion. They simply know how to test jewels and gold. That's all. One knowledge makes him rich.

vyavasāyātmikā buddhir ekeha kuru-nandana bahu-śākhā hy anantāś ca buddhayo 'vyavasāyinām [Bg 2.41]

Avyavasāyinām bahu-śākha. And vyavasāyayinām—one. From practical point of view, from business point of view also, I started this Kṛṣṅa conscious business with forty rupees. Now we have forty crores. Who has got such business success? [laughter] Bring anyone. Within ten years. And here is Ambarīṣa Mahārāja. He is ready to give us any money, any amount of money. Ambarīṣa Mahārāja, yes. Whole Ford Company. [laughter] So who has got this business? [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṅa. Jaya. I think there is no such history in the world, to begin business with forty rupees, and within ten years it becomes forty crores. One cannot imagine even.

Yaśomatīnandana: Yes.

Prabhupāda: [Hindi conversation] "You are servant, and wherefrom you will get twelve lakhs of rupees within three years? You cannot get it." [Hindi] Busy. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṅa. Jaya. [break] Learn from dog one lesson: they are very faithful to the master. Very faithful. [break] ...do not see anything now in the sky. Does it mean it is vacant? So what is the value of your seeing?

Brahmānanda: There's a philosophy that says that if a tree falls down in a forest and I am not there to see it, then it hasn't happened.

Prabhupāda: There is philosophy?

Brahmānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So what is that logic? Hmm?

Gopāla Kṛṣṅa: Want to see everything with their own eyes.

Girirāja: They think the existence of the tree is dependent on their sense perception.

Prabhupāda: Gladstone or what..., that poet? "Full many flowers' blush unseen." Therefore there is no flower? "Full many flowers' blush unseen." This is foolish philosophy. Now this plane is going. After half an hour it will not be seen. Does it mean it is finished? [laughter] There is no more?

Indian man (7): But also in the sky we can see something. I can see many things. I can see something. It is not vacant space. Only thing, I don't know what it is.

Prabhupāda: Then you cannot see the stars. Can you see the stars now?

Indian man (7): No.

Prabhupāda: Then can you say there is no star? Then? That means what you cannot see, that is not final. Therefore our Vedic instruction is śāstra cakṣusāt: You should see through the śastra, not your these useless eyes. These are useless. Tad-vijñānārtham sa gurum evābhigacchet [Muṅḍaka Upaniṣad 1.2.12].

[To understand these things properly, one must humbly approach, with firewood in hand, a spiritual master who is learned in the Vedas and firmly devoted to the Absolute Truth.]

In order to know perfectly, one should go to the guru. And Bhagavad-gītā has said,

tad viddhi praṅipātena paripraśnena sevayā upadekṣyanti tad jñānaṁ jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ [Bg 4.34]

[Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth.]

"One who has seen, go there and learn it." That is the injunction. Don't try to see yourself. That is foolishness. This very word is used, tattva-darśinaḥ, "one who has seen." You have to go there and see through his eyes, through his instructions. That is real seeing.

Devotee (5): They're paying you respects, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Hmm? Oh.

[aside:] Hare Kṛṣṅa. Jaya.

Yaśomatīnandana: No one has any chance against your philosophy. No one has any chance. Many times people start arguing. Within five or ten minutes they are completely calmed down. And after fifteen minutes, "Because we started arguing, we have learned so much from you."

Prabhupāda: That is sane man.

Indian man (8): [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: [Hindi] [break]

Dr. Patel: ...why I come so early and all that thing. Shall I say, sir?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Dr. Patel:

prasaṅgam ajaraṁ pāśam ātmanaḥ kavayo viduḥ sa eva sādhuṣu kṛtaḥ mokṣa-dvāram apāvṛtam [SB 3.25.20]

That is why I come so early. You may explain them, sir.

Prabhupāda: No, you explain.

Dr. Patel: [laughs] It is said in Śrīmad-Bhāgavata that your mind, atmanaḥ prasaṅga, the saṅga. Saṅga means attachment.

Prabhupāda: Prasaṅgam.

Dr. Patel: Prasaṅga and saṅga, the same.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Prakṛṣṭa-rupena saṅga. Very tight.

Dr. Patel: Saṅga. Very tight saṅga, very tight attachment of mind is there always.

Prabhupāda: Not mind; of the soul.

