Room Conversation

Ānandamaya: ...the greatest program in this life is birth, old age, disease and death. And Bhagavad-gītā gives the remedy for...

Prabhupāda: This is good. If you want to stop this repetition of birth, death, old age and disease, then you must take the way of life spoken by... [break]

Ānandamaya: ...seem to be...

Prabhupāda: Nobody is in healthy condition.

[devotee offers obeisances] [break]

Ānandamaya: Just like a medicine. We may understand it. For myself, I can tell. I study Bhagavad-gītā and I understand it, but I find so much difficulty to applicate it to the life of every day because...

Prabhupāda: That is... Everything is difficult, but... Why "but"?

[pause] [break]

Prabhupāda: ...a physician, to purchase the medicine, to drink the medi..., that is also difficult, but we have to do that.

Guest (1) [Indian man]: Bhagavad-gītā gives the way to go back to Godhead.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Guest (1): Bhagavad-gītā gives the way to go back to Godhead. Otherwise one has to suffer continuously.

Prabhupāda: Yes, this material world, birth after birth. One birth, suffering, then again die, again another birth, again suffering. But the people are kept in ignorance. They do not know how the soul is transmigrating.

[aside:] Aiye. Betiye. From... Ask them to sit down properly. Why don't you... Is there any seat, proper? So you...

[Hindi] What was the topic? What was going on, the topic?

Ānandamaya: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this morning we went to this engagement. There was the inauguration of the Vivekananda Society Home, so we went there on saṅkīrtana because we were invited by them. And one svāmī spoke, and he said service to mankind was also service to God. And at the end he also said that Vivekananda used to say that for the housewife, that the cooking pot was becoming God, had become God, had become a God.

Prabhupāda: And people applauded. This is foolishness. They do not know how to act. Just like if you pour water on the tree, then it is accepted that you are pouring water on the tree. But that is not the process. The process is to pour water on the root of the tree. Practically we... You can make an experiment. Just like here is a tree. You don't pour water on the root but pour water on the leaves. Then it will dry in due course of time. It will not be effective. But if you pour water on the root, the water will go everywhere. So the whole thing is just like a tree. God is the origin of everything. He is the root. Aham ādir hi devānām [Bg 10.2]. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ [Bg 10.8].

[I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who know this perfectly engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts.]

Therefore He is the root. So if you pour water in the root, then the water is distributed everywhere. But if you pour water on the leaves, on the twigs, on the fruits, it will take time and it will not be successful.

So one who is not in awareness of the laws of nature, they commit this mistake. We can say that pouring water on the leaves is also pouring water on the tree—by serving human being you can serve the Supreme Lord. But that is not the way. Another example is that if you supply food to the stomach, then the share is partaken by all the parts of the body. But if you supply food to the part of the body, it is not shared by other part of the body. They are opening hospital for men, human being, but what about the animals? They are also part and parcel of God. They are killing them. So they have no realization of God. God says, sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā [Bg 14.4].

[It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed-giving father.]

Suppose I have got several sons. If you take care of my one son and you neglect others I will not be happy, naturally. But if you take care of all my sons, then I'll be happy. For a father there is no such distinction that "My particular son should be taken care of and other should be neglected or they should be killed." That is not father's view. So if God is the father of all living entities, if you take simply care of the human being, then what of the others? There are so many fallacies in this argument, that by taking care of the human being you worship God. There are so many fallacies. Hmm? Is it not? So you have to put this argument, that "By serving human society is to serve God, that is not fact." That may be partially; it is not complete.

Ānandamaya: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, so he talked about all these things [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: I cannot hear.

Ānandamaya: He didn't talk once about Kṛṣṅa. He didn't mention once the name of Kṛṣṅa, and he didn't say anything about...

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṅa is the root of everything. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate [Bg 10.8].

[I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who know this perfectly engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts.]

So He is the root. So you pour water in the root. Just like we are Kṛṣṅa conscious. So because we are Kṛṣṅa conscious, does it mean that we are not taking care of the human being? That is automatically coming. But those who are taking care of the human society only, social work, political work, they do not know even what Kṛṣṅa. Missing. That is the difference. Because we are taking of Kṛṣṅa, we have come to the human society. We are teaching them Kṛṣṅa consciousness, spiritual knowledge. That is automatically. We are feeding them, giving them prasādam. That is included. But those who are opening hospitals for human being, they are taking the poor animals to the slaughterhouse, maintaining big, big slaughterhouse. That means foolishness. Kṛṣṅa will not be happy that one son you take care by opening hospital and another son you go, you send him to the slaughterhouse. This is foolishness. Never. God will never be happy. The same example: if the father has got both children—you take care one of them and others you kill them—will the father be happy?

