Conversation

Meeting with Mr. Suraj Narayan Raju, Endowments Commissioner

Prabhupāda: But we are so...

[aside:] You can keep it there now. Keep.

So we do not believe in these things, that there is Bhagavān, and Bhagavān comes, He has got a mission. Do you believe in these things? Frankly speaking, do you believe in these things?

Mr. Raju: We do. We do believe. We feel it also in our body.

Prabhupāda: Then you must act according to His mission. According to His mission. The mission is, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata [Bg 4.7]. When we are engaged in glāniḥ dharma, which is not dharma—cheating. Glāniḥ, glāniḥ. What is the glāniḥ?

Mr. Raju: Hatred. Hatred.

Prabhupāda: No. Glānir means which is abominable.

Mr. Raju: Abominable.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati [Bg 4.7]. So what is that glānir? Glānir means... Dharma means dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṅītam [SB 6.3.19].

[Real religious principles are enacted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Although fully situated in the mode of goodness, even the great ṛṣis who occupy the topmost planets cannot ascertain the real religious principles, nor can the demigods or the leaders of Siddhaloka, to say nothing of the asuras, ordinary human beings, Vidyādharas and Cāraṅas.]

In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, there is... Yamarāja said, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṅītam. Dharma cannot be manufactured by any man.

[aside:] You have got Sixth Canto?

Harikeśa: Sixth Canto, Third Chapter, nineteenth verse.

Prabhupāda: Yes, find this verse. Yamarāja said, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṅītam. Even the demigods, they cannot manufacture dharma.

Harikeśa:

dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṅītaṁ na vai vidur ṛṣayo nāpi devāḥ na siddha-mukhyā asurā manuṣyāḥ kuto nu vidyādhara-cāraṅādayaḥ [SB 6.3.19]

"Real religious principles are enacted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Although fully situated in the mode of goodness, even the great ṛṣis who occupy the topmost planets cannot ascertain the real religious principles, nor can the demigods or the leaders of Siddhaloka, to say nothing of the asuras, ordinary human beings, Vidyādharas and Cāraṅas."

Prabhupāda: Nobody can. This is the principle. So when so many rascal dharma is introduced, that is dharmasya glāniḥ. So we must know this. Then we can understand what is the mission of Bhagavān. When rascals are introducing so-called so many dharmas, that is dharmasya glāniḥ. Do you accept or not?

Mr. Raju: Yes, we accept.

Prabhupāda: Therefore, Bhagavān concludes at the end, "You rascal, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṅam [Bg 18.66]." This is dharma. To surrender to the Lord, that is dharma. And in another place, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje [SB 1.2.6].

[The supreme occupation [dharma] for all humanity is that by which men can attain to loving devotional service unto the transcendent Lord. Such devotional service must be unmotivated and uninterrupted to completely satisfy the self.]

Without this, all cheating. If there is no bhakti, surrender to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, all these kind of dharmas, they're all cheating. Therefore in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is said, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra [SB 1.1.2].

[Completely rejecting all religious activities which are materially motivated, this Bhāgavata Purāṅa propounds the highest truth, which is understandable by those devotees who are fully pure in heart. The highest truth is reality distinguished from illusion for the welfare of all. Such truth uproots the threefold miseries. This beautiful Bhāgavatam, compiled by the great sage Vyāsadeva [in his maturity], is sufficient in itself for God realization. What is the need of any other scripture? As soon as one attentively and submissively hears the message of Bhāgavatam, by this culture of knowledge the Supreme Lord is established within his heart.]

On this, Śrīdhara Svāmī has commented, atra mokṣa vañcha api nirastam. Dharma artha kāma mokṣa [SB 4.8.41, Cc. Ādi 1.90].

[Any person who desires the fruits of the four principles religiosity, economic development, sense gratification and, at the end, liberation, should engage himself in the devotional service of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, for worship of His lotus feet yields the fulfillment of all of these.]

So according to this principle, they're all cheating. So-called religious system, artha, economic development, sense gratification. Just like that we have created so many social dharma: saṁsāra-dharma, gṛhastha-dharma, this dharma, that dharma. So in that way, they're all cheating. Therefore, our request is that yajñārthe karmaṅaḥ anyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ [Bg 3.9].

[Work done as a sacrifice for Viṣṅu has to be performed, otherwise work binds one to this material world. Therefore, O son of Kuntī, perform your prescribed duties for His satisfaction, and in that way you will always remain unattached and free from bondage.]

In the Bālajī's temple, mostly poor cultivators, I have seen, they go. And they want to give something to the Lord. Yajñārthe. So the karmīs, they're advised, yat karoṣi kuruṣva tad mad arpaṅam, "Give Me." So these karmīs, somehow or other, by their great fortune they're giving something to the Lord. Yajñārthe. [someone enters] Aiye. That money should not be utilized for any other purpose. That is our mission. It must be utilized for the purpose to fulfill the mission of the Lord. Mission of the Lord is sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṅam [Bg 18.66]: how people can be trained up to give up all these nonsensical type of dharma, and how to become a devotee of Lord. For this purpose this money should be spent. Then it will be all right.

Mr. Raju: Mostly it is utilized for that. Almost completely. Only one or two is mere, what is called, charity. The industry... There's been a wrong impression that we are working directly with industry.

