Darsana

Evening Darśana

Prabhupāda: ...cure the diseased condition of our existence, and then it will be cured. For that purpose, we have to execute austerity, penance, tapasā brahmacaryeṅa śamena damena ca [SB 6.1.13].

[To concentrate the mind, one must observe a life of celibacy and not fall down. One must undergo the austerity of voluntarily giving up sense enjoyment. One must then control the mind and senses, give charity, be truthful, clean and nonviolent, follow the regulative principles and regularly chant the holy name of the Lord. Thus a sober and faithful person who knows the religious principles is temporarily purified of all sins performed with his body, words and mind. These sins are like the dried leaves of creepers beneath a bamboo tree, which may be burned by fire although their roots remain to grow again at the first opportunity.]

These practices are there. But there is one practice that is called bhakti. Kevalayā bhaktyā vāsudeva-parayanaḥ [SB 6.1.15]. One.... Vāsudeva-parayanaḥ, vāsudevah sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ [Bg 7.19].

[After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.]

When one understands that Vāsudeva, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṅa, is everything, then he becomes the greatest mahātmā. That platform is achieved after many, many births. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate vāsudevah sarvam iti. So Vāsudeva is canvassing, sarva dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṅaṁ vraja [Bg 18.66]: "You just surrender to Me, I shall give you all protection." And one has to come to this position, vāsudevah sarvam iti. So one who is intelligent, he will take it immediately that bahūnāṁ janmanām ante [Bg 7.19], "After many, many births, if I have come to this position, that 'Vasudeva is everything,' then why not accept Him immediately?" And that is intelligent. Why shall I wait for many, many births? I have got now sense, I have got this human body. Let me do it immediately. That is sense. And if you want to wait for many, many births to come to this conclusion... We can do that. That is our misfortune. So our Kṛṣṅa consciousness movement is that you take immediately, without waiting for many, many births. Don't wait. Now we have got human form of body, and here is opportunity, sarva dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṅaṁ vraja, to take shelter of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Why not do it now?

Indian lady: And it is sure to go through in this life if you try this hard?

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is sure. He says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ [Bg 18.66]. It is sure. It is not speculation. It is fact. As soon as you surrender, you immediately become freed from all sinful reaction of life. And we suffer on account of sinful reaction of life. So intelligence is that "Here is the opportunity, mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te [Bg 7.14],

[This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it.]

to get out of the clutches of the influence of material energy. Why not take it now?" That is wanted. Vāsudevah sarvam iti sa mahātmāh su-durlabhaḥ.

Guest (1) [Indian man]: Swāmī, when you talk of Kṛṣṅa, sometimes when we talk with our friends here, [indistinct] to ask you this thing, when you talk of Kṛṣṅa, do we mean that we are talking of Kṛṣṅa of Mahābhārata, or we are talking of the Kṛṣṅa the God, or the supreme head?

Prabhupāda: Well, Kṛṣṅa Mahābhārata and Kṛṣṅa God is the same person. Why do you differentiate? Why you are differentiating? My question will be how do you differentiate the Kṛṣṅa Mahābhārata and Kṛṣṅa God different? Because Kṛṣṅa is speaking Bhagavad-gītā. That is a chapter in the Mahābhārata. So how do you differentiate? What is the cause that you are differentiating?

Guest (1): Well, I think that the...

Prabhupāda: No, you think you have already explained. But where is the basis of your thinking like that? Because everyone knows the Mahābhārata battle was there, Battle of Kurukṣetra, that is a chapter in the Mahābhārata. And Kṛṣṅa is the speaker in that Battle of Kurukṣetra, and Arjuna is the fighter. How do you take away the Kṛṣṅa of Mahābhārata from the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra? What is your reason?

Guest (1): No, that is all right. Kṛṣṅa, we call... But do we take it, do you take it...

Prabhupāda: You have to take it, because there is no difference. As soon as you bring in Mahābhārata and Kṛṣṅa, the Kṛṣṅa is the same. You cannot take it differently. Because Kṛṣṅa is speaking to one of the parties of the fighters, the Kurus and the Pāṅḍavas, and that is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā. Dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ [Bg 1.1].

[Dhṛtarāṣṭra said: O Sañjaya, after assembling in the place of pilgrimage at Kurukṣetra, what did my sons and the sons of Pāṅḍu do, being desirous to fight?]

Yuyutsavaḥ means two parties desiring to fight. Who are those parties? Māmakaḥ pāṅḍavāś caiva [Bg 1.1]. That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā. That is the Mahābhārata history. So how you can differentiate this Kṛṣṅa, that Kṛṣṅa? There is no possibility. It is imagination. The beginning is Mahābhārata and the Bhagavad-gītā.

Guest (2) [Indian man]: Swāmījī, excuse me for this, I read an article recently. One of my secretaries, he brought that article to me, it was written by Dr. Bannerji in India—he's a professor at Calcutta University. And he says that Kṛṣṅa and the Mahābhārata, the Kurukṣetra, that is all a visionation.

Prabhupāda: That is his foolishness. He's a fool. He does not know the facts, and he has posed himself as a learned scholar. That is the difficulty—fools and rascals presenting themselves as scholar and misrepresenting. People are being misguided. Because he is a learned scholar, you are citing his example.

Guest (2): Yes. Yes, sir.

Prabhupāda: But he is a fool. He does not know what is Mahābhārata, what is Kṛṣṅa. And still, he wants to say something, that is his foolishness. He does not know, and still he wants to speak something. That is cheating. The cheating propensity is there for conditioned souls. He does not know one thing, still he wants to speak as authority. That is cheating. How you can differentiate? If you are actually student of Mahābhārata, then how we can differentiate the speaker in the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra and Kṛṣṅa? Kṛṣṅa is accepted there as Bhagavān. Whenever Vyāsadeva writes Kṛṣṅa statements, he writes bhagavān uvāca. He's Bhagavān, as well as He's a historical person in the Mahābhārata. He never writes kṛṣṅa uvāca; he writes bhagavān uvāca. And Arjuna admits, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān puruṣam ādyam [Bg 10.12],

[Arjuna said: You are the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal divine person. You are the primal God, transcendental and original, and You are the unborn and all-pervading beauty. All the great sages such as Nārada, Asita, Devala, and Vyāsa proclaim this of You, and now You Yourself are declaring it to me.]

"You are the Supreme Person." How can you differentiate Kṛṣṅa of Mahābhārata and Kṛṣṅa of Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṅa...? These are miscalculations.

Guest (1): No, sir, we didn't say that Kṛṣṅa of Mahābhārata; we said that when you read..., I don't know, but what I read, you read the Vedic literatures, there comes some nirguṅa-brahman and saguṅa-brahman. Now my question...

Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṅa is paraṁ brahman. Kṛṣṅa is paraṁ brahman.

Guest (1): Yes, but my [indistinct] came, sir...

Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all, the Brahman, there are... We are all Brahman, living entities. We are simply thinking "I am this body." So when we are... That I was speaking, liberation. When we come to the conclusion that "I am not this body," ahaṁ brahmāsmi... So you are already Brahman, but you are, forgetfully, you are thinking that you are Indian. That is māyā. We are all Brahman, but due to our ignorance, lack of knowledge, we are thinking, "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian," "I am this," "I am that." That is māyā. So when you actually understand that "I am not this body; I am spirit soul," that is the fact. Then that condition is called brahma-bhūtaḥ. Now we are jīva-bhūtaḥ. We are thinking, "I am individual person of this country, of this religion." That is jīva-bhūtaḥ. But when we understand that we are not jīva-bhūtaḥ, we are brahma-bhūtaḥ, that is our liberated position. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā [Bg 18.54].

[And of all yogīs, he who always abides in Me with great faith, worshiping Me in transcendental loving service, is most intimately united with Me in yoga and is the highest of all.]

When one becomes actually in understanding that "I am not this body, I am spirit soul," then my all responsibility of this bodily condition immediately ceases. I am not this body. And why I am working for this body? Why I am in ignorance? That is called brahma-bhūtaḥ. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati. That is liberated stage. So we are already Brahman. There is no question of becoming Brahman. We are mistaking something else, that "I am not Brahman." So when we come to the actual understanding, ahaṁ brahmāsmi, that is called brahma-bhūtaḥ stage. Brahmā-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati samaḥ sarveṣu... [Bg 18.54]. Then he sees everyone on equal level, that every soul is Brahman.

vidyā-vinaya sampanne brāhmaṅe gavi hastini śuni caiva śva-pāke ca paṅḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ [Bg 5.18]

[The humble sage, by virtue of true knowledge, sees with equal vision a learned and gentle brāhmaṅa, a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog-eater [outcaste]]

That is sama-darśinaḥ. He sees the same soul within a learned brāhmaṅa and within a dog. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. That is the stage of bhakti.

brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu mad-bhaktiṁ labhate param [Bg 18.54]

[And of all yogīs, he who always abides in Me with great faith, worshiping Me in transcendental loving service, is most intimately united with Me in yoga and is the highest of all.]

So when you come to the standard of bhakti, then you can understand Kṛṣṅa. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg 18.55].

[One can understand the Supreme Personality as He is only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of the Supreme Lord by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God.]

Unless you come to that stage, you cannot understand Kṛṣṅa; you will mistake. Manuṣyāṅāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye [Bg 7.3].

[Out of many thousands among men, one may endeavor for perfection, and of those who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth.]

This siddhi means to become liberated from the bodily concept of life. So out of many millions of people, one gets the opportunity of becoming siddha, brahma-bhūtaḥ, and yatatām api siddhānāṁ kaścin māṁ vetti tattvataḥ. And those who are siddhas, liberated, out of many of them, kaścin vetti māṁ tattvataḥ. So how this Mr. Bannerji will understand Kṛṣṅa? He is not a bhakta; he cannot understand. He can talk of the honey within the bottle. He cannot taste it. If he wants to taste, somebody must be able to open the bottle and give him little. Then he'll get. Otherwise, let him lick up the bottle. [laughter] That's all.

So those who are licking the bottle, they cannot say what is the taste of the honey. One must actually taste. That is possible, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg 18.55]. That taste is available by the bhaktas, not by the so-called scholars. That is not possible. Nāyam ātmā pravacanena labhyaḥ [Muṅḍaka Upaniṣad 3.2.3].

[The Supreme Lord is not attained by expert explanations, by vast intelligence, nor even by much hearing. He is attained only by one who He Himself chooses. To such a person He manifests His own form.]

That is Vedic injunction. Na medhayā na bahunā śrutena. You cannot realize self by your intelligence or by your learning or by your brain. Nāyam ātmā pravacanena labhyaḥ na bahunā śrutena. So when the ātmā, Paramātmā, reveals Himself to somebody, he can understand. And that revelation is possible when you are a bhakta. Otherwise, it is not... It clearly says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti. It never says, "By brain one can understand." Never says, "By speculation one can understand." No, this is not the process. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ. In the beginning, He said kaścin vetti māṁ tattvataḥ. Yatatām api siddhānām [Bg 7.3]. Those who are siddhas, already liberated, out of them, many, many, still, they are unable to understand, tattvataḥ, in truth. But here He says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ [Bg 18.55].

[One can understand the Supreme Personality as He is only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of the Supreme Lord by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God.]

Only through bhakti one can understand in truth what is Kṛṣṅa. Otherwise it is not possible. Because one is scholar he can understand Kṛṣṅa, that is not the fact.

Mr. Deyani: But this paradox which is existing mostly in Vedas terms, that the form of the God is neti neti, and then they say that whichever people like Rāma and Kṛṣṅa, they call it, is a...

Prabhupāda: They say! What they say, they have no value. Because if it is a fact that one can understand God through bhakti, so whatever bhakta says, that is value. What a nonsense says, it has no value. It has no value. "They say." First of all, you have to think what they are. Are they speculator or bhakta? Just like beginning of Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṅa said, bhakto 'si: "I am talking to you Bhagavad-gītā because you are My bhakta." So it is the subject matter..., Bhagavān is the subject matter for the bhakta, not for others. Others, they will speculate only. They will never understand what is Kṛṣṅa.

Guest (3) [Indian man]: Yesterday you said:

yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata abhyutthānam adharmasya tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham [Bg 4.7]

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is dharmasya glānir, that those who are not bhaktas, speculators, they are talking of God. This is dharmasya glānir. How they can talk of God? They cannot talk. Even they are talking, that is misleading, because nobody can talk of God unless you are devotee of God. You see? Bhakto 'si. Fourth Chapter. The subject matter of Bhagavad-gītā is to be understood by a bhakta, not by a speculator. [aside:] Read it.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: Sa evāyaṁ mayā te 'dya yogaḥ proktaḥ purātanaḥ [Bg 4.3].

[That very ancient science of the relationship with the Supreme is today told by Me to you because you are My devotee as well as My friend; therefore you can understand the transcendental mystery of this science.]

Prabhupāda: Ah, "I am just talking to you that purātanaḥ, old yoga system, which I spoke to the sun-god." "Why you are talking to me?" Then?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: Bhakto 'si me...

Prabhupāda: Bhakto 'si me. He was not a Vedāntist, he was a soldier. So how the soldier can understand the highest topics of bhakti-yoga? Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam [Bg 4.1].

[The Blessed Lord said: I instructed this imperishable science of yoga to the sun-god, Vivasvān, and Vivasvān instructed it to Manu, the father of mankind, and Manu in turn instructed it to Ikṣvāku.]

It is a yoga. How a soldier... Arjuna was not a Vedāntist; he was a fighter. There was a doubt, that "How a soldier can understand?" Therefore Kṛṣṅa says, bhakto 'si: "You can understand because you are My bhakta." The first qualification: one must be a bhakta. Then he can understand. Otherwise it is not possible.