So that is not the way of making the supreme father, God, happy. That is not the way. That is foolish way. Rather, displeasing the father. That is not a very good philosophy. Why you should make distinction? He claims,

sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ tāsāṁ brahma mahad yonir ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā [Bg 14.4]

[It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed-giving father.]

Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ [Bg 15.7]: "Every living entity is My part and parcel. Every living entity is begotten by Me. I am the father." So how you can make discrimination from one son to another? That is foolishness. You cannot expect by pleasing one son the father will be happy. But if you bring something to the father and pay him, or some food, "Sir, it is for your sons," then he'll be pleased. He'll distribute the foodstuff to his sons. But if you take care one of the sons and don't take care of the other son, the father will never please. Very... That is not the way of pleasing the father. That is foolishness. You may say that "I am taking care of the best son," but to a father, either the best son or the lowest son, the same. Father does not make any..., "Because this is best son, he should be satisfied and the worst sons should be neglect." Father does not make. Father will like better that "You take care of my worst son first." And besides that, to take care of the human society, it is also bogus. Nobody can take care. There are so many problems in the human society, how you can take care? But the real problem is—that is for everyone—janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. Either he is animal, or human being, or demigod, or big man, or small man, or rich man, or poor man, a learned man, foolish man—these problems are there, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. So if you take care of these problems, how to save them, all of them, from these four problems, that is real service. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg 13.9].

[Humility, pridelessness, nonviolence, tolerance, simplicity, approaching a bona fide spiritual master, cleanliness, steadiness and self-control; renunciation of the objects of sense gratification, absence of false ego, the perception of the evil of birth, death, old age and disease; nonattachment to children, wife, home and the rest, and evenmindedness amid pleasant and unpleasant events; constant and unalloyed devotion to Me, resorting to solitary places, detachment from the general mass of people; accepting the importance of self-realization, and philosophical search for the Absolute Truth—all these I thus declare to be knowledge, and what is contrary to these is ignorance.]

Otherwise temporary—"I am hungry. You give me some relief"—but that relief is temporary. I'll become again hungry. And if I come to you twice, thrice, you'll be disgusted. Neither you can. There are so many hungry men. But if with a view to solve his all problems of life, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi, if you take care of him, that is the best service.

Ānandamaya: Śrīla Prabhupāda, also Lord Kṛṣṅa says in the Bhagavad-gītā at the end that "One who surrenders unto Me, he will be delivered from all material reactions and go to [indistinct]." But it is also said that some persons, they are more inclined to surrender than others.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You should surrender; you should request others to surrender. That is service.

Ānandamaya: But, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is it because of their karma, past activity, that they...

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, one can immediately surrender if he likes. The background has nothing to do. Even the background is sinful, Kṛṣṅa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi [Bg 18.66]: "I shall save you from reaction of sinful life." Then there is no consideration of their background. You simply surrender. Then it will be solved, everything.

Ānandamaya: But, Śrīla Prabhupāda, has anyone got the same ability to surrender? Because...

Prabhupāda: Everyone has got. If I say, "You surrender," you just... What is... If you disagree, that is another. Otherwise you can surrender immediately. Where is the difficulty?

Ānandamaya: So it's just by our personal whim that we can surrender.

Prabhupāda: Anyone can surrender immediately. There is no difficulty. But if he does not, then nobody can induce him. Otherwise, if he likes, he can surrender immediately. And He said, voluntary. Kṛṣṅa does not force. If He would have forced, then He would not say, "You surrender." No, it is your will. If you like, you surrender. If I say, "You do this," that is not force. If you like, you can do it. That is your interest. Yathecchasi tathā kuru [Bg 18.63]: "Whatever you like, you do that. But I give you the right instruction, that if you surrender, you'll be happy." That is the greatest service. If you teach people how to surrender to Kṛṣṅa, that is the greatest service. That will solve his all problems.

