Room conversation

Room Conversation – April 14, 1976, Bombay

Prabhupāda: How can young man [indistinct] understand the aim of life? It is stated in [indistinct]. They are being educated by the [indistinct], but they do not know what is the aim of life. What kind of education?

Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I was reading an examination book in Bengal when we were in that small village. And under the psychology section they have one question, “What is the physical basis of consciousness?” This was standard question in Bengal on psychology for high school: “What is the physical basis of consciousness?” So that is what they are asking them. This is exactly...

Prabhupāda: [indistinct] either. The subtlety.

bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca [Bg 7.4]

[Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego—altogether these eight comprise My separated material energies.]

Eight: gross and subtle. Mind is subtle matter.

Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, how does the subtle mind connect to the gross senses?

Prabhupāda: Mind is the controller of the senses.

manaḥ-ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṅi prakṛti-sthāni karṣati [Bg 15.7]

With mind and the senses, six senses, the living being is struggling in this material world, prakṛti. Everyone is struggling; that is also true. Western theories, struggle for existence. They are struggling, and this is the relief, Kṛṣṅa consciousness. When he gets Kṛṣṅa consciousness… Just like the other day, the Mathurā meeting, one small child, two years old, was young, and one boy took him on the stage, and his mother came. So how anxiously he went to his mother, happy, steady. He was feeling vacant, all world, without mother. So many people are gathering, but because he could not find out his mother, he was abject. That is struggle for existence. Everything is there, but he is finding better. And that is our position. We are also part and parcel of Kṛṣṅa. So without Kṛṣṅa the hard struggle for existence is going on. But as soon as he will get Kṛṣṅa, he will be relieved. That is natural, exactly like the child without mother. World, seeing everything vacant; at that stage he cried. That is exhibited by Caitanya Mahāprabhu,

śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ govinda-viraheṅa me. yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṅa cakṣuṣā prāvṛṣāyitam śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ govinda-viraheṅa me [Śikṣāṣṭaka 7]

[O Govinda! Feeling Your separation, I am considering a moment to be like twelve years or more. Tears are flowing from my eyes like torrents of rain, and I am feeling all vacant in the world in Your absence.]

[aside: Come on, this side.]

Devotee: In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam you said in the purports that the subtle body—mind, intelligence and false ego....

Prabhupāda: [aside:] Get the light on. Yes? Push it.

Devotee: The subtle body determines what goes on in the gross body, next gross body.

Prabhupāda: The subtle body does not determine.

Devotee: His mind, intelligence and false ego?

Prabhupāda: I make a situation, then the higher authorities, nature, or above nature, Kṛṣṅa, decides. When you are punished of the warders by the court, the decision is made by the authorities, not by you. There... [brief Hindi conversation with Indian lady] [aside: Somebody give prasādam.] We create a situation, and the decision is higher authority: karmaṅā daiva-netreṅa [SB 3.31.1].

[The Personality of Godhead said: Under the supervision of the Supreme Lord and according to the result of his work, the living entity, the soul, is made to enter into the womb of a woman through the particle of male semen to assume a particular type of body.]

Daiva-netreṅa, higher authority. Otherwise everyone would have decided that “I shall become a king.” Why not everyone? Why one becomes a stool worm? That is hard decision. What he has done, how he has created his mentality—according to that. Kṛṣṅa is there within your heart. He knows everything.

īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg 18.61]

[The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart, O Arjuna, and is directing the wanderings of all living entities, who are seated as on a machine, made of the material energy.]

When He understands that “He wants to become like this,” then He orders through the material nature, “Give him a body like this.”

bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā [Bg 18.61]

Kṛṣṅa orders māyā that “Give him a body which is just like a machine,”yantra. Yantra means a machine.

So he is seated on a certain type of machine. If he has developed pig’s mentality, nature will give him a body of a pig, and he will very gladly eat stool. Similarly, if he has developed the mentality of higher demigods, he'll have body. Similarly, if he has developed Kṛṣṅa consciousness, he will go to Kṛṣṅa. [indistinct] It depends on him.

yānti deva-vratā devān pitṝn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ [Bg 9.25]

[Those who worship the demigods will take birth among the demigods; those who worship ghosts and spirits will take birth among such beings; those who worship ancestors go to the ancestors; and those who worship Me will live with Me.]