Mr. Deyani: How then can the God come in a human form, because human, when you talk of human body, it is a limited...

Prabhupāda: He does not come in human form. He is like human being, dvi-bhuja. That is also explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. He's... In the Bible it is said that man is made after God. The human being—two hands, two legs, this body they have got—that is the original form of God. But because He comes in that form, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam [Bg 9.11],

[Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature and My supreme dominion over all that be.]

they think that He is a man. His original form is like that. But because we are habituated to see two hands, two legs of human being, we take Him as human being. But that is His original form. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā.

[aside:] Find out.

So if we accept Him as a human being like us, then we are mūḍhā, rascals. He says, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto [Bg 9.11]. They do not know what is behind this human form of life. God is omnipotent, almighty. He can take any form He likes. You cannot check Him. You cannot say, "How Brahman can come in a human form?" Why He cannot come? If He is all-powerful, where is the difficulty? Taking your argument, if Brahman is all-powerful, then where is the difficulty for Him to come as a human being?

Guest (2): No, there cannot be no difficulty. That is reasonable.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But if we take Him... Just like here there are so many gentlemen, now here is a lawyer or here is a high-court judge, and if I take him, that he's also an ordinary man, that is my mistake. Even if he comes as ordinary visitor, still he's high-court judge. His position is not declined.

Guest (2): That, sir, we will have to accept.

Prabhupāda: Therefore Kṛṣṅa, even you take that He has come as human being, still He is Kṛṣṅa, He is God. That is explained.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa:

avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto mama bhūta-maheśvaram [Bg 9.11]

[Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature and My supreme dominion over all that be.]

Translation: "Fools deride Me when I descend in this human form. They do not know My transcendental nature and My supreme dominion over all that be."

Guest (2): Yes, but these type of statements have been made in all the other religions also. The prophet always speaks like...

Prabhupāda: Yes, the prophet can speak. Prophet is representative of God.

Guest (2): Yes, it is like that, sir, just you said it is like a small pond and a big pond. No doubt, He is a big light. You cannot that thing, this thing. But what my confusion is, is this thing, that we have to, and a bhakta will also, with a limited sense, will never be able to go to that extent unless he has to surrender to some bigger power than him. And what I think...

Prabhupāda: That we, we take Kṛṣṅa as the bigger power.

Guest (2): Sure, we have to take. This is my... We have to take a bigger power. Otherwise...

Prabhupāda: So if we take Kṛṣṅa as bigger power, there is no controversy. Whatever He says, you have to accept.

Guest (2): No, we have to take like this. Just like we have to take even some of this, any statement you make, we are going to take it because we think people of your status, who have experienced the life, which I didn't do, they are the authority on that thing.

Prabhupāda: No, if you accept Kṛṣṅa authority, then at least He is bigger than you.

Guest (2): Yes, sure. Not only authority on this thing. Because they have experienced, they have gone through that stage. And definitely we have to, because the..., just like from a teacher a boy learns, and it is that method. You have to learn from a higher person.

Prabhupāda: So you do accept Kṛṣṅa as the highest authority, and not only you accept, but all other authorities, they accept. [aside:] Find out this verse: paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg 10.12].

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa:

arjuna uvāca paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān puruṣaṁ śāśvataṁ divyam... [Bg 10.12]

Prabhupāda: Puruṣaṁ śāśvataṁ divyam...

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: ...ādi-devam ajaṁ vibhum.

Prabhupāda: ...ādi-devam ajaṁ vibhum.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa:

āhus tvaṁ ṛṣayaḥ sarve devarṣir nāradas tathā asito devalo vyāsaḥ svayaṁ caiva bravīṣi me [Bg 10.13]

Prabhupāda: So this is confirmation that He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So if we accept Him as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then you have to accept Him as He says.

Guest (2): As a great power, yes.

Prabhupāda: Not great power, but greatest power. Nobody is greater than Him. That is accepted by the direct listener of Bhagavad-gītā, Arjuna. And he is giving evidences of Vyāsadeva, Asita, Devala, Nārada—they are authorities. And in the recent years, the ācāryas Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka and Caitanya Mahāprabhu, they have all accepted. And He speaks also. Then where is doubt? Where is doubt?

Guest (2): No, I just want to clear this thing. That thing I accept, sir, this thing that it is a great power, the supreme power.

Prabhupāda: Not a great..., the great power. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg 7.7].

[O conqueror of wealth [Arjuna], there is no Truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread.]

There is no more greater power than Him. That is His position.

Guest (2): My point is, sometimes this, a difference comes in this thing. Suppose a man of other religion says, okay...

Prabhupāda: No, no, it is not question of religion. It is a question of God. God is great. That is accepted by all religions. So if Kṛṣṅa is great, then He is God. Where is the argument?

Guest (2): Then they didn't come, just like you stated, that...

Prabhupāda: Then you have to study Kṛṣṅa, that where is the great, the only great. Then you'll understand. God is great, there is. No religion will differ in this connection. But if you find that "Yes, Kṛṣṅa is the greatest," then you have to accept. There is no other argument. So I'll take a little time go to shower. Hare Kṛṣṅa. [devotees and guests offer obeisances]

Hari-śauri: Śrīla Prabhupāda will be coming back in about five minutes. He's just going to the bathroom. [break]

[Prabhupāda returns] ...original Back to Godhead.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We got it from Library of Congress.

Prabhupāda: So God is great. Now we have to analyze what is the greatness. A man is supposed to be great when he is very rich. A man is supposed to be great when he is very wise—man of knowledge, strength, reputation. So item by item, you analyze and see, you'll see Kṛṣṅa is the greatest, by reasoning. Therefore He is God. They have been analyzed. You'll find in The Nectar of Devotion, the Gosvāmīs have analyzed the characteristics of Kṛṣṅa, and they found Him the greatest. So if God is great, and if He is the greatest, then He is God. How can you deny it? At least, we can see in the Bhagavad-gītā, the little knowledge given by Kṛṣṅa, it is still standing as the greatest. Five thousand years past, nobody could give such a book of knowledge throughout the whole world. The Bhagavad-gītā is studied not only by the Indians and the Hindus but by all scholars of the world. Even such persons who think that there is somebody greater than Kṛṣṅa, they also read Bhagavad-gītā and they recite from the Bhagavad-gītā. Even Śaṅkarācārya, the leader of the Māyāvādīs, he says bhagavad-gītā kiñcid adhītā. Is it not? Does he not say?

Guest (3): Was it not true also Śaṅkarācārya, Swāmījī, who said vande kṛṣṅa jagat-guru?

Prabhupāda: Yes, bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindam...

Guest (3): ...vande kṛṣṅa jagat-guru.

Prabhupāda: So he's the leader of the impersonalists, he accepts kṛṣṅas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28].