Prabhupāda: No, no. That is... It should be utilized simply for the purpose of awakening the devotional, what is called, inspiration. For no other purpose. Just like in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is said, nitya-siddha kṛṣṅa-bhakti. Kṛṣṅa-bhakti, nitya-siddha. This is our natural. Just like these Europeans and Americans, they have become kṛṣṅa-bhaktas. So what business they had to do with Kṛṣṅa? They're coming from Christian family, Jewish families, or some of them Muhammadan family. So what they have got to do with Kṛṣṅa? They haven't got to do anything with Kṛṣṅa. So how they have become a kṛṣṅa-bhakta? Even the... Just like he is coming from Parsi family, he is coming from Jewish family, he is coming from Christian family, he is coming from Europe, he is coming from America. So what they have got to do with Kṛṣṅa? We Indians, or Hindus, we may have some concern with Kṛṣṅa, but what they have got? They haven't got anything to do with Kṛṣṅa. Now you pay them one lakh of rupees and ask them, "You become again Christian. You become again Parsi." Just see. Make them again Christian. Practical. These are young boys. You ask them that "I'll give you good girl, I'll give you good money. You give up this Kṛṣṅa consciousness, come here." Ask them. Make a test. They'll refuse; they'll kick out. How they have become? Therefore it is a fact, as it is stated in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta, kṛṣṅa-bhakti nitya-siddha. Everyone has got kṛṣṅa-bhakti eternally. It is not artificial. They have not become kṛṣṅa-bhakta artificially. It is the eternal link that has been awakened.

Mr. Raju: There's no doubt of that, Swāmījī. Let us say there are hundred leprosy patients. There are one thousand orphans. We put them there, give them food, and make them pray to Kṛṣṅa...

Prabhupāda: Well, you are... They are mistaken. But if you have to awaken kṛṣṅa-bhakti, why you go to the lepers?

Mr. Raju: No, they have come here. They are all there in the temple. They are not allowing others to pray properly. They are all, one thousand... In the past...

Prabhupāda: We have no objection, that..., because our principle is kṛṣṅa-bhakti nitya-siddha. So kṛṣṅa-bhakti is there in everyone. So leper and non-leper. Just like our Vivekananda, he took up daridra-nārāyaṅa. This is an absurd proposition. Nārāyaṅa is never daridra. But if you put this argument, that Nārāyaṅa is everywhere, so if Nārāyaṅa is everywhere, why you take up only daridra-nārāyaṅa? Why not dhanī-nārāyaṅa also? If you have got so broad vision that Nārāyaṅa is everywhere, therefore we see everyone, so why you particularly take the daridra-nārāyaṅa? Similarly, kṛṣṅa-bhakti is everywhere. It is in the leper or non-leper. So why should we take particularly the leper? So that is outwardly a social service, that they are taking care of the leper. So if that vision, it will not be right. Kṛṣṅa-bhakti even requires... Even a karmī like big, big owner of factories, he's more diseased than the leper, because he has no kṛṣṅa-bhakti. So we have to take care of the leper and the richest man also if he has no kṛṣṅa-bhakti.

Mr. Raju: That also. That also.

Prabhupāda: No, therefore we should not make any distinction that only the lepers will be taken care of.

Mr. Raju: Again, [Hindi] a rich man or somebody comes, prays...

Prabhupāda: Everyone is more than leper.

Mr. Raju: He takes prasāda in the temple, he goes. But this man is not allowed. He can't come. Therefore God goes to him.

Prabhupāda: We have to take... You cannot manufacture where God goes. You should have to take lesson from God. That is one thing. If we manufacture ideas, that will never be successful. That will never be successful. Don't manufacture ideas. If you want to be servant of God, you must take instruction from God. That is wanted. You cannot manufacture idea, that "God wants this." So first of all try to understand what is God's mission. God's mission is, it is clearly said, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati [Bg 4.7]. So, more or less, everyone is entangled with this glānir dharma. They have manufactured. Just like the demigod worship. This is a glānir dharma. Kṛṣṅa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṅaṁ vraja [Bg 18.66]. And Kṛṣṅa clearly says, kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajante anya-devatāḥ [Bg 7.20].

So if you want to utilize, people are giving in good faith, Bālajī, Kṛṣṅa, their hard-earned money, whatever we are giving something. Yajña, that is wanted. Yajñārthāt karmaṅo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ [Bg 3.9].

That money should not be utilized for any other purpose except yajña. First of all, you have to decide like that. Then we can give you direction. First of all, you have to decide that this money, not a single farthing should be spent for any other purpose than performing yajña. Then we can give you right direction. And if you have plan to utilize this money for any other purpose, that is not Kṛṣṅa's mission; that is your mission. So first of all you have to decide whether you are going to execute Kṛṣṅa's mission or your mission. Kṛṣṅa's mission is very clearly defined. It is there. Everything is declared there in the Bhagavad-gītā. We can do it very nicely. But if you want to do any other mission, then you can do. You are government, you are in power, you can do that. But that will not be pleasing to Kṛṣṅa. He has got a mission. That is stated: dharmasya glānir bhavati. So any dharma, so-called dharma, which does not awaken their Kṛṣṅa consciousness is glāniḥ. Kṛṣṅa does not want that. If you're against the will of Kṛṣṅa, against the mission of Kṛṣṅa, if you want to do something, you can do it. People are doing so many things. That is also mentioned by Kṛṣṅa.