You develop. Therefore the best thing is to associate with devotees and develop Kṛṣṅa consciousness. Try to understand Kṛṣṅa, and then go back to home. That is the best utility of your life.

janma karma ca divyam me yo janati tattvataḥ [Bg 4.9]

[One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna.]

If you simply try to understand Kṛṣṅa as He is, then you become liberated, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma: “After leaving of this body, he does not take up any more material body.” Material body is subjected to change, one body after another, one body after another. According to his mentality he is given by nature different types of body. He suffers.

So if you want to stop this suffering of pralīyate, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate, taking one birth or again giving up this body and again accepting another… They do not… They have… The conditioned soul has become so dull and rascal, he does not take seriously that “Why I am dying?” Therefore they have made their own theory, that there is no life after death, everything finished after death. This is the opinion of the Western philosophers, big, big professor, like Professor Kotovsky, Indologist. He said, “Swamījī, after death everything is finished.” That means they have no spiritual idea. And our spiritual idea begins from the acceptance of transmigration of the soul. You go even to a village, illiterate, he believes in transmigration of the soul. Ordinary illiterate villagers, he believes. You have seen in Vṛndāvana? The other day, four or five days before, he was. You know? He was with me, walking in the field, and the kishan—some of them were poor [indistinct]—they came to congratulate me: “Sir, you have come to our field. It is a great fortune. Come here!” And your country it is trespass. [laughter] “Beware of the dog!” “Private!” Warns everyone not to come to my jurisdiction. And here the illiterate, the kishan, he saw one saintly man, he thought, “It is my great fortune that he has come.” That is the difference between East and West. There they take it as trespass: “Why this man has come to my land?” He can fire even. But still.

So taking birth in India, where Bhagavad-gītā was spoken by the Supreme Lord, we are so bewildered that we do not take the knowledge seriously. How much unfortunate? We question about Kṛṣṅa’s instruction and do not take it, and daily manufacture a type of formula. Big, big men like Mr. Mundar[?]—such a nice man—he has manufactured religion, manah[?]. Every day, one becoming a different type of incarnation and a different type of religious system. And to make a compliment big, big swāmīs they are saying, “Yes. Yata mata tata pat. Whatever you manufacture, it is all right.” This is India's misfortune. By birth he is fortunate; by work he is misfortunate. This is the situation. He has taken birth in India, it is a great fortune: bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya janma haila [Cc Ādi 9.41].

[One who has taken his birth as a human being in the land of India [Bhārata-varṣa] should make his life successful and work for the benefit of all other people.]

And without taking advantage of the great birth, he is misguided by the rascals. The whole country is now killed. Killed. The demigods desired to come to take birth again in India. That is stated in the Bhāgavata. The climate, the atmosphere, the education, the knowledge, wealth of knowledge, saintly persons… Kṛṣṅa comes here; Lord Rāmacandra comes here; Caitanya Mahāprabhu. We are so unfortunate, and to give to these bad leaders. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās [SB 7.5.31].

[Persons who are strongly entrapped by the consciousness of enjoying material life, and who have therefore accepted as their leader or guru a similar blind man attached to external sense objects, cannot understand that the goal of life is to return home, back to Godhead, and engage in the service of Lord Viṣṅu. As blind men guided by another blind man miss the right path and fall into a ditch, materially attached men led by another materially attached man are bound by the ropes of fruitive labor, which are made of very strong cords, and they continue again and again in materialistic life, suffering the threefold miseries.]

One blind man is leading hundreds of blind men, and everyone is falling to the ditch. [break]

What business? Because they have become so mad that directly they will simply argue. They will not accept. The prahar’s[?] business is to flatter them and request them, “Kindly take this. Kindly take this.” Dante nidhāya tṛṅakaṁ padayor nipatya [Caitanya-candrāmṛta]. After taking the grass in the mouth—because this is Indian way of humbleness, to take a grass and approach a gentleman—that means he has become a very humble [indistinct].

dante nidhāya tṛṅakaṁ padayor nipatya kāku-śatam kṛtvā cā... [Caitanya-candrāmṛta 8.90]

[Taking a straw between my teeth and falling at your feet a hundred times, I humbly submit, "O great personality, please give up all mundane knowledge that you have learned and just submit yourself at the lotus feet of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu."]