[aside:] [indistinct] has... That's all. Bring water.

If you don't surrender, then go on suffering. That's all. That is your business. You should surrender.

Guest (2) [Indian man]: I have got some doubt.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Guest (2): If we are all children of Lord Kṛṣṅa—all the living beings are a part of Kṛṣṅa—in that case childrens in thousands and hundreds who are killed every day...

Prabhupāda: That is created by you, that you may become the sons of one father, but every one of you has got different tendency.

Guest (2): But I can't see how...

Prabhupāda: No, no, just try to understand that we are all sons of Kṛṣṅa.

That's nice. [aside:] No, there is another one.

Devotee: Of brass?

Prabhupāda: It is silver. You go. All right. A father has got five sons. Some of them are very learned; some of them foolish. Why? Does the father like that "The some of my sons should be rascals, and others should be very nice"? Does the father like it? Then why he becomes? Hmm?

Guest (2): If one becomes...

Prabhupāda: [Hindi] That we say. Consider. But these varieties are there, so how you can check it? Cause may be different. I have seen while I was in Allahabad one big barrister's sons. One became barrister; another became ekala.[?] You know ekala? Ekala driver. So the father did not like that "One of my sons should become ekala, and other son should be like me, barrister," but I have seen. And there are many instances. Father does not want that "My son should be vagabond, useless," but sometimes they become by their own activities. That independence everyone has got. So that is not father's creation. Your point was "Why God has created like that?" That is foolishness. God says that "You surrender." But you do not surrender. That is your foolishness.

Guest (2): [indistinct] ...must be punished.

Prabhupāda: Eh? Naturally. Suppose if there is some infectious disease, the doctor says, "Don't go there." And if you go there, you'll be infected. You'll suffer. How the doctor can protect you? Doctor's duty is to warn you not to go to that area, "It is now infected with smallpox." But in spite of doctor's instruction, if you go there and if you infect that disease and suffer, then it is your fault. When a man is hanged by the judgment of the court, do you think that the high-court judge is inimical to that person? He's giving judgment to other persons that "This one must make one lakh of rupees from that person." And next judgment, "This man must be hanged." Does it mean the high-court judge is partial? He's simply giving judgment on the merit of the particular case. So there is no argument that "Why God has created so many varieties?" God has not created; you have created. "Man is the architect of his own fortune." Fortune and misfortune you have created. So we have to suffer or so-called enjoy. There is no enjoyment here. It is simply suffering. But because you are under māyā, you are thinking suffering as enjoying. Just like a hog is eating stool. Other man is becoming: "Very abominable! Oh, what nasty thing he is..." But he is enjoying. He is thinking, "I am enjoying the best food." I have seen in aeroplane. One Indian gentleman, he was eating the intestine of the hog. So it was horrible for me, but he was eating very nice.

So in this way the world is going on. "One man's food is another man's poison." So similarly, we are creating our next birth according to our desire. Kāraṅaṁ guṅa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu [Bg 13.22]. According to the infection of the different modes of material nature, we are creating good or bad body next life. The laws of nature is unknown to the foolish society. They are thinking, "This life is everything. Misled, they do not know the aim of life. That is going on. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31].

[Persons who are strongly entrapped by the consciousness of enjoying material life, and who have therefore accepted as their leader or guru a similar blind man attached to external sense objects, cannot understand that the goal of life is to return home, back to Godhead, and engage in the service of Lord Viṣṅu. As blind men guided by another blind man miss the right path and fall into a ditch, materially attached men led by another materially attached man are bound by the ropes of fruitive labor, which are made of very strong cords, and they continue again and again in materialistic life, suffering the threefold miseries.]

One blind leader is leading other blind men. This is going on. And when we present the real solution, they say it is brainwash. Now, against our movement there is propaganda in USA, charging that "He has brainwashed them."

[aside:] You can come here. [Hindi]

"It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." This is our position. When we speak all these things, they say it is brainwashing movement. Actually it is brainwashing movement because we are dissipating all kinds of misunderstanding, values of life. Ceto-darpaṅa-mārjanam. It is not brainwashing; it is heart-washing. Our heart is stacked with so many dirty things, so we are trying to wash it. Ceto-darpaṅa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṅam [Cc Antya 20.12].