[All of the above-mentioned incarnations are either plenary portions or portions of the plenary portions of the Lord, but Lord Śrī Kṛṣṅa is the original Personality of Godhead. All of them appear on planets whenever there is a disturbance created by the atheists. The Lord incarnates to protect the theists.]

Sa bhagavān svayam kṛṣṅa. Then what to speak of the Vaiṣṅava ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya? Rāmānujācārya has given Bhagavad-gītā comments, every line Vedic evidences. You read Bhagavad-gītā commented by Rāmānujācārya, you'll find every line he has quoted from Vedas. So there is no doubt about it. Simply one has to study very intelligently about Kṛṣṅa, then he will come to the conclusion that He is God.

Guest (4): I'd like to ask a question, but I'm a little bit timid about doing so, but I will ask it. It's this: Would it be possible to think of... Well, first I'd have to say that I tend to think of religions as personalities. Would it be possible...

Prabhupāda: Why?

Guest (4): All the religions.

Prabhupāda: No, no, why you think like that? You are not authority.

Guest (4): I merely say that I do. I don't say that I'm right to do so. I don't say why; I simply do.

Prabhupāda: This is due to our limited knowledge. Because I am a person, I have got my limited knowledge. I am thinking of God, that "If God is a person, then He has limited knowledge." That means I am bringing God to my level. That is my defect. We say God is all-powerful, almighty, still He cannot become a person. Why do you think that? If He is almighty, He can become person. Then why do you deny it?

Guest (4): Oh, I don't.

Prabhupāda: Then there is no question, you see.

Guest (4): But I still want to ask a question, not that it's a right question, but I do want to ask it. I'm not sure that I can formulate it, but it would be a little like this, maybe. Uh, uh, well, maybe I don't have to ask it. I'll skip it. [laughter]

Prabhupāda: No, you are Christian?

Guest (4): No. I am...

Prabhupāda: You are not Christian? Whatever you may be...

Guest (4): Would it be possible to say—this is my question—would it be possible to say that all the religions are, as it were, aspects of the personality of Kṛṣṅa?

Prabhupāda: No. Our definition of religion is that religion is the word or the law given by God. That is religion.

Guest (4): Yes, but then there are these religions. There's more than one.

Prabhupāda: First of all, we have to agree on the principle. Religion means the word of God or the law given by God. That is religion.

Guest (4): But I go into a Catholic Church, and I feel a different environmental personality from the environmental personality I feel when I come here. Or, and, if I'm looking for God, which I think is here, I feel God, certainly I feel it very strongly, in your person—well, that's a brutal thing to say, but I do—and there it is.

Prabhupāda: That we have already explained. Because every living entity is part and parcel of God, so just like the particle of gold, the gold is there. There is no doubt about it.

Guest (4): Yes, but sometimes you feel it more than at other times.

Prabhupāda: There may be big particle or small particle. But particle there may be different sizes, that is another thing, but as soon as you get a particle, the gold is already there. Similarly, whenever you find any living entity, God is there.

Guest (4): That certainly answers my question then. It really does. Thank you.

Prabhupāda: And actually God is there with the living entity, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg 18.61].

[The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart, O Arjuna, and is directing the wanderings of all living entities, who are seated as on a machine, made of the material energy.]

He particularly pointed out, "Here is God within their core of the heart." Now the yogīs, they try to find out God in his body. That is called meditation. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ [SB 12.13.1].

[Sūta Gosvāmī said: Unto that personality whom Brahmā, Varuṅa, Indra, Rudra and the Maruts praise by chanting transcendental hymns and reciting the Vedas with all their corollaries, pada-kramas and Upaniṣads, to whom the chanters of the Sāma Veda always sing, whom the perfected yogīs see within their minds after fixing themselves in trance and becoming fully absorbed in thoughts of Him, and whose limit can never be found by any demigod or demon—unto that Supreme Personality of Godhead I offer my humble obeisances.]

This is process of the yogīs, to find out God within himself. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is also stated ekatvena... Find out. So God is everywhere, there is no doubt about it. Within you, within me, within the atom, everywhere. Aṅḍāntara-stha-paramāṅu-cayāntara-sthaṁ, govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi [Bs 5.35].

[He is an undifferentiated entity as there is no distinction between potency and the possessor thereof. In His work of creation of millions of worlds, His potency remains inseparable. All the universes exist in Him and He is present in His fullness in every one of the atoms that are scattered throughout the universe, at one and the same time. Such is the primeval Lord whom I adore.]

That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā also, mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam, "I am everywhere." So God is everywhere, that is God's omnipresence, omnipotency. But still God has His actual position. Na cāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ.

mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ jagad avyakta-mūrtinā mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni na cāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ [Bg 9.4]

[By Me, in My unmanifested form, this entire universe is pervaded. All beings are in Me, but I am not in them.]

So this is a great science. If we understand, then we can understand what is God, what is His position, how He is great, everything. That is His greatness. Although He is in His own abode, still, He is everywhere. That is His greatness. I am here, I am not in my bedroom, but about God it is said, goloka eva nivasaty akhilātmā-bhuto [Bs 5.37].

[I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, residing in His own realm, Goloka, with Rādhā, resembling His own spiritual figure, the embodiment of the ecstatic potency possessed of the sixty-four artistic activities, in the company of Her confidantes [sakhīs], embodiments of the extensions of Her bodily form, permeated and vitalized by His ever-blissful spiritual rasa.]

That is God. He is far, far away from our..., this planet. There is a planet, goloka eva nivasaty. He's there, but still He is everywhere. That is His greatness. That is the distinction between Him and us. We are in one place, but we are not all-pervading. In another verse it is explained, kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata [Bg 13.3]. Kṣetra-kṣetrajñayor The living entity is kṣetrajñāḥ, one who knows about his body. The body is called kṣetra, field, field of activities. I am working with this body. The cat is working with his body, dog is working with his body, mosquito is working with his body. The body is the field of activity, and the soul within the body is the owner of the body..., or occupier of the body, not owner. So God is also with him. Therefore He says, kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. God is present along with the living entity, I or you, in everything. I know the pains and pleasure of my body, you know the pains and pleasure of your body, but God knows the pains and pleasure of your body, my body, his body, this body, that body. That is the difference between God and you. These things are explained. [aside:] Go on, read it.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa:

kṣetra-jñam cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata kṣetra-kṣetrajñayor jñānaṁ yat taj jñānaṁ mataṁ mama [Bg 13.3]

Translation: "O scion of Bharata, you should understand that I am also the knower in all bodies, and to understand this body and its owner is called knowledge. That is My opinion."

Prabhupāda: That is greatness. This is the distinction: God is great. I know about my body, you know about your body, but God knows about your body and my body and his body and every... That is greatness. That is explained. That is the distinction. I am small; He is great. I cannot think beyond the scope of this body, or little more; but He knows everything. Vedāhaṁ samatītāni [Bg 7.26]. That is His greatness. So in this way, if we study the greatness of God, then we can understand what is God and what is not God.