Then many flattering words I am submitting. So the man, he’s approach him and say, “All right, you can say what is your desire.”Kāku-śatam kṛtvā ahaṁ bravīmi he sādhavaḥ. When you give chance, “All right, speak what you want to say.” Then he says, he sādhavaḥ. Oh, he was a great sādhu. He sādhavaḥ, sakalam eva vihāya dūrād: “You are great sādhu, but kindly give up whatever nonsense you have learned.” This is the [indistinct]. Sakalam eva vihāya dūrād: “You are such a great person, but you are full of all nonsense knowledge. Kindly give it up.” “Then what have I to do?”Caitanya-candra-caraṅe kurutānurāgam: “You kindly be attached to Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu.” This is all right. We know he is a first-class fool, but he pretends to be a very learned scholar. So how he can be applaused? He sādhavaḥ sakalam eva vihāya: “Kindly give up all nonsensical ideas you have learned, and take to Kṛṣṅa consciousness.” This is our... That is our preaching. So much nonsensical ideas they have developed. That is why it is very difficult.

So this is the way of purport: he sādhavaḥ. If I say that you are rascal, [laughter] then you will be angry. Murkhāyopadeśo hi prakopāya na śanta: if you advise good thing to a rascal, he will be angry, that is all. Therefore very politely, he sādhavaḥ: “You are a great sādhu, but one request, that is: forget all nonsense you have learned.” That's all. In India they have simply learned all nonsense at the present moment. They have given up Kṛṣṅa's instruction, and they have learned all nonsense. Rubbish. This is going on. So if intelligent we learn at all, we shall give all nonsense ideas and take to Kṛṣṅa's instruction. That is the successful. Are you agreeable? [laughter] Ha!

Devotee (2): [to guest] Are you agreeable?

Guest: [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: Huh? “All right,” here you say. As soon as you go you will say, “No, you are nonsense. I am right.”

he sādhavaḥ sakalam eva vihāya dūrād caitanya-candra-caraṅe kurutānurāgam [Caitanya-candrāmṛta]

And you become attached to Caitanya, Caitanya-candra. You should become dearly attached to Caitanya-candra. Then you will become guru immediately. Caitanya-candra said, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa [Cc Madhya 7.128]:

[Instruct everyone to follow the orders of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṅa as they are given in the Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. In this way become a spiritual master and try to liberate everyone in this land.]

“Wherever you are, there is a country,” Caitanya-candra says, “you become a guru.” That is Caitanya. He asks everyone, every birth of India, bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya janma haila [Cc Ādi 9.41].

[One who has taken his birth as a human being in the land of India [Bhārata-varṣa] should make his life successful and work for the benefit of all other people.]

Anyone who has taken birth as human being in India is given so much facility. Janma sārthaka kari': make your life successful and become a guru. You have got the capacity.

Devotee: Of course, the concept of transmigration of the soul is…

Prabhupāda: By birth you, you are so advanced. [aside: Take this.] Simply by taking birth in India. Just like in the village, you go, mostly illiterate, personally they will see you immediately a saintly person, immediately believe in the transmigration of the soul. Still, how much advantage it is in India? Simply he has to adjust only things a little. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā [Cc Madhya 7.128]:

“Every one of you become a guru.” “How? What shall I do to become a guru? I am illiterate; I have no education. How I can become guru?”Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṅa'-upadeśa: you hear instruction of Kṛṣṅa and just transfer it. [aside: Go on.] You hear from the right person that Kṛṣṅa is the Supreme, and you simply say, “Kṛṣṅa is the Supreme.” But you do not do it. Where is the difficulty? Kṛṣṅa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg 7.7]:

[O conqueror of wealth [Arjuna], there is no Truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread.]