Dr. Patel: Atmanaḥ. Because mind and soul, both are... There is always there, ajara, undying. "But if that attachment is made to a sādhu, that becomes mokṣa-dvāram apāvṛtam, that becomes opening of the door of mokṣa." So I come here to sādhuṣu kṛtaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Similarly, another śloka is made by Rūpa Gosvāmī. He is praying to Kṛṣṅa that "As a young man has got attachment for young woman and young woman has got attachment for the young man, similar attachment, when I'll have upon You?" This is very natural to young men and young women, attachment. The whole world is going on on this, what is called, sex attachment. Puṁsam striya mithuni-bhavam etad. This material world means they are combined together on the platform of sex. Yan maithunadi-gṛhamedhi-sukham hi tuccham [SB 7.9.45].

[Sex life is compared to the rubbing of two hands to relieve an itch. Gṛhamedhīs, so-called gṛhasthas who have no spiritual knowledge, think that this itching is the greatest platform of happiness, although actually it is a source of distress. The kṛpaṅas, the fools who are just the opposite of brāhmaṅas, are not satisfied by repeated sensuous enjoyment. Those who are dhīra, however, who are sober and who tolerate this itching, are not subjected to the sufferings of fools and rascals.]

So that is a very great attachment. So Rūpa Gosvāmī is praying, "When I will have the same attachment for You?" Yuvatīnāṁ yathā yunoḥ. [break]

Dr. Patel: ...have heard something else in Gujarati. Indriya nila... [Gujarati] "The work that you do for satisfaction of the indriyas, [Gujarati]..." That is the bhakti, when you do same action for [Gujarati] God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the difference between kāma and prema. Kāma means worldly attachment, and prema means attachment for God. That's all. In Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is said, atmendriya-tṛpti-vañcha tara nāma kāma: "When one desires his own sense gratification, that is called kāma." And kṛṣṅendriya-tṛpti-vañcha dhare prema nāma.

Dr. Patel: That is prema.

Prabhupāda: That is prema. "When one wants to satisfy Kṛṣṅa's senses, that is prema."

Dr. Patel: That is called lust and love.

Prabhupāda: This is the difference between lust and love. Just like gopī. It looks like kāma, but it is prema.

Dr. Patel: They say, sir, that gopīs really, they are kāma-toṣa, and when they touched the sacred feet of Kṛṣṅa their whole thing was turned into the sacred prema.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Because, you see, every woman loves the husband, but they don't become gopīs because the husband hasn't got that qualities like Kṛṣṅa. Kṛṣṅa was above three guṅas, so they became tri-guṅātita, all gopīs. Actually they were motivated by kāma, but when they actually had the source of all prema, touched the feet of Kṛṣṅa, they converted themselves beyond all the three guṅas. Because the God is not within the māyā, He is above it, so anything which goes there comes above it. [break]

Prabhupāda: ...understanding Kṛṣṅa's position, if one... Kṛṣṅa...

Dr. Patel: They are talking nonsense about rāsa-līlā.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: They are so silly, they don't understand, because they include their own self there. They think that Kṛṣṅa was just like them, and then they certify[?] themselves with gopīs, what they would do with gopīs.

Prabhupāda: Paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ, paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ [Bg 9.11].

[Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature and My supreme dominion over all that be.]

Param [Hindi]. Otherwise it is...

Dr. Patel: It is said that gopīs were not foolish. They were very intelligent girls, extremely, because they chose what was to be chosen. [break]

Prabhupāda: Eternal companion of Kṛṣṅa. Ananda-cinmaya-rasa pratibhāvitābhis tābhir ya eva nija-rūpatayā kalābhiḥ [Bs 5.37].

[I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, residing in His own realm, Goloka, with Rādhā, resembling His own spiritual figure, the embodiment of the ecstatic potency possessed of the sixty-four artistic activities, in the company of Her confidantes [sakhīs], embodiments of the extensions of Her bodily form, permeated and vitalized by His ever-blissful spiritual rasa.]

Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāva. The gopīs are expansion of Kṛṣṅa's ananda-cinmāyā-rasa pleasure potency. Rūpa Gosvāmī, tyaktvā tūrṅam aśeṣa-maṅḍala-pati-śreṅīṁ sadā tucchavat [Śrī Śrī Ṣaḍ Gosvāmy Aṣṭaka 4].