Guest (4): Thanks.

Prabhupāda: What is the purport?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: "While discussing the subject of this body and the owner of the body, the soul and the Supersoul, we shall find three different topics of study: the Lord, the living entity, and matter. In every field of activities, in every body, there are two souls: the individual soul and the Supersoul. Because the Supersoul is the plenary expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṅa, Kṛṣṅa says, 'I am also the knower, but I am not the individual owner of the body. I am the superknower. I am present in every body as the Paramātmā, or Supersoul.' One who studies the subject matter of the field of activity and the knower of the field very minutely, in terms of this Bhagavad-gītā, can attain to knowledge. The Lord says, 'I am the knower of the field of activities in every individual body.' The individual may be the knower of his body, but he is not in knowledge of other bodies. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is present as the Supersoul in all bodies, knows everything about all bodies. He knows all the different bodies of all the various species of life. A citizen may know everything about his patch of land, but the king knows not only his palace but all the properties possessed by the individual citizens. Similarly, one may be the proprietor of the body individually, but the Supreme Lord is the proprietor of all bodies. The king is the original proprietor of the kingdom, and the citizen is the secondary proprietor. Similarly, the Supreme Lord is the supreme proprietor of all bodies.

"The body consists of the senses. The Supreme Lord is Hṛṣīkeśa, which means controller of the senses. He is the original controller of the senses just as the king is the original controller of all the activities of the state [break]

kṣetrāṅi hi sarīrāṅi bījaṁ cāpi śubhāśubhe tāni vetti sa yogātmā tataḥ kṣetrajña ucyate

[break] "This body is called the kṣetra, and within it dwells the owner of the body and the Supreme Lord, who knows both the body and the owner of the body. Therefore He is called the knower of all fields. The distinction between the field of activities, the owner of activities and the supreme owner of activities is described as follows. Perfect knowledge of the constitution of the body, the constitution of the individual soul and the constitution of the Supersoul is known in terms of Vedic literature as jñānam. That is the opinion of Kṛṣṅa. To understand both the soul and the Supersoul as one yet distinct is knowledge. One who does not understand the field of activity and the knower of activity is not in perfect knowledge. One has to understand the position of prakṛti [nature], and puruṣa [the enjoyer of the nature], and īśvara [the knower who dominates or controls nature and the individual soul]. One should not confuse the three in their different capacities. One should not confuse the painter, the painting and the easel. This material world, which is the field of activities, is nature, and the enjoyer of nature is the living entity, and above them both is the supreme controller, the Personality of Godhead. It is stated in the Vedic language: bhoktā bhogyaṁ preritaraṁ ca matvā sarvaṁ proktaṁ tri-vidhaṁ brahmam etat [Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 1.12]. There are three Brahman conceptions: prakṛti is Brahman as the field of activities, and the jīva [individual soul] is also Brahman and is trying to control material nature, and the controller of both of them is also Brahman, but He is the factual controller."

Prabhupāda: Therefore He is called Param Brahman. Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma [Chāndogya Upaniṣad 3.14.1].

[Everything, both matter and spirit, is non-different from the Supreme Personality of Godhead who is the Supreme Brahman.]

Everything is Brahman, but He is Param Brahman. That is accepted by Arjuna, paraṁ brahma paraṁ brahma pavitraṁ [Bg 10.12].

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: "In this chapter it will also be explained that out of the two knowers, one is fallible and the other is infallible; one is superior and the other is subordinate. One who understands the two knowers of the field to be one and the same contradicts the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who states here very clearly that 'I am also the knower of the field of activity.' One who misrepresents a rope to be a serpent is not in knowledge."

Prabhupāda: He says, "I am also." Kṣetrajñaṁ ca. Ca means "also." They are two: individual, kṣetrajñaḥ, and the collective, kṣetrajñaṁ ca. "There is kṣetrajñaṁ, I am also there." They are two, not one. Kṣetrajñaṁ cāpi ca api, kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi. As soon as there is ca, "and," there are two. Not one. One is subordinate and one is supreme. Therefore He is addressed, paraṁ brahma. Brahma..., jīva is also Brahman, but He is Param Brahman. Paramātmā: Jīva is also ātmā, but He is Paramātmā. Parameśvara: jīva is also īśvara, but He is Parameśvara. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṅaḥ [Bs 5.1]. This is Vedic version. There are īśvaras, controllers, many controllers, but parama controller, Parameśvara, is Kṛṣṅa.

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṅaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ anādir ādir govindaḥ sarva-kāraṅa kāraṅam [Bs 5.1]

[Kṛṣṅa who is known as Govinda is the Supreme Godhead. He has an eternal blissful spiritual body. He is the origin of all. He has no other origin and He is the prime cause of all causes.]

That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā, aham adir hi devanam... [Bg 10.2].

ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate iti matvā bhajante māṁ budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ [Bg 10.8]

[I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who know this perfectly engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts.]

He is Param Brahma. He is the supreme great. You study, and then you will understand.

But without understanding, if we take that He is also a human being, that is mistake. Paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto mama bhuta-maheśvaram [Bg 9.11]:

[Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature and My supreme dominion over all that be.]

"He does not know what is My background, he's a mūḍha." Therefore mūḍha, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā. We should not remain a mūḍha; we should be intelligent to understand Kṛṣṅa. And that is possible only through bhakti. Kṛṣṅa specifically mentions, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg 18.55].

[One can understand the Supreme Personality as He is only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of the Supreme Lord by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God.]

He never says, "By jñāna, yoga, karma, one can understand Me." No. Bhakti. Bhakto si, "You will understand, Arjuna, because you are My bhakta." That is first qualification to understand Kṛṣṅa. Tad viddhi praṅipātena paripraśnena [Bg 4.34].

[Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth.]

A bhakta is submissive. And nondevotees, they are not submissive. They are so proud that they say, "I am Bhagavān. I am God."

So that attitude will not help to understand. [Prabhupāda converses in Hindi with an Indian lady about how one does not have to renounce family life to understand Kṛṣṅa.] He says paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg 10.12].

He understands perfectly. There is no question of gṛhastha or sannyāsī. It is the question of understanding. And Arjuna is gṛhastha, politician, fighter, and still he is selected to understand Bhagavad-gītā. So gṛhastha. [Hindi] ...in gṛhastha life or sannyāsī. Caitanya Mahāprabhu also says like that, kibā vipra kibā śūdra nyāsī kene naya. [Hindi] I shall speak in English so that others... Kibā vipra, whether one is a brāhmaṅa; kibā śūdra, or whether he is a śūdra; kibā vipra kibā śūdra nyāsī kene naya, or whether he is a sannyāsī. That means whether he is a gṛhastha or brāhmaṅa or... There are eight varṅāśrama—brāhmaṅa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha..., whatever he may be, out of these eight categories.

kibā vipra kibā śūdra nyāsī kene naya yei kṛṣṅa-tattva-vettā, sei 'guru' haya [Cc Madhya 8.128]

[Whether one is a brāhmaṅa, a sannyāsī or a śūdra—regardless of what he is—he can become a spiritual master if he knows the science of Kṛṣṅa.]

