Room conversation

Room Conversation with U.N. Doctor

Prabhupāda: Na taj janeṣu abhijñeṣu. Abhijñaḥ janeṣu, no attachment. Vyāsadeva, Śukadeva Gosvāmī, Nārada Muni, all the ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, they have no respect for these. They're creating their howling habits, that's all. How there can be peace?

Doctor: Now, when the Kṛṣṅa mantras...

Prabhupāda: Why do you say Kṛṣṅa panthā?

Doctor: No, mantras. I have come to mantra. Klīṁ kṛṣṅāya govindāya gopījanavallabhāya namaḥ. Is that not a very powerful Kṛṣṅa mantra?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Doctor: That is better than Hare Kṛṣṅa.

Prabhupāda: No. Hare Kṛṣṅa is therefore called mahā-mantra.

Doctor: Hare Kṛṣṅa, Hare Kṛṣṅa, Kṛṣṅa Kṛṣṅa, Hare Hare.

Prabhupāda: Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare.

Doctor: This you regard as the..., higher than any other...

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Therefore it is called mahā-mantra.

Doctor: But I was told that the Sudarśana-cakra words, mahāmāla parakramāyā maha patanivaya bhakta jane kalpanaya[?], that is a very powerful mantra.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything in relationship with God is powerful. But the name in this age is the most powerful: kīrtanād eva kṛṣṅasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet [SB 12.3.51].

[My dear King, although Kali-yuga is an ocean of faults, there is still one good quality about this age: Simply by chanting the Hare Kṛṣṅa mahā-mantra, one can become free from material bondage and be promoted to the transcendental kingdom.]

Doctor: And the word oṁ has been praised in the Upaniṣads, but...

Prabhupāda: Oṁ, veda, praṅavaḥ sarva-vedeṣu. Kṛṣṅa says that raso 'ham apsu kaunteya prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ praṅavaḥ sarva-vedeṣu [Bg 7.8].

[O son of Kuntī [Arjuna], I am the taste of water, the light of the sun and the moon, the syllable om in the Vedic mantras; I am the sound in ether and ability in man.]

Praṅava is oṁkāra. Sarva-vedeṣu, "That praṅava I am." That is sound representation of Kṛṣṅa.

Doctor: Then that one word as a mantra, is it not...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Doctor: ...the highest sort of word?

Prabhupāda: No. If you keep Kṛṣṅa, that "This praṅava is the sound representation of Kṛṣṅa," then it is all right. If you think it is separately powerful than Kṛṣṅa, that is nāma-aparādha.

Doctor: I understand.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If you accept it as Kṛṣṅa says, that "I am praṅava," if you do remember Kṛṣṅa by chanting oṁkāra, then it is all right.

Doctor: Otherwise, oṁ is only given to sannyāsīs?

Prabhupāda: Not necessarily. It is not mentioned there. Anyone chanting Vedic mantra, he has to begin with oṁkāra.

Doctor: All mantras begin with oṁ and end with oṁ.

Prabhupāda: Yes, oṁkāra. So sarva-vedeṣu.

Doctor: So all the essential Vedas.

Prabhupāda: Praṅavaḥ sarva-vedeṣu. This is beginning. Just like we take Bhāgavata, oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya.

Doctor:

etad akṣaraṁ brahma etad akṣaraṁ param etad akṣaraṁ jñātvā yati ceti...[?]

Prabhupāda: The difficulty is that we consider Kṛṣṅa is different from oṁkāra.

Doctor: That is a mistake.

Prabhupāda: That is a mistake.

Doctor: But then Kṛṣṅa is not different from Brahman.

Prabhupāda: If you take this oṁkāra as Kṛṣṅa's sound representation, then it is all right.

Doctor: Then it is as good as chanting "Kṛṣṅa."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Doctor: But it does not give...

Prabhupāda: But because Kṛṣṅa is remembered, if you take oṁkāra as Kṛṣṅa's sound representation then Kṛṣṅa is remembered.