[Let there be all victory for the chanting of the holy name of Lord Kṛṣṅa, which can cleanse the mirror of the heart and stop the miseries of the blazing fire of material existence. That chanting is the waxing moon that spreads the white lotus of good fortune for all living entities. It is the life and soul of all education. The chanting of the holy name of Kṛṣṅa expands the blissful ocean of transcendental life. It gives a cooling effect to everyone and enables one to taste full nectar at every step.]

And that is our movement. We are trying to cleanse the heart so that he can understand himself. One can understand his real position and then do the needful, and life becomes successful.

Guest (3) [Indian man]: Where is soul?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Jagad-guru: He is asking where is the soul.

Prabhupāda: Can you see? So soul is within the heart. When the soul goes away, you cannot explain what happened. You say "heart failure." So why the heart failure? The nerves and the bones and the muscle and the blood, everything is there, and still, you say that "It stopped. Heart failure." So just like machine is running, but somehow or other stopped, but you do not know what is the cause of stopping. The cause is that the heart, when it goes away, then the machine stops.

Guest (3): God is within the soul also.

Prabhupāda: Yes. God is along with you. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg 18.61]. He is there.

[The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart, O Arjuna, and is directing the wanderings of all living entities, who are seated as on a machine, made of the material energy.]

Guest (4) [Indian man]: Swāmījī, in Bhagavad-gītā it is telling karma also and surrendering also. Now, how it is possible? In karma-kāṅḍa [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: Karma, if you do... Just like we are preaching so many people to surrender to Kṛṣṅa, but they will not do it. Do you think our this instruction, that "You surrender to Kṛṣṅa," is taken by everyone? Do you think? Suppose you are all here. We are preaching the same thing, that "Surrender to Kṛṣṅa." But these boys, they have surrendered, but you have not surrendered.

Guest (4): [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: First of all try to understand. It is... The free will is there. If you don't surrender, then, Kṛṣṅa says, niyataṁ kuru karma tvaṁ karma jyāyo hy akarmaṅaḥ: "Instead of sitting idly, better you do your prescribed duty." So prescribed duty is cātur-varṅyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṅa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg 4.13].

[According to the three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me. And, although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the non-doer, being unchangeable.]

According to guṅa and karma, there are four divisions. So if you are in the first-class division as brāhmaṅa, you do the brāhmaṅa's work. If you are a kṣatriya, you do the kṣatriya's... Niyataṁ kuru karma. What is you are destined, you do that nicely. Don't be idle. That is Kṛṣṅa's in... But if you are intelligent, then Kṛṣṅa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam [Bg 18.66]. But you are foolish, then you be engaged in your prescribed duty. And if you are intelligent, then "You give up everything; simply surrender unto Me." That depends on you. If you are intelligent, you'll surrender; if you are not intelligent, be engaged in your karma. Kṛṣṅa is giving all facilities. Now it is up to you to make your selection. But He says, niyataṁ kuru karma. [aside:] Find out this verse.

niyataṁ kuru karma tvaṁ karma jyāyo hy akarmaṅaḥ śarīra-yātrāpi ca te na prasiddhyed akarmaṅaḥ [Bg 3.8]

[Perform your prescribed duty, for action is better than inaction. A man cannot even maintain his physical body without work.]

Devotee (3): Should I read the translation?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (3): "Perform your prescribed duties, for action is better than inaction."

Prabhupāda: But if you have no prescribed duties, then you are animal. Just like monkey. What is his duty? He is jumping simply and creating havoc. Monkey is very busy. Wherever he'll sit down, he'll "gat, gat, gat, gat," like this. That's all. Very busy. But what is the meaning of his business? Simply creating disturbance Therefore it is said, niyataṁ kuru karma tvam: "Act on your prescribed duties." Don't act like a monkey. That is better. What is that?

Devotee (3): "For action is better than inaction. A man cannot even maintain his physical body without work."

Prabhupāda: Then? Purport?

Devotee (3): Purport: "There are many pseudo-meditators who misrepresent themselves as belonging to high parentage, and great professional men who falsely pose that they have sacrificed everything for the sake of advancement in spiritual life. Lord Kṛṣṅa did not want Arjuna to become a pretender, but that he perform his prescribed duties as set for kṣatriyas. Arjuna was a householder and a military general, and therefore it was better for him to remain as such and perform his religious duties as prescribed for the householder kṣatriya. Such activities gradually cleanse the heart..."