Harikeśa: Iti te jñānam... [Bg 18.63].

Prabhupāda: No. That one verse is that one does not... Kṛṣṅa's mission is that "Surrender unto Me." Now, who does not surrender to Kṛṣṅa? That is stated by Kṛṣṅa:

na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ māyayāpahṛta-jñānā āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ [Bg 7.15]

[Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, lowest among mankind, whose knowledge is stolen by illusion, and who partake of the atheistic nature of demons, do not surrender unto Me.]

Anyone who does not surrender to Kṛṣṅa, he must be grouped either duṣkṛtina, mūḍha, narādhama, māyayāpahṛta-jñāna, āsuraṁ bhāvam. We do that. Anyone who does not surrender to Kṛṣṅa, he must be grouped among them. And for them, what is their... Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān kṣipāmy ajasram.

[aside:] Find out this verse, tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān...

If anyone is envious of Kṛṣṅa, then what is his punishment?

Harikeśa:

tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān saṁsāreṣu narādhamān kṣipāmy ajasram aśubhān āsurīṣv eva yoniṣu [Bg 16.19]

Prabhupāda: This is their punishment.

Harikeśa: "Those who are envious and mischievous, who are the lowest among men, are cast by Me into the ocean of material existence into various demoniac species of life."

Prabhupāda: And next verse?

Harikeśa:

āsurīṁ yonim āpannā mūḍhā janmani janmani mām aprāpyaiva kaunteya tato yānty adhamāṁ gatim [Bg 16.20]

"Attaining repeated birth amongst the species of demoniac life, such persons can never approach Me. Gradually they sink down to the most abominable type of existence."

Prabhupāda: So this is my request, that our money... There is nothing "our money"; everything Kṛṣṅa's. But we are thinking, because we are asuric. So asuras think like that. Just like Kaṁsa, Hiraṅyakaśipu: "Hah!" Rāvaṅa: "Hah! What is Rāma?" That is asura's. They think like that, and that is asuric. But otherwise, īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1].

[Everything animate or inanimate that is within the universe is controlled and owned by the Lord. One should therefore accept only those things necessary for himself, which are set aside as his quota, and one should not accept other things, knowing well to whom they belong.]

Everything belongs to Kṛṣṅa. Therefore yajña is advised. The sooner you hand over Kṛṣṅa's property to Kṛṣṅa, it is good for you.

Mr. Raju: Swāmījī, we are karma-yogīs. We start the day with surrendering to God and asking Him to show us the way. Beyond that, I don't know what our duty...

Prabhupāda: But a karma-yogī, why you should take Kṛṣṅa's money for karma?

Mr. Raju: For what? [Hindi] That is for...

Prabhupāda: That is the...

Mr. Raju: It is not used. As you have correctly said, that way only it is used. There may be different...

Prabhupāda: No, the first thing is that if you decide that Kṛṣṅa's money should be utilized for Kṛṣṅa's mission, so Kṛṣṅa's mission is this, that sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṅaṁ vraja [Bg 18.66]. You have to bring them to the sense of Kṛṣṅa consciousness. And there is a process. You cannot manufacture that process. You have to take the process from Kṛṣṅa. That Kṛṣṅa says: man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg 18.65].

[Always think of Me and become My devotee. Worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend.]

Four things. You have to teach people how he can think of Kṛṣṅa, man-manā. Then the mission is there. That is Kṛṣṅa also. Kṛṣṅa says,

satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ namasyantaś ca māṁ bhaktyā nitya-yuktā upāsate [Bg 9.14]

[Always chanting My glories, endeavoring with great determination, bowing down before Me, these great souls perpetually worship Me with devotion.]

You have to teach them like that. Satataṁ kīrtayanto mām, as we are doing. We're always chanting Hare Kṛṣṅa. But if you manufacture in your own way, that you can do. Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ na sa siddhim avāpnoti [Bg 16.23].

[But he who discards scriptural injunctions and acts according to his own whims attains neither perfection, nor happiness, nor the supreme destination.]

That will never be successful. If you have to execute the mission of Kṛṣṅa, you have to take instruction of Kṛṣṅa and do it rigidly. Then you'll be successful. Kṛṣṅa..., Kṛṣṅa's mission is that one must know Kṛṣṅa and surrender to Him. This is mission. Kṛṣṅa does not say that by karma-yoga one can understand Him. Kṛṣṅa says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ [Bg 18.55].

[One can understand the Supreme Personality as He is only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of the Supreme Lord by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God.]

You cannot say, "We are karma-yogīs." Karma-yogī means the third class. He's karmī, and little mixed up with bhakti. Adulterated. Jñāna-yogī, he's not a bhakta. He's jñānī, but just to bring him gradually, a little bhakti. You see? And real bhakti is anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam [Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11].

[One should render transcendental loving service to the Supreme Lord Kṛṣṅa favorably and without desire for material profit or gain through fruitive activities or philosophical speculation. That is called pure devotional service.]