Doctor: But Kṛṣṅa is three letters. Oṁ is one.

Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter.

Doctor: In the last minute when you are dying you can feel it, easily feel it.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṅa has many names. Kṛṣṅa has name Govinda. It is not three letters; it is more than that. Kṛṣṅa has so many thousands names. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta [Bs 5.33].

[I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who is inaccessible to the Vedas, but obtainable by pure unalloyed devotion of the soul, who is without a second, who is not subject to decay, is without a beginning, whose form is endless, who is the beginning, and the eternal puruṣa; yet He is a person possessing the beauty of blooming youth.]

So therefore Kṛṣṅa advises for the beginners, "Just try to remember Me in this way—raso 'ham apsu kaunteya [Bg 7.8]:

[O son of Kuntī [Arjuna], I am the taste of water, the light of the sun and the moon, the syllable om in the Vedic mantras; I am the sound in ether and ability in man.]

I am the taste of the water." The water you must be drinking twice, thrice, four times. So when you drink water, the taste satisfies your thirst. So if you simply remember, "This taste is Kṛṣṅa," that is Kṛṣṅa conscious.

Doctor: When you eat food, that also, the taste is Kṛṣṅa.

Prabhupāda: No, especially of the water. Kṛṣṅa is everything, but specifically He mentions, "The taste of the water I am." So you remember this.

Doctor: That's very interesting. So every time you drink water...

Prabhupāda: You can remember Kṛṣṅa. Where is the wrong, and what is the loss there? But you follow Kṛṣṅa's instruction. [someone enters] Yes, sit down. There is no difficulty to become Kṛṣṅa conscious. [microphone moves]

Doctor: Why do you tape record?

Hari-śauri: Everything Prabhupāda speaks we tape record, and then everyone in the world can listen.

Doctor: Someone said that the word oṁ is given to sannyāsīs, and it...

Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṅa does not say.

Doctor: It's not so.

Prabhupāda: "Someone," we don't take authority. "Someone." There are so many "someones." We don't care for them. What Kṛṣṅa says, we accept. That's all.

Doctor: But this Kaṭha-Upaniṣad praises oṁ.

etad ālambanaṁ śreṣṭhaṁ etad ālambanaṁ param etad ālambanaṁ jñātvā brahma-loke mahīyate

Prabhupāda: Yes, Upaniṣad is giving lesson, counterpart of this material world. Because... Just like you are stressing on oṁkāra because you do not give much importance to Kṛṣṅa. In the material world, Kṛṣṅa..., they think Kṛṣṅa is one of the historical person. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam [Bg 9.11].

[Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature and My supreme dominion over all that be.]

So Upaniṣad is teaching us in an indirect way about the importance of Kṛṣṅa. Upa-niṣat: to bring you nearby. Because you have got so many material conception, if we say that "Kṛṣṅa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead," you may not like it. Therefore... Oṁkāra is Kṛṣṅa. So you are giving lesson on oṁkāra. Although Kṛṣṅa and oṁkāra is not different, but you'll not like Kṛṣṅa. In your present position you'll not like Kṛṣṅa's name.

Doctor: Why?

Prabhupāda: No. Therefore you are stressing...

Doctor: No, I have read all this, and I am trying to reconcile.

Prabhupāda: Ah. So that is for the neophytes.

Doctor: The reconciliation is there. Oṁ is Kṛṣṅa, Kṛṣṅa is oṁ.

Prabhupāda: So if Kṛṣṅa is... If you are convinced, then where is the objection of Hare Kṛṣṅa?

Doctor: No, no.

Prabhupāda: Why should you bring so many objections?

Doctor: Kṛṣṅas tu bhagavān svayam.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a fact.

Doctor: Ete cāṁśa-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṅas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28].

[All of the above-mentioned incarnations are either plenary portions or portions of the plenary portions of the Lord, but Lord Śrī Kṛṣṅa is the original Personality of Godhead. All of them appear on planets whenever there is a disturbance created by the atheists. The Lord incarnates to protect the theists.]