“I am the Supreme.”Aham ādir hi devānāṁ [Bg 10.2]. You hear it from right person and go everywhere and say, “Kṛṣṅa is the Supreme Being,” and you just become a devotee of Him. Then you become a guru. And if you cheat them, show them some jugglery and become yourself Kṛṣṅa, then what can you do? That is going on. The so-called gurus, rascals, they are trying to become Kṛṣṅa. Instead of preaching Kṛṣṅa’s they are trying to become Kṛṣṅa. Is it possible? But they think Kṛṣṅa very insignificant. They do not know what is the meaning of Kṛṣṅa.

yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṅḍa-nāthāḥ viṣṅur mahān sa iha yasya kalā-viśeṣo [Bs 5.48]

[Brahmā and other lords of the mundane worlds, appearing from the pores of hair of Mahā-Viṣṅu, remain alive as long as the duration of one exhalation of the latter [Mahā-Viṣṅu]. I adore the primeval Lord Govinda of whose subjective personality Mahā-Viṣṅu is the portion of portion.]

They’re asuric. Mahā-Viṣṅu, from whose breathing millions of universes are coming out and going in, this Mahā-Viṣṅu is a partial representation of Kṛṣṅa. This is Kṛṣṅa. Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya. Just like we inhale, exhale out, and so many atoms are coming out and going in. Similarly, Mahā-Viṣṅu is breathing, and millions of universes are coming and going. That Mahā-Viṣṅu, viṣṅur mahān sa iha, yasya kalā-viśeṣo, govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ, that is Kṛṣṅa.

[Hindi aside] Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā [Bg 9.11]:

[Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature and My supreme dominion over all that be.]

those who are rascals are thinking of Kṛṣṅa, “Huh, Kṛṣṅa may be a little more intelligent than me[?]. I am as good as Kṛṣṅa.” This is going on, mūḍhās.

[aside: Got it?]

Devotee: [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Devotee: [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Devotee: Flowers.

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Guest: Can I ask you a question?

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Guest: Is the guru an absolute necessity for spiritual advancement?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Guest: Is the guru an absolute necessity for spiritual advancement?

Prabhupāda: What do you think?

Guest: Because they are so rare, as you say it. There are so many gurus who are posing as [indistinct], which in itself disqualifies them to be gurus, and they are very rare. And how can one have gurus when they are so rare?

Prabhupāda: Yes. When you go to purchase gold, you must have some idea what is gold. Otherwise you will be cheated. When you want to purchase gold you must have some idea of gold. If you have no idea, then you will be cheated.

Guest: Then…

Prabhupāda: First of all you must have to know, knowledge, what is guru. Otherwise you will be cheated.

Guest: If one hasn’t got a guru, then how shall he advance?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is essential: ādau gurvāśra. But you do not know, at least, what is the nature of guru, then you will be cheated. Just like here the definition of guru I was speaking. You did not hear. You did not hear?

Guest: No.

Prabhupāda: I was speaking, and you did not hear? The symptom of guru?

Guest: Yes. [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Guest: He should know…, he himself should have realized, given…

Prabhupāda: What is that realization?

Guest: He should have experienced what is given...

Devotee: What is that experience?

Prabhupāda: That means you are hearing, you’re thinking something else. I was just explaining what is guru a minute before, and you are asking the same question. Caitanya Mahāprabhu gives you the idea of guru, that āmāra ājñāya guru hañā, tāra' ei deśa [Cc Madhya 7.128].

He is saying that “You become a guru. I order you.” So what you will answer, sir? “I do not know anything. How shall I become guru? Are you asking me to become a guru?” The next line He says, “Yes. You can become guru immediately.”Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṅa'-upadeśa: “You simply repeat the instruction of Kṛṣṅa; then you become a guru.” What is the difficulty? Is there any difficulty? [Hindi] So if you simply understand Bhagavad-gītā, then you will understand guru also. You will not be cheated by so-called gurus. [break]

Śiṣyas te 'haṁśādhi māṁ tvāṁ prapannam [Bg 2.7].

[Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all composure because of weakness. In this condition I am asking You to tell me clearly what is best for me. Now I am Your disciple, and a soul surrendered unto You. Please instruct me.]