When it will be tintless of any karma and jñāna, then it is pure bhakti. That is Kṛṣṅa's mission. Sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg 18.66]. Not mixed up with jñāna, karma, yoga. Otherwise, how Kṛṣṅa says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti? He could have said, "Any way," as these rascals say, "Any way go, you will get Kṛṣṅa." That Kṛṣṅa does not say. Kṛṣṅa says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ [Bg 18.55]. Manuṣyāṅāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid vetti māṁ tattvataḥ [Bg 7.3].

[Out of many thousands among men, one may endeavor for perfection, and of those who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth.]

Janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ [Bg 4.9].

[One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna.]

So that tattva, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ. So we have to take this. You manufacture in your own way, and still you carry out the mission of Kṛṣṅa—that is contradiction. You have to take the lesson from Kṛṣṅa. Then it will be successful. Karma-yoga is for the third class. They are addicted to karma, a little bhakti, that's all. That is not pure. Jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam [Cc Madhya 19.167].

[When first-class devotional service develops, one must be devoid of all material desires, knowledge obtained by monistic philosophy, and fruitive action. The devotee must constantly serve Kṛṣṅa favorably, as Kṛṣṅa desires.]

When there is not a tinge of karma and jñāna, that is pure bhakti. That is Kṛṣṅa's mission.

So everything is there; direction is there. We can guide you—not according to our whims, but according to śāstra. And if you agree to accept, then we can also cooperate with you. But if you manufacture your own way, then how we can possibly... Kṛṣṅa's mission is this: yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati [Bg 4.7]. Except kṛṣṅa-bhakti, bhaktyā, everything is glāniḥ. All glāniḥ. And that can be awakened, kṛṣṅa-bhakti. Just like these boys are doing. That is enunciated in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta: nitya-siddha kṛṣṅa—everyone has kṛṣṅa-bhakti. You have to awaken simply. Nitya-siddha kṛṣṅa-prema sādhya kabhu naya [Cc Madhya 22.107].

[Pure love for Kṛṣṅa is eternally established in the hearts of the living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source. When the heart is purified by hearing and chanting, this love naturally awakens.]

It is not artificial. Śravaṅādi-śuddha-citte karaye udaya. If the hearing about Kṛṣṅa is pure... That is also confirmed in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam:

śṛṅvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṅaḥ puṅya-śravaṅa-kīrtanaḥ hṛdy antaḥ stho hy abhadrāṅi vidhunoti suhṛt satām [SB 1.2.17]

[Śrī Kṛṣṅa, the Personality of Godhead, who is the Paramātmā [Supersoul] in everyone's heart and the benefactor of the truthful devotee, cleanses desire for material enjoyment from the heart of the devotee who has developed the urge to hear His messages, which are in themselves virtuous when properly heard and chanted.]

naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā bhagavaty naiṣṭhikī bhakti uttama-śloke bhavati naiṣṭhikī. [SB 1.2.18]

[By regular attendance in classes on the Bhāgavatam and by rendering of service to the pure devotee, all that is troublesome to the heart is almost completely destroyed, and loving service unto the Personality of Godhead, who is praised with transcendental songs, is established as an irrevocable fact.]

tato rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye ceta etair anāviddhaṁ sthitas sattve prasīdati [SB 1.2.19]

[As soon as irrevocable loving service is established in the heart, the effects of nature's modes of passion and ignorance, such as lust, desire and hankering, disappear from the heart. Then the devotee is established in goodness, and he becomes completely happy.]

So we have to follow this formula. This is śāstra-viddhi: one step to another. And if you don't care for the śāstra-viddhi, we can do that, but na siddhiṁ na avāpnoti: it will never be successful. It will be a show, big show, but there will be no siddhi.

[pause]

Prabhupāda: If you want to do according to the direction of Kṛṣṅa, our cent per cent cooperation will be there. We'll not touch a single farthing of your money, but we can give you direction, "Spend it like that." And government men, you can see that we are not touching a single farthing of your money, but it is being spent for Kṛṣṅa's mission. That you can believe. It is the duty of the government men to see that people may not misrepresent. That is the Vedic injunction. Pṛthu Mahārāja was to see that a brāhmaṅa is doing, acting like brāhmaṅa, kṣatriya is doing like kṣatriya. So it is government's duty to see that Bālajī's money, Kṛṣṅa's money, is to the farthing spent for His mission. That is your duty. That is government's duty, that nothing is misused, nothing is misrepresented. But we know how to execute the mission of Kṛṣṅa. Everyone can know, because direction is there. It is not a secret thing. It is open secret. But you have to act accordingly. That requires training. And so far my experience goes, the whole world will take to Kṛṣṅa consciousness. Unfortunately, I am struggling single-handed. And they are criticizing me in the Parliament. You have seen the recent article Blitz against me? What is that heading? "Ungodly face." I am doing ungodly? But they are advertising like that, trying to make me unpopular. The Māyāvādīs, they say that Bhaktivedanta Swami is ruining Hinduism. They are saying like that. [Hindi] So I am being criticized in Parliament, I am criticized by the so-called jagad-gurus who have never seen what is jagat. And so on, so on.

Mr. Raju: No, for a country suffering from multiplicity of gods, Hinduism, you are doing a very great service, asking them to concentrate on Kṛṣṅa.

Prabhupāda: That is... Only God. Kṛṣṅas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28].