Prabhupāda: You are following? Go on.

Devotee (3): "...and free him from material contamination. So-called renunciation for the purpose of maintenance is never approved by the Lord, nor by any religious scripture. After all, one has to maintain one's body and soul together by some work. Work should not be given up capriciously, without purification of materialistic propensities. Anyone who is in the material world is certainly possessed of the impure propensity for lording it over material nature, or, in other words, for sense gratification. Such polluted propensities have to be cleared. Without doing so through prescribed duties, one should never attempt to become a so-called transcendentalist, renouncing work and living at the cost of others."

Prabhupāda: So Bhagavad-gītā is giving you gradual process to the highest point, and highest point is to surrender. That is the most confidential part of knowledge. Sarva-guhyatamam. Guhyād guhyataram. Find out this verse, Eighteenth Chapter. He has given the instruction of karma-yoga, jñāna, everything, but the most confidential instruction is this.

Devotee (3):

sarva-guhyatamaṁ bhūyaḥ śṛṅu me paramaṁ vacaḥ iṣṭo 'si me dṛḍham iti tato vakṣyāmi te hitam [Bg 18.64]

Translation: "Because you are My very dear friend, I am speaking to you the most confidential part of knowledge. Hear this from Me, for it is for your benefit."

Prabhupāda: Is there any purport?

Devotee (3): "The Lord has given Arjuna confidential knowledge of the Supersoul within everyone's heart, and now He is giving the most confidential part of this knowledge: just surrender unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead. At the end of the Ninth Chapter He has said, 'Just always think of Me.' The same instruction is repeated here to stress the essence of the teachings of Bhagavad-gītā. This essence is not understood by a common man, but by one who is actually very dear to Kṛṣṅa, a pure devotee of Kṛṣṅa. This is the most important instruction in all Vedic literature. What Kṛṣṅa is saying in this connection is the most essential part of knowledge, and it should be carried out not only by Arjuna but by all living entities."

Prabhupāda: Guhyatamam, most confidential. This is not for all, but for the advanced person and who is in confidence of Kṛṣṅa, He says, iṣṭo 'si me...? What is that next? Iṣṭo 'si?

Devotee (3): Iṣṭo 'si me dṛḍham iti.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Devotee (3): Iṣṭo 'si me dṛḍham iti tato vakṣyāmi.

Prabhupāda: Dṛḍham?

Devotee (3): Dṛḍham.

Prabhupāda: No. What is the spelling?

Devotee (3): Dṛḍham.

Prabhupāda: No, no, the word, separate word? Iṣṭo 'si?

Devotee (3): D-r-d-h-a-m.

Prabhupāda: Hitam.

Devotee (3): Dṛḍham iti tato vakṣyāmi te hitam.

Prabhupāda: Te hitam. So it is not for all. One who is in confidence of Kṛṣṅa, a pure devotee, for him, not for the ordinary man. Ordinary man—"You do your prescribed duty." But they have no prescribed duty even. The people of this age, they are so fallen, they have no prescribed duty. They are simply engaged like animals—eating, sleeping, sex and defense. That's all. Animal is engaged like that, eating, sleeping, sex, and defense. So we are being educated only like animals. We do not know the value of life, how nature is working, how we are changing our body. No education all over the world. Simply making plans how to eat, how to sleep, how to enjoy senses, how to defend, that's all. This is animal life. This is not prescribed duty. Prescribed duty is above this. From animal, one has to become brāhmaṅa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, utmost śūdra, like that. That is prescribed duty. And simply whole day working for eating, sleeping, mating, that is the business of the hog. Hog is also whole day working for eating, sleeping and sex and defense. Therefore śāstra says, nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye [SB 5.5.1].

[Lord Ṛṣabhadeva told His sons: My dear boys, of all the living entities who have accepted material bodies in this world, one who has been awarded this human form should not work hard day and night simply for sense gratification, which is available even for dogs and hogs that eat stool. One should engage in penance and austerity to attain the divine position of devotional service. By such activity, one's heart is purified, and when one attains this position, he attains eternal, blissful life, which is transcendental to material happiness and which continues forever.]