[I offer my respectful obeisances unto the six Gosvāmīs, namely Śrī Rūpa Gosvāmī, Śrī Sanātana Gosvāmī, Śrī Raghunātha Bhaṭṭa Gosvāmī, Śrī Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī, Śrī Jīva Gosvāmī, and Śrī Gopāla Bhaṭṭa Gosvāmī, who kicked off all association of aristocracy as insignificant. In order to deliver the poor conditioned souls, they accepted loincloths, treating themselves as mendicants, but they are always merged in the ecstatic ocean of the gopīs' love for Kṛṣṅa and bathe always and repeatedly in the waves of that ocean.]

[Hindi] Tucchavat. But the engagement was gopī-bhāva-rasāmṛtābdhi-laharī. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate [Bg 2.59].

[The embodied soul may be restricted from sense enjoyment, though the taste for sense objects remains. But, ceasing such engagements by experiencing a higher taste, he is fixed in consciousness.]

Dr. Patel: Yes, that is right, sir. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. Because the little part of it is remaining there, and that never goes away from anyone with God.

Prabhupāda: Paraṁ dṛṣṭi, sādhu... [Hindi]

Dr. Patel: Hmm. Because they are the agents of param.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Mokṣa-dvāra apāvṛtam.

Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Bhakti without jñāna can be practiced. So when there is bhakti, automatically there is jñāna.

vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti-yogaḥ-prayojitaḥ janayaty āśu vairāgyaṁ jñānaṁ ca yad ahaitukam [SB 1.2.7]

[By rendering devotional service unto the Personality of Godhead, Śrī Kṛṣṅa, one immediately acquires causeless knowledge and detachment from the world.]

Without bhakti there is no jñāna. But without jñāna, bhakti can be practiced.

Devotee: Jaya. Haribol.

Prabhupāda: [Hindi conversation] Yes. Otherwise why Kṛṣṅa says, striya śūdrās tathā vaiśyās te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim? [Hindi] Stri, śūdra or vaiśya, they are not advanced in knowledge, but Kṛṣṅa says, striya śūdrās tathā vaiśyās te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ [Bg 9.32].

[O son of Pṛthā, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth—women, vaiśyas [merchants], as well as śūdras [workers]—can approach the supreme destination.]

[Hindi] Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti-yogaḥ-prayojitaḥ [SB 1.2.7].

[By rendering devotional service unto the Personality of Godhead, Śrī Kṛṣṅa, one immediately acquires causeless knowledge and detachment from the world.]

When he applies bhakti-yoga at the lotus feet of Vāsudeva, janayaty āśu vairāgyam. [Hindi]

Dr. Patel: Jñāna means only God is right, Kṛṣṅa is right, and all this is wrong.

Prabhupāda: No, jñāna means... Real jñāna means "We don't want this material world." That is jñāna. That is vairāgya. Because people are attached to this material world, and jñāna means completely detached. But he's suffering. On account of this attachment, he's taking repeatedly birth, birth, birth, death, birth, death, birth. So jñāna means to get release from this repetition of birth and death.

Dr. Patel: That is because the people have atmā-buddhi and kunape tri-dhātuke.

Prabhupāda: These rascals talk of jñāna, but they keep full attachment for this material world.

Dr. Patel: The kunape tri-dhātuke.

Prabhupāda: [Hindi] Jñāna-vairāgyam. One must feel disgusted in this material world, repetition of birth and death. That is jñāna. If one is not disgusted—he still thinks it is very nice to take birth and die—then where is jñāna? There is no jñāna. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's disciples said, āra nāre bāpa. Āra nāre bāpa [CB Madhya-khaṅḍa 13.225]. [Hindi]

Dr. Patel: No, even, you see, sir, this attraction to the other sex is so strong and great it is very difficult for human beings to get relief.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is to be explained. That is explained, Bhagavad-gītā,

daivī hy eṣā guṅa-mayi mama māyā duratyayā mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taran... [Bg 7.14]

[This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it.]

This is the way.

[aside:] Hare Kṛṣṅa. Jaya.

Dr. Patel: Extremely difficult, that even man like Gautama Buddha had several times come back to see his child and son when he left his house, more than half a dozen times, come and go, come and go. Finally he closed his eyes and ran away. A man of that type. And for ordinary human beings it is very difficult.

Prabhupāda: No, it is not difficult. Therefore vānaprastha is recommended, that "Go out of home, remain in the tīrtha-sthana and again come, see your children. Again go. Then take sannyāsa.