[All of the above-mentioned incarnations are either plenary portions or portions of the plenary portions of the Lord, but Lord Śrī Kṛṣṅa is the original Personality of Godhead. All of them appear on planets whenever there is a disturbance created by the atheists. The Lord incarnates to protect the theists.]

Mr. Raju: How you are enlightening them, it is a very great service. No doubt about that actually. They don't know. And you are making the man, the human being, a servant of that God [indistinct], divinity.

Prabhupāda: This is not my manufacture. Śāstra says, kṛṣṅas tu bhagavān svayam.

Mr. Raju: They have said so many things in the name of śāstra. They have said so many things in the name of śāstra. That you are making it one is very good.

Prabhupāda: No, those who are approved śāstra is accepted by the ācāryas. Śāstra, which is accepted by the ācārya, that is śāstra. You cannot make. As you cannot manufacture religion, you cannot manufacture śāstras. Approved by the ācāryas. Ācāryopāsanam. Therefore Kṛṣṅa says also that you should know from the ācārya. Everyone, they are preaching Bhagavad-gītā with the purpose of killing Kṛṣṅa. Everyone. The politicians, the scholars, the rascals and everyone. The main purpose is how to kill Kṛṣṅa. In Bombay I have got a very big friend, you know him. I do not wish to disclose his name. He has set aside ten lakhs of rupees from preaching Gītā. But he wants Gītā without Kṛṣṅa. Rāma without Sītā. Rāvaṅa's policy. Take away Sītā; Rāma will remain alone. So take away Gītā and cut Kṛṣṅa. But I cannot make any compromise. I shall... My life is ended; now I'm eighty-one. I do not know... But so long I shall live, I shall make no compromise, kṛṣṅas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28].

Dṛḍha-vrata. And that is a fact. Why shall I mislead people? They are searching after God, what is God. Here is God. Why don't you take it? See His activities. Aiśvaryasya samagrasya vīryasya yaśasaḥ [Viṣṅu Purāṅa 6.5.47].

[Full wealth, strength, fame, beauty, knowledge and renunciation—these are the six opulences of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.]

Tally with the formula of God, you see Kṛṣṅa is there. Kṛṣṅas tu bhagavān svayam. So whatever teeny effort I have got, I shall try to establish temples of Kṛṣṅa all over the world with my teeny income. I have got book sales. Kṛṣṅa has given me very good chance. It is beyond any dream. We are selling books sixty thousand dollars daily.

Indian man (1): Six lakhs about.

Mahāṁsa: Thirty thousand dollars.

Indian man (1): Sixty thousand dollars.

Mahāṁsa: Yes, daily.

Prabhupāda: And we are known the topmost publisher of religious and philosophical books in the world. And we are approved..., our books are approved by the greatest learned scholars of all universities. Because they are seeing a new light. No hodgepodge philosophy. India also, wherever we are going. Now he has come... Within how many days? Within a month.

Prabhaviṣṅu: Yes, one month, in Uttar Pradesh...

Prabhupāda: He has got seventy standing orders. Our books are, say, eighty. So eighty books, say, average five dollars. So eighty books, five dollars means...

Prabhaviṣṅu: Four hundred dollars.

Prabhupāda: Four hundred dollars. Such seventy orders.

Mr. Raju: Four hundred by seventy.

Prabhupāda: He has secured order in one month, seventy orders. In one place. Standing orders. "Whatever is published, give us, and then others, when they will be published, send also." They have not seen even the books.

Tirupati Balajī Temple manager: This is practical pracāra, giving of books.

Prabhupāda: No librarian, no university, no scholar, no professor is refusing. As soon as we go, "Oh, yes, bring. We shall take." So I am bringing money from the foreign countries by my selling books, and they are criticizing me that I am CIA. [laughter] Just see the fun. And there is nobody to give me protection.

Tirupati Balajī Temple manager: Not Lord giving protection? [laughter]

Prabhupāda: No, Lord giving, giving. That I am confident. Because they are envious, "How Bhaktivedanta Swami is getting so much money? He's paying crores and crores. There must be some political..." As they are getting from Russia. But actually, I am selling. I am working night, writing these books, and these boys are helping me to sell it. I am getting enough money to spend it. What is my fault? For Kṛṣṅa's sake we have sacrificed everything, our life and everything, and Kṛṣṅa is giving us money and we are spending it, and they are criticizing in the Parliament. This is my misfortune. I don't take it as misfortune. Because asuras are always there. Even Kṛṣṅa's time.

Mr. Raju: They are criticizing, but not...

Prabhupāda: Because we are getting so much money. For this temple we have to spend..., ten lakhs?

Mahāṁsa: Twelve lakhs.

Prabhupāda: Twelve lakhs. So by selling my books. And I have sent him more than four lakhs, five lakhs from foreign countries. This is my fault. Similarly, in Bombay we are spending every month seven lakhs regularly. That is coming from foreign countries. And they are thinking that I'm taking bribe and acting as CIA. Just see. And CIA have become Vaiṣṅavas with long śikhā and giving up all facilities of life, and they are dancing with the CIA. People have no common sense that CIA agent could stay in a nice hotel and enjoy life. Why so much vairāgya? Even my Godbrothers said that American government has given me two crores of rupees. Now we are planning to have a temple in Māyāpur where... What is, what is the economic estimates, where we shall spend how much money monthly?

Harikeśa: Two hundred thousand dollars monthly.