Prabhupāda: But because I do not like, therefore Upaniṣads give another chance, that "Chant oṁkāra." That is the way. Because unless one is completely purified, he cannot understand Kṛṣṅa.

yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṅya-karmaṅām te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ [Bg 7.28]

[Persons who have acted piously in previous lives and in this life, whose sinful actions are completely eradicated and who are freed from the duality of delusion, engage themselves in My service with determination.]

Kṛṣṅa-bhajana is possible when one is completely free from all kinds of sinful activities. So not everyone is freed from sinful activities. Therefore the indirect way. Otherwise, Upaniṣad is Veda.

Doctor: Based on Vedas. Right.

Prabhupāda: Based. Kṛṣṅa says, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg 15.15].

[I am seated in everyone's heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness. By all the Vedas am I to be known; indeed I am the compiler of Vedānta, and I am the knower of the Vedas.]

By studying Vedas, Upaniṣads, if you do not understand Kṛṣṅa, that means your study is not complete. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg 7.19].

[After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.]

After studying this indirect information of Kṛṣṅa, when one is actually a learned, wise man, he surrenders to Kṛṣṅa. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ [Bg 7.19]. That is very rarely found. This is fact. So if one is intelligent, that if only the most intelligent person, after many, many births one has to surrender to Kṛṣṅa, why not do it immediately? Why shall I wait for many, many births? That is intelligence.

Doctor: Śrī-kṛṣṅas tu śaraṅaṁ mama.

Prabhupāda: Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg 7.19]. That is intelligence. But that intelligence is not possible for ordinary persons. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. One who gets this intelligence, such kind of mahātmā is very, very rarely found. To take it immediately, ah, kṛṣṅas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28], vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti, that is very difficult.

manuṣyāṅāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye yatatām api siddhānāṁ kaścin vetti māṁ tattvataḥ [Bg 7.3]

[Out of many thousands among men, one may endeavor for perfection, and of those who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth.]

It is not so easy to understand Kṛṣṅa or to accept Kṛṣṅa as all in all. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam. But if you take it, you are fortunate.

Doctor: And the only way to attain is reciting the name.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṅa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg 18.65].

[Always think of Me and become My devotee. Worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend.]

Do that. Therefore the temple is there. Everyone may come and see Kṛṣṅa and think of Him. What is the difficulty? But he'll not come. He has concluded Kṛṣṅa is nirākāra. God is nirākāra.

Doctor: Then Kṛṣṅa will not come.

Prabhupāda: Well, now, Kṛṣṅa... You... Whatever you think, that is your business, but Kṛṣṅa is there everywhere.

Doctor: He is nirākāra and sākāra.

Prabhupāda: Nirākāra means He has no material ākāra. That is nirākāra. Ākāra means we have got... Just like I have conception of you. So this ākāra is your material ākāra. It is not your real ākāra. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe [Bg 2.13].

[As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change.]

The real person is within the body, but we have no connection with the real body. We see this outward... Just like seeing his dress, his... That's all.

Doctor: How to find the...? How to get to the ātman, the inner body?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the first instruction in the Bhagavad-gītā, that first of all, try to understand what is the person. So because we have no eyes to see, indirectly, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāram... [Bg 2.13]. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg 2.20]. Antavanta ime dehā nityasyoktāḥ śarīriṅaḥ [Bg 2.18]. So many things. Nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ. So many indirect way because we cannot directly perceive.

Doctor: Nainaṁ chindanti śastrāṅi nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ [Bg 2.23].

Prabhupāda: What is called? Definition by negation. Nainaṁ chindanti—negation. So that you can have some idea.

Doctor: Of what it is.

Prabhupāda: It is not material. Because matter, chindanti, any matter, it can be destroyed. It can be cut into pieces, it can be melted in fire, it can be moistened. So when we cannot understand things, it is given in the definition of negation.