Anyone who understands Kṛṣṅa perfectly, he is guru. Just like Arjuna is our guru, but he's a gṛhastha, he's a soldier, he's a kṣatriya. He's neither brāhmaṅa nor sannyāsī nor Vedāntist, nothing of the sort. But he knows Kṛṣṅa; therefore he is guru. So gṛhastha [Hindi]. Śravaṅam, this is the first step of bhakti. Hear about Kṛṣṅa from the right source. Otherwise you will be misguided. Therefore Kṛṣṅa recommends, tad viddhi praṅipātena paripraśnena sevayā [Bg 4.34].

You have to go to a person where you can surrender. [Hindi]

Guest (3): How to...?

Prabhupāda: That we have to test, whether I can surrender to him. That you have to behave with him. Therefore according to system, one has to study before accepting somebody as guru, one has to study that "Whether I can surrender to him?" If you think that "No, I know better than him," don't accept a formal guru. That is mistake. And guru also will see, "He's appealing to me, he is going to accept my discipleship. Let me see whether he is qualified." Then there should be guru and śiṣya, not that as a fashion. Like Arjuna, Arjuna accepted Kṛṣṅa as guru after talking with Him. [aside:] Find out that verse, śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam.

Guest (3): Pṛcchāmi tvāṁ dharma-sammūḍha-cetāḥ.

Prabhupāda: When he was convinced that "I do not find anyone else to give me instruction," then he surrendered.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa:

kārpaṅya-doṣopahata-svabhāvaḥ pṛcchāmi tvāṁ dharma-sammūḍha-cetāḥ yad chreyaḥ syān niścitaṁ brūhi tan me śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ tvāṁ prapannam [Bg 2.7]

Translation: "Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all composure because of weakness. In this condition I am asking You to tell me clearly what is best for me. Now I am Your disciple, and a soul surrendered unto You. Please instruct me."

Prabhupāda: So everyone is perplexed condition. In this material world, you cannot find anyone who is not perplexed. Is there anyone who is not perplexed? Can anyone say that "I am not perplexed"? [laughs] Everyone is. Therefore everyone requires guru. But a guru knows. Guru means like Kṛṣṅa or His representative. Yes?

Guest (4): Sir, you explained that Paramātmā is within everyone, every individual, human and animal alike, and you also explained that Paramātmā is within every atom, too, in the universe. Does that means that I have one Paramātmā plus about six trillion other Paramātmās in the...

Prabhupāda: No, Paramātmā is the same. Paramātmā is the same. Not the Paramātmā within yourself is different from the Paramātmā within myself. The Paramātmā is the same. Just like the sun. If you put here millions of pots with water, in each pot you'll find the sun. But the sun is one. When the sun is on the head, you just phone your friend five hundred miles or five thousand miles away, "Can you tell me where is the sun?" He will say, "It is on my head." How it is possible? Everyone will say, "Now the sun is on my head." That is Paramātmā. He is one, but everyone will say, "He's within me, over my head." That is Paramātmā. Paramātmā is one, but He is everywhere. That is Paramātmā. And I am ātmā, I am only here, that's all. That is the difference. He's not different. Because He is within the core of the heart of a dog and within the core of the heart of a human being, He is different? No. He is the same. Therefore, paṅḍitāḥ samaḥ darśinaḥ [Bg 5.18].

[The humble sage, by virtue of true knowledge, sees with equal vision a learned and gentle brāhmaṅa, a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog-eater [outcaste]]

Guest (4): What about the other atoms within me or the dog? Do you understand what I'm getting at? There are millions of atoms.

Hari-śauri: He's saying this body is comprised of atoms, so the Paramātmā is present within this body alongside the individual soul that's operating this body. But there's also millions of other atoms, and Kṛṣṅa is also within the atoms as well.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (4): I thank you.

Vipina: Mr. Deyani brought a person that he studies under one time to meet me at the temple, and he took a very remote verse out of the Bhagavad-gītā about sacrifice, and his idea is that to perform yajña is the way to purify the universe in this Age of Kali-yuga, and Deyani was very supportive of him. So I was wondering maybe you could explain a little.

Prabhupāda: Now yajña means..., what does it mean, "by yajña"?

Mr. Deyani: Swāmījī, he says that whole Vedic religion is in five: yajña-dāna-tapaḥ-karma-śraddhāya.

Prabhupāda: That is stated in Bhagavad-gītā: yajña-dāna-tapaḥ-karma na tyājyaṁ kāryam eva tat [Bg 17.24].

Mr. Deyani: Yes, he said that. Now he brought one more point, this thing, he says all the world over people have forgotten. Early morning we do..., he says yajña has many meanings, but he says yajña means to burn the cow ghee in the fire, and this fumigation, he gives here certain purifies the atmosphere, and thus, if you do it at the right time in the morning, when the sun—there is some time which he gives—and in the evening, he says you will yourself see that your mind changes, your what you call as praṅa, it affect your praṅa, and then it affects your mind, and if you are complexed or angry, your problem, you will try to understand yourself by yourself. Once you do, he says it's just a physical aid, it is not any spiritual thing, but this is a physical aid. And that is what our..., there are, many Americans are doing here this program. And he gives a very nice scientific background of that thing, which convinces me that what we Hindus, what our Vedic literature, what they have said, it has some scientific meaning behind it, why we did it.

Prabhupāda: But the thing is, accepting his statement, first of all, where is ghee?

Mr. Deyani: Well, in this country you can get, sir.

Prabhupāda: In this country, but there are places there is no ghee. Then how you will perform it? Your first proposition is ghee, but where is ghee? It is all dalda. Now how you can perform yajña? I am talking as a matter of argument. If ghee is not available, then how yajña will be performed?

Mr. Deyani: That is actually the question when I first met him. [laughter] I asked him, really, that's what I told him...

Prabhupāda: Then his proposal is failure. Now you have to take the instruction in the Vedas, that,

kṛte yad dhyāyato viṣṅuṁ tretāyāṁ yajato makhaiḥ dvāpare paricaryāyāṁ kalau tad dhari-kīrtanāt [SB 12.3.52]

[Whatever result was obtained in Satya-yuga by meditating on Viṣṅu, in Tretā-yuga by performing sacrifices, and in Dvāpara-yuga by serving the Lord's lotus feet can be obtained in Kali-yuga simply by chanting the Hare Kṛṣṅa mahā-mantra.]

In the Kali-yuga, the real yajña is hari-kīrtana. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prayair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ [SB 11.5.32].

[In the Age of Kali, intelligent persons perform congregational chanting to worship the incarnation of Godhead who constantly sings the names of Kṛṣṅa. Although His complexion is not blackish, He is Kṛṣṅa Himself. He is accompanied by His associates, servants, weapons and confidential companions.]