You should not live the life of a hog, viḍ-bhujām. Viḍ-bhujām means the stool-eater. He is also working day and night. What is the business? "Where is stool?" That's all. And as soon as he's strong, then "Where is sex," without any discrimination. That is hog's life.

So human life is not meant for spoiling like hog's life. Therefore niyataṁ kuru karma tvam. You should classify yourself amongst the four divisions, cātur-varṅyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṅa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg 4.13], and then your prescribed duties are there.

[According to the three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me. And, although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the non-doer, being unchangeable.]

If you want to become a brāhmaṅa, then śamo damas titikṣā ārjavam, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg 18.42].

[Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness—these are the qualities by which the brāhmaṅas work.]

If you want to be kṣatriya, tejaḥ... What is that? Tejaḥ śauryaṁ yujyaṁ yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam īśvara-bhāvaś ca kṣātraṁ karma svabhāva-jam. If you want to be a vaiśya, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṅijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg 18.44].

[Farming, cow protection and business are the qualities of work for the vaiśyas, and for the śūdras there is labor and service to others.]

And if you want to remain a śūdra, paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam. And that is prescribed duty. You classify yourself—either as a brāhmaṅa or as a kṣatriya or a vaiśya—by quality, not by caste or by whims, no. Actually by qualification. Then you engage yourself in that duty. That is niyataṁ karma tvam. Otherwise, jumping like monkeys, that is not karma. That is monkey's dance. It has no value. Wasting time. You should not waste time a single moment. Therefore Kṛṣṅa says, niyataṁ kuru karma tvam. So make that. Don't waste your time.

[pause]

Prabhupāda: That's all right. She is child. What can be done? You cannot...

Guest (2): Swāmījī, what is Kṛṣṅa consciousness?

Prabhupāda: What Kṛṣṅa says, you hear and do. Just like you are now acting, family conscious or country conscious or society conscious. The dog is also working as dog conscious. Monkey is working, monkey conscious. He is thinking, "I am monkey." You are thinking you are Indian. He is thinking he is American. He is thinking as..., so on, so on, different consciousness. But when you act Kṛṣṅa consciousness, that is your real dharma. Now we are working under different consciousness; therefore varieties. And when you come to Kṛṣṅa consciousness, then it is oneness, perfection, to act according to the instruction of Kṛṣṅa. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṅānuśīlanam [Cc Madhya 19.167].

[When first-class devotional service develops, one must be devoid of all material desires, knowledge obtained by monistic philosophy, and fruitive action. The devotee must constantly serve Kṛṣṅa favorably, as Kṛṣṅa desires.]

What Kṛṣṅa says, you act accordingly. You are acting... The Communists, they are acting Lenin consciousness. Is it not? Their god is Lenin. I have been in Moscow. Everywhere Lenin's picture, Lenin's book, and they are worshiping Lenin's tomb. That is Lenin consciousness. So similarly, you become Kṛṣṅa conscious.

Guest (5) [Indian man]: Those who have become Kṛṣṅa conscious, they will see Kṛṣṅa?

Prabhupāda: Yes, otherwise where is consciousness, if you do not think of Kṛṣṅa? Just like these boys, they are always thinking of Kṛṣṅa, either chanting or reading book or selling book or writing book, preaching Kṛṣṅa, twenty-four hours, taking Kṛṣṅa's prasādam, taking rest for working in Kṛṣṅa consciousness, everything in Kṛṣṅa, chanting always Hare Kṛṣṅa. This is Kṛṣṅa consciousness. They have no other business.

Guest (6) [Indian man]: What is the meaning of good citizen? Good citizen?

Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṅa consciousness is spiritual vision. Kṛṣṅa is the supreme spirit, and if you remain Kṛṣṅa conscious, then spiritual vision. That is spiritual.

Guest (6): Swāmījī, you have seen Kṛṣṅa?

Prabhupāda: What do you think? We are all rascals, blindly following? Do you think like that? Then why I have not seen? Why do you ask this? If we are acting for Kṛṣṅa, do you mean to say that we are following blindly? Do you think like that? What is your opinion? If we have not seen Kṛṣṅa, then how we are acting for Kṛṣṅa? Hmm? What is your idea? We are all fools, that without seeing the master we are acting? Do you think like that? Why don't you answer? This is foolish question. How one can serve a master without seeing the master? Is it a fact that without seeing the master one is serving? [aside:] Find out this verse, sarvatra yo māṁ paśyati, mayi ca sarvaṁ paśyati, like that.