Therefore a guru means one who speaks on behalf of Kṛṣṅa, aiyee, he is guru. This is the definition of guru. Aiyee. There is no difficulty to find out guru. Just like if you want to purchase gold, you can purchase, although there is chance of being cheated. But you do not say that there is no gold. That you cannot say. Gold is there, but if you are a rascal you will be cheated. That is…, depends on your knowledge. Gold is there; otherwise the world cannot go on. There is so many volumes of business in transactions of gold—going, coming, purchasing, selling. You cannot say there is no gold. But if you are a rascal, then you will be cheated. Somebody will give you iron and say, “It is gold. Take it.” It depends upon you, a little intelligence. You cannot say because I have been cheated that there is no gold. Can you say like that? You do not know; you are a rascal. You do not know to find out where is gold, but you cannot say there is no gold. That is not possible. Real. Huh? Ki yuh? Because one has been cheated, he cannot say that there is no gold. Because you have been cheated by some counterfeit coins or notes, you cannot say there is no real note. It is your less intelligence you have been cheated. So guru's definition is given there in the śāstra, by the authorities. These are given, guru’s symptoms. Just like we offer prayer to guru:

saṁsāra-dāvānala-līḍha-loka- trāṅāya kāruṅya-ghanāghanatvam prāptasya kalyāṅa-guṅārṅavasya vande guroḥ śrī-caraṅāravindam [Gurv-aṣṭaka 1]

Saṁsāra-dāvānala: this material world is just like blazing fire—dāvānala, forest fire. In the forest nobody goes to set fire; it takes automatically by friction of dried bamboos. Nobody is interested to go to the forest to set fire, but still the fire takes place. Similarly, in this material world everyone wants to live very happily, but it is not allowed; there is fire. So guru means one who can save from this blazing fire. Prāptasya kalyāṅa-guṅārṅavasya: that this forest fire… Sometimes I was only [indistinct] go down the station, and there was forest fire upon the hill, and I asked them, “Why there is smoke?” They said, “There is fire, the very, very top height.” Now who will go there to extinguish the fire? With your fire brigade or bucket of water? Who will be able to extinguish that fire? Then how the fire will be extinguished? Ghanāghanatvam: when there will be sufficient rainfall from the sky. That is guru's business.

prāptasya kalyāṅa-guṅārṅavasya, saṁsāra-dāvānala-līḍha-loka- trāṅāya kāruṅya-ghanāghanatvam [Gurv-aṣṭaka 1]

Kāruṅya-ghanā: guru is bestowed his so much mercy—cloud. A cloud is merciful, pours down rain and the fire becomes extinguished. Similarly, the guru, he has received such mercy from Kṛṣṅa, and he pours over, and the whole fire becomes... Very good.

Guest: I don't see how there are evil forces in the world.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Guest: If the whole world is created by spiritual persons who found a spiritual source, how can there be evil forces?

Devotee: [explaining] He is asking why there is evil in the world. If Kṛṣṅa is the creator of everything, why is there evil in the world? This is your question?

Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṅa has created evil, or you have created evil? Answer this question.

Guest: There is so many devils after...

Prabhupāda: No, first of all answer this question. Evil...

Guest: It is very puzzling, so I am asking you.

Prabhupāda: No, whether you have created evil or Kṛṣṅa has created evil? You are infected with some disease, so you have infected or Kṛṣṅa has infected you? You are suffering from cholera, and the doctor says that you have infected cholera germ. So you have done it, or Kṛṣṅa has done it?

Guest: It is a great riddle. Nobody has so far solved it.

Devotee: [explaining] He says it is an unsolvable riddle so far.

Prabhupāda: Not unsolvable. You are…, you are going to jail, so your position of your going to jail is created by you or by Kṛṣṅa? Who has created that position? Hm? Answer this.

Guest: What I wanted to say is that....

Prabhupāda: You want to say; I want to say this. Answer this.

Devotee: [explaining to guest] You commit a crime and go to jail. Are you responsible or is Kṛṣṅa responsible?

Guest: Well, He will also have...