Doctor: But then it's much better to worship God in form.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is intelligence. If you accept Kṛṣṅa immediately, man-manā bhava mad..., then your life is successful. Kṛṣṅa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru, mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśaya [Bg 18.65],

[Always think of Me and become My devotee. Worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend.]

He said. But they are not interested. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ [Bg 9.11].

[Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature and My supreme dominion over all that be.]

"Ah, Kṛṣṅa is a historical person. Why shall I think of Him? I shall think of oṁkāra." You cannot think of oṁkāra. You can hear. And as soon as you think of oṁkāra, it comes form. There is no impersonality. It again becomes personal. So they want to avoid personality and as well as think of Him—it becomes a very troublesome job. Kleśo 'dhikataras teṣām avyaktāsakta-cetasām [Bg 12.5].

[For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progrese in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied.]

They cannot think of avyakta, impersonal. But they are trying to think of. And that is a very troublesome job. Kleśala eva avaśiṣyate. Such attempt means he simply gets the result of his hard endeavor. That's all. He doesn't get any substance.

Doctor: So with faith accept the...

Prabhupāda: No faith—it is fact. Faith is blind.

Doctor: Faith is blind.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Faith with good knowledge, that is nice. If you have good knowledge of Kṛṣṅa and you have faith, that is very good. But if you... Just like Māyāvādīs, they say, "Imagine Kṛṣṅa as God." They say, "Imagine."

Doctor: That is no good.

Prabhupāda: They are no good. Kalpana. They say kalpana. Sādhakānāṁ gitarthaya[?] brahma-rūpa-kalpana. Rūpa-kalpana. But Kṛṣṅa's rūpa is not kalpana; it is fact. So kalpana is not faith, it is blind. "Let me imagine some form of Kṛṣṅa." And therefore gradually, they come down to the position that any form you imagine as God, that is all right. They have come to this degradation.

Doctor: That you can, any form...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Any form you imagine that he is God, that will give you success. They say like that.

Doctor: I think I have taken too much of time.

Prabhupāda: I am going there at six.

Doctor: Words of enlightenment.

Hari-śauri: Have you got any of Prabhupāda's books?

Doctor: I have got some. I bought all the volumes of translation of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. I have got all of them. But some of them have not arrived from United States, the latest ones. And I have got...

Hari-śauri: Bhagavad-gītā. That's very nice.

Prabhupāda: You are staying in New Delhi?

Doctor: I stay in the Hague and come to New Delhi when there are no cases.

Prabhupāda: Hague?

Doctor: Holland.

Prabhupāda: Holland. That is the international court?

Doctor: Yes, the court case located, the headquarters.

Prabhupāda: I went somewhere, that is also international. In Geneva, I think. Is there any...?

Doctor: Geneva is another headquarters of the..., of the United Nations. New York, Geneva. But the court is in the Hague.

Prabhupāda: So I went to that place in Geneva.

Doctor: Geneva has got so many specialized agencies of the United Nations, like the I.L.O. and so on.

Prabhupāda: Do you think United Nation is making any tangible progress?

Doctor: Sir, it at least brings people together under one umbrella to discuss. If you did not have that...

Prabhupāda: But discussion, that I have already explained.

Doctor: That maybe, but if you don't discuss, you'll fight.

Prabhupāda: No.

Doctor: Because if aim we don't meet at all, then they will have the struggle.

Prabhupāda: No. If you have no idea how to come to the conclusion, ciraṁ vicinvan [SB 10.14.29],

[My Lord, if one is favored by even a slight trace of the mercy of Your lotus feet, he can understand the greatness of Your personality. But those who speculate to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead are unable to know You, even though they continue to study the Vedas for many years.]

you can forever go on discussing, you'll never come... You do not know what is the aim. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṅuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ [SB 7.5.31].