Devotee (3): Sarvatra?

Prabhupāda: Yo māṁ paśyati. Or yo māṁ paśyati sarvatra. Find out. Yo māṁ paśyati sarvatra.

Devotee (3): [devotees discuss finding verse]

yo māṁ paśyati sarvatra sarvaṁ ca mayi paśyati tasyāhaṁ na praṅaśyāmi sa ca me na praṅaśyati [Bg 6.30]

"For one who sees Me everywhere and sees everything in Me, I am never lost, nor is he ever lost to Me."

Prabhupāda: Is there a purport?

Devotee (3): "A person in Kṛṣṅa consciousness certainly sees Lord Kṛṣṅa everywhere, and he sees everything in Kṛṣṅa. Such a person may appear to see all separate manifestations of the material nature, but in each and every instance he is conscious of Kṛṣṅa, knowing that everything is the manifestation of Kṛṣṅa's energy. Nothing can exist without Kṛṣṅa, and Kṛṣṅa is the Lord of everything—this is the basic principle of Kṛṣṅa consciousness. Kṛṣṅa consciousness is the development of love of Kṛṣṅa—a position transcendental even to material liberation. It is the stage beyond self-realization at which the devotee becomes one with Kṛṣṅa in the sense that Kṛṣṅa becomes everything for the devotee, and the devotee becomes full in loving Kṛṣṅa. An intimate relationship between the Lord and the devotee then exists. In that stage, the living entity attains his immortality. Nor is the Personality of Godhead ever out of the sight of the devotee. To merge in Kṛṣṅa is spiritual annihilation. A devotee takes no such risk. It is stated in the Brahma-saṁhitā, premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti [Bs 5.38]."

[I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who is Śyāmasundara, Kṛṣṅa Himself with inconceivable innumerable attributes, whom the pure devotees see in their heart of hearts with the eye of devotion tinged with the salve of love.]

Prabhupāda: Santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti. He sees every moment.

Devotee (3): "Yaṁ śyāmasundaram acintya-guṅa-svarūpam..."

Prabhupāda: Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi.

Devotee (3): " 'I worship the primeval Lord Govinda, who is always seen by the devotee whose eyes are anointed with the pulp of love. He is seen in His eternal form of Śyāmasundara situated within the heart of the devotee.' At this stage Lord Kṛṣṅa never disappears from the sight of the devotee, nor does the devotee ever lose sight of the Lord. In the case of a yogī who sees the Lord as Paramātmā within the heart, the same applies. Such a yogī turns into a pure devotee and cannot bear to live for a moment without seeing the Lord within himself."

Prabhupāda: You are seeing also Kṛṣṅa, but because you have no love, therefore you cannot appreciate how we are seeing. If you love some person you keep his photograph on the breast. Is it not? So you are seeing Kṛṣṅa in the temple, but because you have no love you think that "I am not seeing Him." That is the defect. They are seeing Kṛṣṅa. Otherwise why they have sacrificed everything for worshiping Kṛṣṅa, for dressing Kṛṣṅa, for feeding Kṛṣṅa? They are seeing Kṛṣṅa. They are not wasting their time. But you have no love for Kṛṣṅa. You're thinking that "They have not seen Kṛṣṅa. They are worshiping an idol." That is the difference. One who loves somebody, he keeps his picture on his chest. He does not: he throws it, same picture. It is question of love. Therefore it is said, premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu [Bs 5.38].

[I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who is Śyāmasundara, Kṛṣṅa Himself with inconceivable innumerable attributes, whom the pure devotees see in their heart of hearts with the eye of devotion tinged with the salve of love.]

One who has developed that love and bhakti, he can see Kṛṣṅa at every moment. Otherwise it is not possible. And because you cannot see, you ask them also, "Can you see?" But the seeing process is different. We do not know the process; therefore we are thinking that Kṛṣṅa cannot be seen. And one who knows the process, he sees every moment. Is it clear? You learn the process, you will see Kṛṣṅa every moment. Therefore this word is used, premāñjana-cchurita. By the eye ointment of love you have to smear your eyes; then you'll be able to see Kṛṣṅa. Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ [Bg 7.25]. Find out this verse. Yoga-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ. When one's eyes is covered by the yoga-māyā he cannot see, see Kṛṣṅa.