Prabhupāda: Why don't you understand that evil you create? Kṛṣṅa does not create. Kṛṣṅa wants to save you, that “You rascal, don't create evil. You surrender unto Me.” Mūḍhā. Why you are creating evil? That is Kṛṣṅa's concern. Kṛṣṅa says “You don't do it. Why you are doing that?” So who is creating evil? You are creating. You are creating your own evil, and you are accusing Kṛṣṅa. How much fool you are, just imagine. Kṛṣṅa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya, mām [Bg 18.66]. “Why you are creating evil? You give up everything, come to Me.” Why don't you go? And Kṛṣṅa is creating your evil? He is trying to save you from evil, and you are accusing Kṛṣṅa that He is creating. Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo, mokṣayiṣyāmi [Bg 18.66], and still you are accusing Kṛṣṅa. How much fool you are? Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam [Bg 7.25].

[I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent. For them I am covered by My eternal creative potency [yoga-māyā]; and so the deluded world knows Me not, who am unborn and infallible.]

Find out this verse, tribhir guṅa-mayair bhāvair [Bg 7.13].

[Deluded by the three modes [goodness, passion and ignorance], the whole world does not know Me who am above the modes and inexhaustible.]

Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, isn’t it also true that if we think that Kṛṣṅa is creating this evil then we will never take a step to cure our own problem?

Prabhupāda: Then that is avoiding Kṛṣṅa. “Kṛṣṅa has created evil; why should I go to Kṛṣṅa?” This is the argument. “I shall create my own religion.” That's all. Yata mat tata path. Read it.

Devotee:

tribhir guṅa-mayair bhāvair ebhiḥ sarvam idaṁ jagat mohitaṁ nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam [Bg 7.13]

Prabhupāda: What is the translation? Read loud.

Devotee: “Deluded by the three modes, goodness, passion and ignorance, the whole world does not know Me, who am above the modes and inexhaustible.”

Prabhupāda: Purport.

Devotee: “The whole world is enchanted by three modes of material nature. Those who are bewildered by these three modes cannot understand that transcendental to this material nature is the Supreme Lord, Kṛṣṅa. In this material world everyone is under the influence of these three guṅas and is thus bewildered.

“By nature living entities have particular types of body and particular types of psychic and biological activities accordingly. There are four classes of men functioning in the three material modes of nature. Those who are purely in the mode of goodness are called brāhmaṅas. Those who are purely in the mode of passion are called kṣatriyas. Those who are in the modes of both passion and ignorance are called vaiśyas. Those who are completely in ignorance are called śūdras. And those who are less than that are animals or animal life. However, these designations are not permanent. I may be either a brāhmaṅa, kṣatriya, vaiśya or whatever—in any case, this life is temporary. But although life is temporary and we do not know what we are going to be in the next life, still, by the spell of this illusory energy, we consider ourselves in the light of this bodily conception of life, and we think that we are American, Indian, Russian or brāhmaṅa, Hindu, Muslim, etc. And if we become entangled with the modes of material nature, then we forget the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is behind all these modes. So Lord Kṛṣṅa says that men deluded by these three modes of nature do not understand that behind the material background is the Supreme Godhead.

“There are many different kinds of living entities—human beings, demigods, animals, etc.—and each and every one of them is under the influence of material nature, and all of them have forgotten the transcendent Personality of Godhead. Those who are in the modes of passion and ignorance, and even those who are in the mode of goodness, cannot go beyond the impersonal Brahman conception of the Absolute Truth. They are bewildered before the Supreme Lord in His personal feature, which possesses all beauty, opulence, knowledge, strength, fame and renunciation. When even those who are in goodness cannot understand, what hope is there for those in passion and ignorance? Kṛṣṅa consciousness is transcendental to all these three modes of material nature, and those who are truly established in Kṛṣṅa consciousness are actually liberated.”

Prabhupāda: So the conclusion is that we create our own evils.

Guest: Whatever the destructive forces like [indistinct] have taken all these things. It is not created by demons.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: They are also destructive forces...

Prabhupāda: Yes. To destroy you, because you are accusing Kṛṣṅa, then you shall be destroyed. Yes. [aside: Some of our men may... Now make place for the outsiders. You can go upstairs. Eh?] [Hindi]

Devotee: …go see one...

Prabhupāda: Yes. That'll be nice. [break]

Devotee (2): ...Bhāgavatam that when there was a God conscious king, there was no natural disasters in the kingdom.