Sumedhasaḥ, those who have got good brain, they perform this yajña, hari-kīrtana. So there is no condition. God has give you the tongue. Either you are here or there, you can chant Hare Kṛṣṅa. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prayair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ.

Indian lady: Is number important in chanting? Number? It has to be certain number, or you can just chant?

Prabhupāda: Number? Yes, of course. No. Actually, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ [Cc Ādi 17.31],

[One who thinks himself lower than the grass, who is more tolerant than a tree, and who does not expect personal honor yet is always prepared to give all respect to others can very easily always chant the holy name of the Lord.]

always to be chanted. But because you cannot do that, therefore you must fix up a number. Saṅkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ.

[I offer my respectful obeisances unto the six Gosvāmīs, namely Śrī Rūpa Gosvāmī, Śrī Sanātana Gosvāmī, Śrī Raghunātha Bhaṭṭa Gosvāmī, Śrī Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī, Śrī Jīva Gosvāmī, and Śrī Gopāla Bhaṭṭa Gosvāmī, who were engaged in chanting the holy names of the Lord and bowing down in a scheduled measurement. In this way they utilized their valuable lives and in executing these devotional activities they conquered over eating and sleeping and were always meek and humble enchanted by remembering the transcendental qualities of the Lord.]

Saṅkhyā-pūrvaka, that "I must chant so many times." That is determination. I have prescribed to my disciples that "You must chant at least sixteen rounds." That is very easy. But there is saṅkhyā. Saṅkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ. The Gosvāmīs, they used to do that. So it is... Otherwise, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ. The chanting should go on twenty-four hours. Just like Haridāsa Ṭhākura used to do. He was simply chanting. But that is not possible for ordinary man. Therefore they should have a fixed up, that "I must chant so many times." That will fix up the determination. Bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ [Bg 7.28].

[Persons who have acted piously in previous lives and in this life, whose sinful actions are completely eradicated and who are freed from the duality of delusion, engage themselves in My service with determination.]

There must be some dṛḍha-vratāḥ, that "I must do it." Then the devotion grows very firm. If we become lenient, "All right, I shall do later on..." No, must be done. Dṛḍha-vratāḥ. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ [Bg 9.13].

[O son of Pṛthā, those who are not deluded, the great souls, are under the protection of the divine nature. They are fully engaged in devotional service because they know Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, original and inexhaustible.]

Dṛḍha-vratāḥ. Everything should be determined. Then spiritual progress will be rapid.

Mr. Deyani: So many, when we go to our offices, since we come from India, naturally the very intelligent young boys and girls, they ask various questions to us. And just for the sake of their curiosity, naturally they ask the question about the Kṛṣṅa consciousness, we try to explain our ways, whatever we know. What explanation we have got when they put the example of, you know, that sixteen-year-old guru and something like that kind of things? What explanation we have got in that circumstance? In that circumstance, what explanation we have got as an individual for the Kṛṣṅa consciousness?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: This young boy guru, when they bring up this subject matter to the Indians who have come from India who are working here in America, they feel a little embarrassed...

Mr. Deyani: That's true.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: ...lost for words or explanation what to say, that this is their Indian culture. They feel they don't know how to represent themselves.

Mr. Deyani: How to represent the Kṛṣṅa consciousness? This is my question. How to represent it? What to say to them?

Prabhupāda: What is your question? That means you do not know about him.

Mr. Deyani: We don't know about those gurus...

Prabhupāda: You say, "I do not know about him," that's all. The simple truth that "I do not know about him." Why you are very serious about him? He is not very important man.

Mr. Deyani: I even don't know who is he. [laughter] To tell you the truth, I even don't know. [laughter] My wife, she sometimes watch him on the television. There was a program or something like that, that now we..., I don't watch that anymore.

Prabhupāda: He is not important man.

Guest (2): Swāmījī, you just said about the guru, in the Bhagavad-gītā, again after He is explaining to Arjuna all what He said, then ultimately he comes and he says—which the problem in our practical life comes which I see, I see it with me—he spoke very frankly, cañcalaṁ hi manaḥ kṛṣṅa pramāthi balavad dṛḍham [Bg 6.34].

Prabhupāda: Huh? What is that?

Guest (2): After, you know, the Kṛṣṅa has explained to Arjuna all the religion and spirituality, and still a man of the caliber of Arjuna speaks, then he said, cañcalaṁ hi manaḥ kṛṣṅa balavad, that verse.

Prabhupāda: That is said in the Sixth Chapter [Bg 6.34].

Guest (2): That comes in practical life. One might even say that you try to go to a spiritual area, then all these things do come in everybody's life.

Prabhupāda: No, that was spoken in connection with practicing yoga.

Guest (2): But Arjuna got it due to guru, like Kṛṣṅa means is it possible in this age if one has the right guru, a man, he can elevate himself?

Prabhupāda: You can take Arjuna as guru. Kṛṣṅa spoke to Arjuna, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam [Bg 4.2].

[This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way. But in course of time the succession was broken, and therefore the science as it is appears to be lost.]

He directly listened to Him. And he's guru therefore, because the guru is by the paramparā. So he understood Kṛṣṅa. So you take Arjuna's instruction. Make Arjuna your guru. What does he say? He accepts Kṛṣṅa, Param Brahman. So we accept Kṛṣṅa as Param Brahma. Where is the difficulty? Arjuna, by his direct experience talking with Kṛṣṅa, he understood Him that "Kṛṣṅa, You are Param Brahman." So you take the words of Arjuna and accept Him as Param Brahman. Where is the difficulty? Just like the same example, one lawyer giving example, the judgment of other court. That is accepted. So Arjuna is accepting Kṛṣṅa as Param Brahman. So why don't you accept? Where is the difficulty? You accept Arjuna as your guru, and whatever he says, you accept it.

The difficulty is that we do not accept guru. That is the difficulty. Otherwise, where is difficulty? Five thousand years, Kṛṣṅa spoke to Arjuna, but what Arjuna understood, that is there. So you accept it. What we are doing? We are accepting, that's all. Kṛṣṅa said, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg 7.7]:

[O conqueror of wealth [Arjuna], there is no Truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread.]

"There is no more superior truth beyond Me." We are accepting, that's all. Where is the difficulty? But if you do not accept, who can make you to accept? It is not possible. Kṛṣṅa therefore said, mām ekaṁ śaraṅaṁ vraja: "You do it." He never forces him. He's God; He can force, "You must do it." No, He doesn't say "You do it." Not only that, He says, yathecchasi tathā kuru [Bg 18.63]: "Whatever you like, you do." What is that verse?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: Iti te jñānam...

Prabhupāda: Iti te jñānam, huh?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: Ākhyātam.

Prabhupāda: Ākhyātam, "I have spoken to you everything about knowledge." Then?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: Guhyād guhyataraṁ mayā.

Prabhupāda: Guhyād guhyataram. "Jñānam confidential, more confidential, I have spoken to you, one after another." Then?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: Vimṛśyaitad aśeṣeṅa.