Dr. Patel: Tapering it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. [Hindi]

Dr. Patel: That is why devata-loka is not a place from where you can have a release. It is from human life that you can have moksa. Devatas cannot get it.

Prabhupāda: No, no, human... Devatas cannot, because they have got enough of material enjoyment.

Dr. Patel: The Americans.

Prabhupāda: Just like America... [laughs] Americans have not even one percent. They are many thousands times opulent, the demigods. So it is very difficult. Just like here, for a very rich man to take to Kṛṣṅa consciousness is very difficult. That is a disquali...

bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ tayāpahṛta-cetasām vyavasāyātmikā-buddhiḥ samādhau na dhigacchati [Bg 2.44]

[In the minds of those who are too attached to sense enjoyment and material opulence, and who are bewildered by such things, the resolute determination of devotional service to the Supreme Lord does not take place.]

[Hindi] Voluntarily sannyāsa. All big, big kings in India, voluntarily: "Eh! Give it! Kick it out!" Mahārāja Bharata, at the age of twenty-four years, he left everything—young wife, children, kingdom, whole world—gave it up. This is Indian culture, vairāgya. Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja, [Hindi] as soon as the grandson, Mahārāja Parīkṣit, was major: "Take it. We are going." That is the fact. [Hindi] Even Mahatma [Gandhi]. He declared himself mahātmā. He is such a mahātmā that unless he was killed by Godse, he was not leaving anything. He was not prepared. This is mahātmā, Kali-yūga ka mahātmā. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ, bhajanty ananya-manaso [Bg 9.13].

[O son of Pṛthā, those who are not deluded, the great souls, are under the protection of the divine nature. They are fully engaged in devotional service because they know Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, original and inexhaustible.]

[Hindi] ...politics, politics, politics. [Hindi] ...nonviolence theory. Kṛṣṅa said, "You will die by violence. Nonviolence... There cannot be nonviolence. You wanted to prove nonviolence from Bhagavad-gītā and criticize Me, Kṛṣṅa. All right, you die." Hare Kṛṣṅa.

Dr. Patel: But it is a narrow sight that Kṛṣṅa was a war-mongerer. Mr. Nehru, he was more...

Prabhupāda: Nehru is... What is his value?

Dr. Patel: He said, "Kṛṣṅa is the greatest war-mongerer."

Prabhupāda: Nehru and company are praised... That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhag... Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ [SB 2.3.19]. Puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. A big animal is being eulogized by small animals. Does it mean a big animal is a human being? He's animal.

Dr. Patel: I think he had not understood exactly.

Prabhupāda: What he understood?

Dr. Patel: The second adhyaya, Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: He never knew what is Gītā. He plainly...

Yaśomatīnandana: He was an atheist.

Prabhupāda: In America, when he went, somebody requested, "You explain something of Gītā." He said, "I do not know much about Gītā." He explained. He frankly admitted that "I do not know." His excuse was like that. And he did not know anything. He thought, "Overnight, if I make my country like America, that is success." And he constructed a few skyscraper building, or big, big building in New Delhi, and he thought, "My country is like that." Therefore, when President Eisenhower came, he wanted to see the village. And as soon as he saw the village, the secret was out.

Dr. Patel: No, that man was a dreamer rather than a practical man. Practical man was only Sadar Patel.

Prabhupāda: Jaya.

[break] Those who are intelligent Indians, they should combine together and present Indian culture as it is. Then the country is glorified. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṅa. [break] ...kari karo paropakara [Cc Ādi 9.41].

[One who has taken his birth as a human being in the land of India [Bhārata-varṣa] should make his life successful and work for the benefit of all other people.]

This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's. The whole world is in darkness. Give them some light. First of all you yourself take light; then you distribute. [japa] [break] ...letter, that "Now you have got sva-rājya, you give up this nonsense. Preach Bhagavad-gītā. Otherwise you will meet the fate of Mussolini." And actually it was done.

Yaśomatīnandana: It seems that it is better that he did not preach Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Yaśomatīnandana: With his understanding.

Prabhupāda: Of course, one cannot preach Bhagavad-gītā unless he is empowered by Kṛṣṅa. That is not possible. Kṛṣṅa śakti vinā nahe nāma pracaraṅa [Cc Antya 7.11]. It is not possible. [end]