Prabhupāda: Two hundred thousand dollars monthly.

Mr. Raju: [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: Two hundred thousand. [break] Nobody will be able to check it. He'll go on. That is Kṛṣṅa. Here is Dictaphone. I work at night. I get up at half past twelve, one, and I write books. And daytime I'm engaged. And daily either ten page, twenty page written, that is sent to Los Angeles. You have seen our Press? And they take care. How our books printed, have you got that film?

Mahāṁsa: I have it in 16mm. Yes.

Prabhupāda: Why don't you show?

Mahāṁsa: Just now?

Prabhupāda: Yes. It will take little...

Hari-śauri: [indistinct background conversation about projectors]

Mahāṁsa: I don't have a Fairchild. I have it in 16mm film.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. But the Press...

Mahāṁsa: Yes, the Press film.

Prabhupāda: You can show, they'll be... [background talk about projectors] How in the American industrial process we are printing our books. I made the Book Trust, sixty thousand dollars they are selling. So as author, I could have derived from them at least six thousand, ten percent minimum. Six thousand dollars per day. Six thousand dollars means sixty thousand rupees. That could have been my daily income. But I take little khicuṛi from them, that's all. [Harikeśa laughing]

Indian man: Two crores per year, it comes to... Mr. [indistinct], he was last month at Los Angeles.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

[pause]

Prabhupāda: Our farming projects, very successful. Now here, Badrukajī is also giving us some land. Aiye. [someone arrives] [background conversation]

Hari-śauri: Basu Ghosh.

Prabhupāda: So we have got big program. Any amount of money you bring to us, we shall spend it immediately.

[background conversation as devotees set up film] [pause] [loud kīrtana in background] [break]

Prabhupāda: There is a logic, andha-paṅgu-nyāya. One man is blind, another man is lame. Both are useless. But when they combined together the lame man was taken by the blind man. So the lame man has got eyes, he was giving direction: "Go this way." So both their work was done. So I say that India is lame and America is blind. Let us combine together. Then we can give a great culture for the benefit of the whole human society. India has no money—lame. And they have got money, but they have no knowledge. So let us combine together. This is logic. Andha-paṅgu-nyāya.

So by this cooperation they have... When I was in India I published three parts of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam with great difficulty. And now, since I have gone there, I am publishing every month a book. So on account of their cooperation we are able to publish so many books and organize the sale all over the world. But it is true that this culture is very much welcome all over the world. That is happening. That is real execution of the mission of Kṛṣṅa. Not to keep Kṛṣṅa within the boundaries of certain areas. Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā. Sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya [Bg 14.4]. He's the father of all living entities. They should know it.

We have got many other films also—how we are giving protection to the cows in different farms, how we are getting sumptuous milk. Two years ago there was an article in the Navabharat Times in Delhi, big article, one full page, first page. And the heading was that New Vrindavan [Hindi]. They gave this heading. And they gave all details how the use of the land. New Vrindavan in Virginia, we have got one thousand acre of land, and we are utilizing it. How they are living peacefully. So we want to make an example here with this six hundred acres of land, if it is given to us. Kṛṣṅa's formula is there: annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Produce sufficient quantity of anna. Everyone will be satisfied. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Kṛṣṅa never says by factory bhavanti bhūtāni. [laughter]

annād bhavanti bhūtāni parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ yajñād bhavati parjanyo yajñaḥ karma-samudbhavaḥ [Bg 3.14]

[All living bodies subsist on food grains, which are produced from rain. Rains are produced by performance of yajña [sacrifice], and yajña is born of prescribed duties.]

Yajñārthāt karmaṅo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ [Bg 3.9].

This formula should be... That is Kṛṣṅa's mission. Kṛṣṅa's mission... What to speak of Kṛṣṅa's mission, Kṛṣṅa [Hindi]. Bās. [Hindi] Kṛṣṅa, to carry personally, [Hindi], aham ādir hi devānām [Bg 10.2]. [Hindi] Kṛṣṅa nirākāra. He's personally speaking. And Vyāsadeva writes, bhagavān uvāca. [Hindi]

Tirupati Balajī Temple manager: [Hindi] [break]

Prabhupāda: Idaṁ jñānam ākhyātam?

Harikeśa: Iti te jñānam ākhyātam.

Prabhupāda: Iti te jñānam ākhyātam...

Harikeśa: Guhyād guhyataraṁ mayā. I'll get it.

iti te jñānam ākhyātaṁ guhyād guhyataraṁ mayā vimṛśyaitad aśeṣeṅa yathecchasi tathā kuru [Bg 18.63]

"Thus I have explained to you the most confidential of all knowledge. Deliberate on this fully and then do what you wish to do."

Prabhupāda: Just see. Kṛṣṅa has explained everything, all confidential. Now consider about it, think about it, and do whatever you like. Yathecchasi tathā. The liberty is there. Whatever you like, you can do. Kṛṣṅa will not force. He can force, but He does not interfere with little liberty. Then he becomes stone. Living entity has got little liberty because he is part and parcel of Kṛṣṅa. When Arjuna was decided, naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā, Kṛṣṅa gave him liberty: yathecchasi tathā kuru [Bg 18.63]. But he voluntarily accepted, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava. Find out.