Prabhupāda: "Now you consider, vimṛśya. Aśeṣeṅa, without any doubt, fully consider it." Then?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: Yathecchasi...

Prabhupāda: Yathecchasi tathā kuru, full liberty. He never says that "You must do it." No, He never forces. "I have spoken to you everything of all knowledge. Now you consider it, deliberate deliberately. Then you decide yourself what to do." The liberty is given. "But My opinion is sarva dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṅaṁ vraja [Bg 18.66]. That is My opinion. You do it. Otherwise, you do whatever you like." This liberty is there. "But if you, as you are My friend, then I give you the most confidential knowledge." Sarva-guhyatamam. Sarva dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṅaṁ vraja. So it is open to everyone to accept or not to accept. But if you want Kṛṣṅa's opinion, then there is opinion, sarva-dharmān parityajya. Now it is up to you.

Guest (5) [Indian man]: Swāmījī, perhaps you can..., when people ask about that Kṛṣṅa consciousness movement is only limited to a few full-time devotees, I had expressed..., now in Gītā, it is expressed, now read the words according to basic extents to even people who follow and accept Kṛṣṅa to practically everyone, to everyone.

Prabhupāda: Who? Everyone? Everyone is Kṛṣṅa? No?

Guest (5): To all the people who want to accept Movement.

sve sve karmaṅy abhirataḥ saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ sva-karma-nirataḥ siddhiṁ yathā vandati tac chṛṅu [Bg 18.45]

Anybody who wants to accept Kṛṣṅa and Gītā, he is part of, and he can be a part of, the Kṛṣṅa movement.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Guest (5): He can be a part of the Kṛṣṅa movement, with whatever, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ [Bg 9.26].

[If one offers Me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit or water, I will accept it.]

Prabhupāda: So you read next.

Guest (5): Next one?

yataḥ pravṛttir bhūtānāṁ yena sarvam idaṁ tatam sva-karmaṅā tam abhyarcya siddhiṁ vindati mānavaḥ [Bg 18.46]

Prabhupāda: Sarva-karmaṅā?

Guest (5): Sva-karmaṅā tam abhyarcya. [pronounces incorrectly]

Prabhupāda: Vaca?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: Abhyarcya.

Prabhupāda: Abhyarcya, that is the important word. Sarva-karmaṅā tam abhyarcya. Whatever engagement you may have, with that engagement you abhyarcya, just worship Him.

Guest (5): Tam abhyarcya.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Abhyarcya means worshiping.

Guest (5): Tam abhyarcya.

Prabhupāda: Tam abhyarcya, yes. So tam, the Supreme, He who worshiped. And He is the Supreme. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg 7.7].

[O conqueror of wealth [Arjuna], there is no Truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread.]

So in any position, if you worship Kṛṣṅa, then it is all right.

Guest (5): But is that correct?

Prabhupāda: That is the correct, yes.

Guest (5): So after giving all this in the chapter eighteen, then He points out that despite all these things.

Prabhupāda: No, the thing is that the best thing is sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg 18.66].

Guest (5): ...mām ekaṁ śaraṅaṁ vraja.

Prabhupāda: But if you cannot do that, then in your position you can also abhyarcya, you can worship Him. And especially in this age, whatever position you are, you can chant Hare Kṛṣṅa. That is abhyarcyana. He Kṛṣṅa, he hari.

Guest (5): Worship Him.

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is worship. This is worshiping. "Engage me in Your service." Just like Haridāsa Ṭhākura. He was simply chanting. He was doing nothing. So simply... You are engaged as professor. You go on with your professorship, but chant Hare Kṛṣṅa. Where is the loss? Rather, your students will learn, "Oh, he is such a big professor, he is chanting. Let me chant." You'll be preaching at the same time.

Guest (5): I'm a bureaucrat, no longer a professor.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be... Because yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas lokas tad anuvartate [Bg 3.21].

[Whatever action is performed by a great man, common men follow in his footsteps. And whatever standards he sets by exemplary acts, all the world pursues.]

If a chief man practices something, the followers also practice. So a businessman, professor, scientist, philosopher, they chant the holy name of God, there is no taxation, no income tax, but the income is very good. [laughter] So why people do not do it?

Guest (5): [Sanskrit]

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is explained by Caitanya,

nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija-sarva-śaktis tatrārpitā niyamitaḥ smaraṅe na kālaḥ etādṛśī tava kṛpā bhagavān mamāpi durdaivam īdṛśam ihājani nānurāgaḥ [Cc.Antya 20.16, Śikṣāṣṭaka 2]

The holy name of God is so powerful, as good as God. Nāmnām akāri bahudhā, He has got thousands of names, hundreds of names, and each name is invested with the power of God Himself. So in this age this chanting of holy name of God is recommended, I can take advantage of it, but I am so unfortunate I have no inclination. So easy thing, so still I am so unfortunate I do not wish to take the name of God. This is stated by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Etādṛśi tava kṛpā bhagavān mamāpi: "Bhagavān, my Lord, You are so merciful that I can be direct connection with You simply by chanting Your holy name. You have given this facility in this age, and still I am so unfortunate I am not inclined." Tam abhyarcya. We are not inclined to worship. That is the defect. When there is question of worshiping Him, so many things we bring in, not to worship Him, just to counteract the proposal. Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ [Bg 9.34], so we bring all kinds of argument how to not to become a bhakta. That is our misfortune. He says, "You become My devotee," and we are putting arguments, how not to become His devotee. That is our misfortune. We bring all arguments. This is misfortune.

Hari-śauri: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it's 8:30. Want to finish up?

Prabhupāda: What is your question?

Vipina: I was talking to Dr. Diksha and I was explaining to him that if he was unable to chant or to become a full-time devotee, that your program for a person in that condition of life was something like Life Membership program, whereby he could become a member of the Society, maintain his occupational duty, but become a member and take books and read and try to understand gradually that way. Is that satisfactory, if they can maybe do that much, that would be..., some way they would be serving Kṛṣṅa to your satisfaction?

[Prabhupāda laughs]

Prabhupāda: Yes, we are taking so much labor in writing books. If somebody reads, certainly that is satisfaction. [laughter]

Rūpānuga: It is to their benefit, Śrīla Prabhupāda, if they read.

Prabhupāda: Yes, I am writing for reading by others.

Rūpānuga: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

[aside:] What time is the initiation? [indistinct] [break]

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṅa: ...our temple early in the morning at about seven o'clock Śrīla Prabhupāda will deliver a lecture and also there will be a sacrifice, very ancient sacrifice performed, which is formal initiation of becoming a disciple of a spiritual master, and you are welcome to come by. It is a very colorful and beautiful ceremony. So this will take place tomorrow morning at 7 a.m. here in the temple. Hare Kṛṣṅa.

Rūpānuga: Thank you. Haribol! [end]

Evening Darśana

Referenced verses