Prabhupāda: Yes, because he was guiding the citizens to become God conscious. That is the duty of the king—to see that everyone is following his principles: brāhmaṅa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. That is secular state: that you may follow any path of religious system, but you must follow it. That is the duty of the state. If you say that you are Hindu, then you must follow the Hindu codes. If you say that you are a Christian, you must follow the Christian codes. But secular state does not mean that you become without religion. Whatever you profess, you do it nicely. That is government’s duty to see—don't cheat. I am talking that I am a brāhmaṅa, and I am doing the cobbler's business—that is cheating. If you are doing the cobbler's business, you say that you are a cobbler. Why do you say that “I am brāhmaṅa”? That is governments business. If you are doing the cobbler's business and professing as brāhmaṅa, you should be punished immediately. Just like a layman, he does not know anything about medical science, and keeping some bottles, false bottles, colored water. And if you declare sincerely that “I am doctor, medical man,” he is a cheater; he should be punished. Similarly, you profess your own way of religion, it doesn't matter, but you must follow that religion properly.

Just like Hindu religion: so who is a Hindu who does not accept Bhagavad-gītā? Then how he is Hindu if he does not accept Bhagavad-gītā? If he says, “I am Hindu, but I don't believe in Bhagavad-gītā,” he should be immediately punished, that either you shall give up your name as Hindu or you must accept it, Bhagavad-gītā. If you say that you are Christian, you must accept Bible, the teachings of Bible. The teachings of Bible, the Ten Commandments, Christ says, “Thou shall not kill,” and if you are killing, then you are not a Christian; you are cheater. The Muhammad says you must go five times to the mosque and offer prayers; if you want to kill animals, you must sacrifice it in this mosque. But he is not following that tenet, he is a cheater. It is state's duty is to see that either a Hindu or Muslim or Christian or anyone, he must following the religious principles. That is the duty. That is secular state. Not that because the state is secular you can do whatever you like. That is very irresponsible state. There is no harm, either you become a Christian or Hindu or Muslim. It doesn't matter. But you must follow the principles; then the state will be nice. If a man is strictly following some religious principle, it doesn't matter what religion he is following—then he is a good man. There is no doubt about it. No religion says that “You become a thief, rascal.” Just like in Muhammadan religion intoxication is strictly forbidden. In our Bhagavad-gītā also, the Buddha religion, ahiṁsā– but all the combined instruction of all the other religions you will find in Bhagavad-gītā. You find out this verse, ahiṁsā:

amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam [Bg 13.8]

It includes all religious principles, the summary of all religions. Either a Hindu or a Muslim or a Christian—anyone can follow the teachings of Bhagavad-gītā.

In Durban I was talking with some scholarly society. So there was a Indian, he belongs to the Ārya-samāj, so he said that “Swamījī, you are speaking on the Hindu conception of religion.” Hindu conception of religion? When Kṛṣṅa says,

dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā tathā dehāntara-prāptir [Bg 2.13]

[As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change.]

Dehāntara-prāptir: a child is becoming a boy; a boy is becoming a young man; and a young man becoming an old man—is this Hindu conception? Just see. Rascals. A Muhammadan’s child does not become a Muhammadan young man? The people are thinking “Hindu conception.” What do you mean by Hindu conception? When Kṛṣṅa says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni [Bg 3.14],

[All living bodies subsist on food grains, which are produced from rain. Rains are produced by performance of yajña [sacrifice], and yajña is born of prescribed duties.]

that “You produce sufficient quantity of food grains, and everyone will be happy,” is it meant for the Hindus, not for the Muhammadans? In this way study each and every verse of Bhagavad-gītā. It is applicable to the whole human society. It is not a sectarian thing. Kṛṣṅa cannot speak anything sectarian. He says, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā [Bg 14.4]:

[It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed-giving father.]

“I am the father of everyone.” Does the father say anything particularly to one son and not for the others? If the father advises one son, “My dear boy, you do business like this. This is the way,” is it meant for that particular boy and not for the others? Each and every verse you study, and you will see that it is meant for the whole human society. When He says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg 18.65],

[Always think of Me and become My devotee. Worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend.]

then what is that religion who will not think of God? Is there any religion which does not think of God? If one does not think of God, what kind of religion it is? So Bhagavad-gītā says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto [Bg 18.65]: “Always think of Me—Kṛṣṅa, or God.” So what is the wrong there? If I advise you, “You always think of God,” it is a very wrong thing?