Harikeśa:

arjuna uvāca naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā tvat prasādān mayācyuta sthito 'smi gata-sandehaḥ kariṣye vacanaṁ tava [Bg 18.73]

Prabhupāda: This is real religion.

Harikeśa: "Arjuna said: My dear Kṛṣṅa, O infallible one, my illusion is now gone. I have regained my memory by Your mercy, and I am now firm and free from doubt and am prepared to act according to Your instructions."

Prabhupāda: That's it. Yes, that is real [indistinct]. That is translated in Bengali,

nitya-siddha kṛṣṅa-prema sādhya kabhu naya śravaṅādi-śuddha-citte karaye udaya [Cc Madhya 22.107]

"Now I am prepared, naṣṭo mohaḥ, now my illusion is over." [indistinct] That is perfection. Kṛṣṅa gives you liberty, whatever you like you do. But when you come to the conclusion, "No, I shall do what you say," that is perfection. I can do whatever I like. That liberty is there. But if I accept Kṛṣṅa's instruction, that is bhakti. Find out that verse, satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ [Bg 9.14].

Harikeśa:

satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ namasyantaś ca māṁ bhaktyā nitya-yuktā upāsate [Bg 9.14]

"Always chanting My glories, endeavoring with great determination, bowing down before Me, these great souls perpetually worship Me with devotion."

Prabhupāda: This is religion. They are mahātmās. Previous verse?

Harikeśa:

mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ bhajanty ananya-manaso jñātvā bhūtādim avyayam [Bg 9.13]

"O son of Pṛthā, those who are not deluded, the great souls, are under the protection of the divine nature. They are fully engaged in devotional service because they know Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, original and inexhaustible."

Prabhupāda: That is mahātmā. This is mahātmā. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha [Bg 9.13]. Find out this...

Harikeśa: Daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ bhajanty ananya-manaso jñātvā bhūtādim avyayam.

Prabhupāda: Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg 7.19].

Harikeśa:

bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ [Bg 7.19]

[After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.]

"After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare. [indistinct background conversation—very loud kīrtana]

Basu Ghosh: Śrīla Prabhupāda? This gentleman is the head of the Marwari community, Mr. Inani. They only speak Hindi. They would like to speak to you, but they don't understand English.

Prabhupāda: No, I can... [Hindi conversation] [break] Unless one is enthused, he cannot preach. It is not possible. I went there when I was about seventy years old. I was sitting in Vṛndāvana. So I thought that "My Guru Mahārāja wanted me; Caitanya Mahāprabhu wanted me. So in this old age, let me try." [indistinct] But by Kṛṣṅa's grace it became successful. Teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam, dadāmi buddhi-yogaṁ tam [Bg 10.10].

[To those who are constantly devoted and worship Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me.]

So there is good field for propagating this cult. See our young men, they are... [Hindi conversation] Juhu mai bara-sāhīb beef shop. [Hindi] And I inquired some of the Hindu boys that "Do you eat meat?" So they began to smile, then they accepted. [Hindi conversation]

[break] [Hindi] The platform is finished. [Hindi] Now, yathecchasi tathā kuru [Bg 18.63]. Yathecchasi, yathā icchasi tathā kuru.

Mr. Raju: No, we are ready for that. There is actually no difference at all than what you are saying. As a matter of fact, government is..., that's what I said, they have started their own society, the society of Kṛṣṅa bhaktas. [indistinct] This country, other countries... This country itself, it is such a great service.

Prabhupāda: Whole world will accept.

Mr. Raju: This country itself is such a great service. It will require miracle.

Prabhupāda: [Hindi] We can cooperate.

Mr. Raju: Unless you are so single-minded it can't be. Therefore you say there is no compromise. Otherwise, if there are compromises, there will be adjustments, it will lead to dilution. We understand.

Prabhupāda: Compromise [Hindi]. These boys, when they come for initiation, no compromise: "You have to do this. No illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, even up to smoking cigarettes or drinking tea, no gambling. If you accept, then you become my disciple." They accept. No compromise.

Mr. Raju: [indistinct] great coordination, because you are establishing a center here. That will be very good.

Prabhupāda: We are meant for this purpose, coordination, but if you take our... [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṅa. You have taken prasādam?

Mr. Raju: Yes, we did. [minister and temple manager leave] [break]

Prabhupāda: ...and he is such a big man that he goes above the ācāryas. Ati-buddhi. Ati-buddhi galaya dekhe[?]. "If one is overintelligent, hang him." That is a Bengali saying. Ati-buddhi galaya dekhe[?]. If one is unnecessarily overintelligent, just hang him with a rope in the neck. So he is ati-buddhi. Anyway, he was intelligent to purchase.

Mahāviṣṅu: [aside:] He thought that it would explain [indistinct]. [background conversation]

Prabhupāda: You have to read the subject matter. Even if he thinks that it is written by Bopadeva, such a great knowledge, one has to read. Such great knowledge is not possible by Bopadeva and unless he is incarnation of God, Vyāsadeva. It is said... [indistinct] Not this. [indistinct]

Mahāṁsa: Which volume do you want, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Second volume. Varīyān eṣa...

Harikeśa: Second Canto, Part One, verse one.

Prabhupāda: Find out this. Varīyān eṣa...