[Persons who are strongly entrapped by the consciousness of enjoying material life, and who have therefore accepted as their leader or guru a similar blind man attached to external sense objects, cannot understand that the goal of life is to return home, back to Godhead, and engage in the service of Lord Viṣṅu. As blind men guided by another blind man miss the right path and fall into a ditch, materially attached men led by another materially attached man are bound by the ropes of fruitive labor, which are made of very strong cords, and they continue again and again in materialistic life, suffering the threefold miseries.]

Doctor: May be so, but if two people instead of coming to blows come together to talk, it is a step in the right direction.

Prabhupāda: No right direction, because he does not know what is the aim.

Doctor: They both want to have peace, so they at least try to...

Prabhupāda: Everyone wants that. But if he does not know how to attain peace, then you'll go on discussing forever. That is going on.

Doctor: But it is still a step in the right direction...

Prabhupāda: I don't think there is any advancement.

Doctor: ...otherwise, what is the aim?

Prabhupāda: Otherwise, there is; but you don't take, how it can be done? In the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated,

bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati [Bg 5.29]

[The sages, knowing Me as the ultimate purpose of all sacrifices and austerities, the Supreme Lord of all planets and demigods and the benefactor and well-wisher of all living entities, attain peace from the pangs of material miseries.]

This is the process. But if you don't take it...

Doctor: But if that realization does not dawn... Till that realization...

Prabhupāda: Then you go on barking. That is another thing.

Doctor: [laughs] It's better to bark than to fight.

Prabhupāda: Then that is your satisfaction. You can do that peacefully.

Doctor: One day after barking they will come to a conclusion.

Prabhupāda: No, that is... Let it be known, fact, that that will never come, if you do not know what is the aim. That is stated in the..., durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ. This is, means, a bad hope, that by this external exhibition of manipulation of energy, they will come to peace. It is not possible. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṅuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ adānta-gobhir... [SB 7.5.31]. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. This kind of leading is made by the blind leaders. If the leaders are blind and the followers are blind, what result will be there?

Doctor: That is true, sir, but that stage has not come. One day it will come. But till that stage and that realization of...

Prabhupāda: No, stage is there. But if the obstinate persons, they do not take it... Here it is clearly said... Just like Kṛṣṅa says, sarva-loka-maheśvaram [Bg 5.29]:

"I am the proprietor of all the lands, all the planets." So how can you say no? There must be someone proprietor.

Doctor: But then God Himself has created the ego in man.

Prabhupāda: No, no. He has created...

Doctor: God is the creator. He's also the creator of the ego of man.

Prabhupāda: He has created ego. That is a fact. But you are utilizing the ego in a different way.

Doctor: Because the realization is not there.

Prabhupāda: He is giving the intelligence, but you are not accepting.

Doctor: Maybe so.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the difficulty. He has come to give you instruction, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati [Bg 4.7]. When you forget—there is glānir, discrepancies, in the discharge of your duties—He comes to give you instruction, but you don't accept. Now what can be done? The teacher is giving you instruction, but you don't accept. Then how you'll be educated? This is going on. Mūḍho nābhijānāti loko mām ajam avyayam [Bg 7.25].

[I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent. For them I am covered by My eternal creative potency [yoga-māyā]; and so the deluded world knows Me not, who am unborn and infallible.]

They do not accept. They will write comments on Bhagavad-gītā in their own way. You see? Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Yes. As it is. Don't comment in your own way. You'll not get any profit. Take, for example, any law, government law. Can I comment in my own way?

Doctor: No.

Prabhupāda: Then why you comment on Bhagavad-gītā?

Doctor: The law is meant for obedience.

Prabhupāda: That's all. Similarly, if you accept Kṛṣṅa as the Supreme Lord, then whatever He has said... Just like Arjuna says, sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yan māṁ vadasi keśava [Bg 10.14]:

[O Kṛṣṅa, I totally accept as truth all that You have told me. Neither the gods nor demons, O Lord, know Thy personality.]

"Whatever you are saying, Keśava, I accept them in total." That is acceptance.

Doctor: [laughs] Along this note, I'll... [break] [end]