So you study analytically. What is that verse, ahiṁs…, amānitvam adambhitvam [Bg 13.8]. If you become humble and gentle, does it mean that you have to become a Hindu or Muslim? Every person should become humble and gentle, amānitvam adambhitvam. Ahiṁsā: you should not be violent. Every, each and every verse you study, it is not for the Hindus or Muhammadans. Everyone. For the human society.

Devotee:

amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam ācāryopāsanaṁśaucaṁ sthairyam ātma-vinigrahaḥ [Bg 13.8]

Prabhupāda: Read the translation.

Devotee: “Humility, pridelessness, nonviolence, tolerance, simplicity...”

Prabhupāda: So is it for only for the Hindus? This instruction, what is that?

Devotee: “Humility, pridelessness…”

Prabhupāda: Humility. Pridelessness.

Devotee: “…nonviolence...”

Prabhupāda: Nonviolence.

Devotee: “…tolerance…”

Prabhupāda: Tolerance.

Devotee: “…simplicity...”

Prabhupāda: Simplicity. What? What is that? Is it for the Hindus only? Or Muslims? Or Christians? How they are misguided, just see. And we are preaching this Bhagavad-gītā as it is. How these Christians, they are taking? Even it is for Hindus, the Bible also teaches the same thing: “Kingdom of God is for the humble and meek.” It is not sectarian at all. No religious book is sectarian, but according to the country, man. Just like in the Bible, Christ says, “Thou shalt not kill.” So you can understand what kind of men they were—they are very expert in killing. Therefore the first instruction, “Thou shalt not kill” Because those who are sinful, killers, how they will understand about God?

yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṅya-karmaṅām [Bg 7.28]

[Persons who have acted piously in previous lives and in this life, whose sinful actions are completely eradicated and who are freed from the duality of delusion, engage themselves in My service with determination.]

One who is freed from all sinful activities, he can understand God. God is not so cheap. Yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ. These things have to be understood. I shall remain the most sinful man, and I want to understand God and I want to create God—this is going on.

Guest: What is the difference between God, father and guru?

Prabhupāda: God is the supreme father. Guru is your father, your father is your father. God is supreme father. The Christian idea, God is the supreme father: “O God, give us our daily bread.” Just like children in a family ask father, “Give me a biscuit,” the father supplies. So God is supreme father—for everyone. Is there any difficulty? Is there any difficulty to understand? If God is the supreme father—is there any difficulty?

Guest: If I pray “Our Father,” then [indistinct] to Godhead?

Prabhupāda: Eh? What? He is the supreme father. He is father’s father, grandfather's father, great-grandfather’s father—you go on. That is therefore He is called supreme father. If you stick to your father, there is no harm.

Guest: [Hindi: recites a proverb regarding guru]

Prabhupāda: [Hindi]

Guest: I am also asking this question...

Prabhupāda: First of all find out guru. [Hindi]

Guest: Guru...

Prabhupāda: [Hindi] [break]

Pradyumna:

… sa syāj jananī na sā syāt daivaṁ na tat syān na patiś ca sa syān na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum [SB 5.5.18]

“One who cannot deliver his dependents from the path of repeated birth and death should never become a spiritual master, a father, a husband, a mother or a worshipable demigod.”

Prabhupāda: Purport

Pradyumna: “There are many spiritual masters, but Ṛṣabhadeva advises that one should not become a spiritual master if he is unable to save his disciple from the path of birth and death. Unless one is a pure devotee of Kṛṣṅa, he cannot save himself from the path of repeated birth and death. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti so'rjuna. One can stop birth and death only by returning home, back to Godhead. However, who can go back to Godhead unless he understands the Supreme Lord in truth? Janma karma ca me divyam evaṁ yo vetti tattvataḥ. We have many instances in history illustrating Ṛṣabhadeva’s instructions. Śukrācārya was rejected by Bali Mahārāja due to his inability…” [break] [end]