Harikeśa:

śrī-suka uvāca varīyān eṣa te praśnaḥ kṛto loka-hitaṁ nṛpa ātmavit-sammataḥ puṁsāṁ śrotavyādiṣu yaḥ paraḥ [SB 2.1.1]

Prabhupāda: Find out that verse when he says, "I have heard it from my father." Pariniṣṭhito 'pi nairguṅya. The verse begins pariniṣṭhito 'pi nairguṅya.

Harikeśa: Idaṁ bhāgavataṁ nāma? Idaṁ bhāgavatam...

Prabhupāda: No, no, before that. Pariniṣṭhito 'pi. The word begins with pariniṣṭhito. Idaṁ bhāgavataṁ nāma. No?

Harikeśa:

idaṁ bhāgavataṁ nāma purāṅaṁ brahma-sammitam adhītavān dvāparādau pitur dvaipāyanād aham [SB 1.3.40]

Prabhupāda: Ah, yes.

Harikeśa: "At the end of the Dvāpara-yuga, I studied this great supplement of Vedic literature of the name Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, which is equal to all the Vedas, from my father, Śrīla Dvaipāyana Vyāsadeva."

Prabhupāda: Just see. And these rascals say Bopadeva. The speaker of Bhāgavatam, he says that "I learned it from my father." His father is Vyāsadeva. And these rascals say Bopadeva. Just see. And they are posted in big post. With such nonsense knowledge, they are posted in big post. He does not know who is the author of Bhāgavata. Here it is distinctly said, "I learned it from my father." So his father is Vyāsadeva. You take this verse. If anyone says... So Śukadeva Gosvāmī is the speaker of Bhāgavata, he's admitting that "I've learned it from my father." And where the Bopadeva comes? Is that right?

Devotees: Yes, right.

Mahāviṣṅu: I was trying..., that if I began to oppose him, then he would not take the book.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Scholarly. Just present that here is the... Śukadeva Gosvāmī is the speaker of Bhāgavatam. He says, "I learned it from my father." And who is his father? Bopadeva or Vyāsadeva? This is going on. That is finished. [indistinct]

Mahāṁsa: Yes. Only two of them. One of them is here, but he was not at home, and the other one is out of station. So we'll get their signature when they come.

Prabhupāda: Two of them have signed.

Mahāṁsa: Yes. Hariprasad and Shrinivas, they have both signed. And Shri Krishnan-dyuta, he's here but he was not at home or something.

Prabhupāda: He'll sign?

Mahāṁsa: Yes. He will do whatever Hariprasad says, and Omkar Lal is the youngest brother, so he will also sign. Shall I keep this, or would you like to keep it here?

Prabhupāda: As you like. You can keep it.

Mahāṁsa: I'll lock it up.

Prabhupāda: What is that? Group? [indistinct comments by devotees] [pause]

Devotee: When I speak to some of these archaeologists that I meet, these professors, I ask them do they believe in the historical validity of this Mahābhārata and Bhāgavatam, and they say, "Personally, I believe, but officially we have to follow the archaeology, the techniques of measuring the time." So they have two faces: one for official life and one for personal life.

Prabhupāda: Duplicity. Duplicity.

Devotee: Yes. But there are some of them who are trying to prove also that the Mahābhārata was historical.

Prabhupāda: Mahābhārata, that very name suggests history. "Bigger India." Mahā means bigger, and Bhārata means India. Can you answer?

Prabhaviṣṅu: There is one verse in the Bhagavad-gītā, in Chapter Seven,

icchā-dveṣa samutthena dvandva-mohena bhārata sarva-bhūtāni saṁmohaṁ sarge yānti parantapa [Bg 7.27]

The meaning of this verse is that all living beings in the material world are born into delusion, overcome by the duality of desire and hate. So the fact is that the living entity, he desires to become great. Just like God is very great, so the living entity wants to imitate God, and therefore he comes in this material world, and he tries to become great and very powerful. This is desire. He tries to enjoy himself. And also icchā-dveṣa: he becomes envious of the Lord. Most people... Many people in the material world, they don't like to admit that God exists or that there is someone greater than themselves, because they think themselves to be the greatest. This is the disease of material life. But the cure for this disease that we have to accept...

Prabhupāda: You know that? There are so many rascals, they say, "I'm God." You know that? That is the problem. If somebody says, "I am God," is it a fact? But he says like that. He's such a rascal. That is the point.

Indian man: In spite of all falsehood, people accept him as God.

Prabhupāda: Rascals.

Indian man: Some people, they are [indistinct].

Basu Ghosh: This man has come to read the Oriya book. He can read Oriya. So... He wanted someone to translate. They have come.

Prabhupāda: Where is that Oriya book? Find out.

Harikeśa: The one Gargamuni...

Basu Ghosh: Yes. Orissan language, Orissan language.

Prabhupāda: [Hindi]

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: Do you think that realization is good, if anyone realizes that he is God? Do you think he has actually realized anything?

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: What is the proof? Everyone can say, "I am God," but where is the proof? He must act like God. If somebody says, "I am the richest man," simply this statement will do, or we must see how he is rich?

[pause]

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Give him.

Devotee: You can read.

Indian man: [indistinct] Founder Śrī Śrīmad A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda...

Prabhupāda: Hmm, [Hindi].

Indian man: [indistinct] ...founder Śrī Śrīmad... [break] [end]