Devotee (3):

nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ mūḍho 'yaṁ nābhijānāti loko mām ajam avyayam [Bg 7.25]

[I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent. For them I am covered by My eternal creative potency [yoga-māyā]; and so the deluded world knows Me not, who am unborn and infallible.]

Prabhupāda: Mūḍho 'yaṁ na abhijānāti: "Those who are rascals, they cannot see." Mūḍho 'yaṁ na abhijānāti. So one has to become interested how to see Kṛṣṅa.

Guest (7) [Indian man]: Satya Sai Baba says...

Prabhupāda: Satya Sai Baba is not authority.

Guest (7): No, no, I don't accept.

Prabhupāda: Then why you quote him? We are not prepared to hear his words.

Guest (7): Kindly clear up my doubt.

Prabhupāda: No... That is another thing. That is another thing.

Guest (7): All the miracles only just to increase confidence and all this...

Prabhupāda: Why...? Magic is magic. That is another thing. That is not knowledge.

Guest (7): Suppose if I want to talk here Kṛṣṅa consciousness among the masses...

Prabhupāda: No, we have to push on Kṛṣṅa consciousness according to the direction of Kṛṣṅa, not by the ways and means by Sai Baba. That is foolishness.

Guest (7): Can I attain such magical powers?

Prabhupāda: So why? What is the use? We are not using any magical powers.

Guest (7): Just to convince the people.

Prabhupāda: Why this foolishness? We never... Ask my disciples. I have never shown any magic. Why?

Bhāgavata: That is a cheap business.

Prabhupāda: That is cheating business. That is not required. It is meant for the foolish men.

Guest (7): [indistinct] Suri Bhagavantam, he was convinced by him just because of his magical powers.

Prabhupāda: Who?

Guest (7): Suri Bhagavantam is a scientist. He was convinced by him just because of his magical powers. Otherwise he could not influence me. One of my friends who was sitting there, he told me, "Satya Sai Baba, he won't come this side," he said. I said, "I'll make him to come this side."

Prabhupāda: No, these are words. He has been challenged also by a group of educated men. So there are some fools, rascals. That is all...

Guest (7): I have got belief in God, and so Narendra, my friend, was sitting by my side. "No, if I sit there only, he will go that way. I want to see him this side."

Prabhupāda: Do you accept Sai Baba as God?

Guest (7): No, no, not at all.

Prabhupāda: Then why do you speak all this? That's...

Guest (7): Not even greater than me. I don't think like that. He is also a human being like me.

Guest (6): In the Bhāgavatam it is said that [indistinct Sanskrit]. [indistinct]

Guest (7): And he could not do his siddhi before [indistinct]. If it is real siddhi he could have showed all his powers even before [indistinct]. [indistinct discussion between Indian guests]

Prabhupāda: Go to the standard of knowledge. Bhagavad-gītā is accepted by the ācāryas—Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Viṣṅu Svāmī, Lord Caitanya. So take that standard. Why do you go to the rascals and fools? Unless you are rascal and fool, you cannot go to the rascal and fool. Why? You take. If you want to know God, take the standard knowledge which is accepted by the... Ācāryopāsanam. You take the knowledge through the ācāryas. Why from a rascal? That is not knowledge. Kṛṣṅa recommends how to take the knowledge. Eh? Amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam ācāryopāsanam [Bg 13.8]. Worship the ācārya. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet [Muṅḍaka Upaniṣad 1.2.12].

[To understand these things properly, one must humbly approach, with firewood in hand, a spiritual master who is learned in the Vedas and firmly devoted to the Absolute Truth.]

[aside:] Just read this. What is that?

Devotee (3): Amānitvam adambhitvam...

Prabhupāda: This is the process of knowledge. Amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam ācāryopāsanam. Ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyāt [SB 11.17.27].

[One should know the ācārya as Myself and never disrespect him in any way. One should not envy him, thinking him an ordinary man, for he is the representative of all the demigods.]

If you go to ācārya, then you'll know the knowledge. What is this, go to a magician, a rascal? Magician is authority? There are so many magicians. So one should go for God to a magician? Ācāryopāsanam. Go to ācārya. That is recommended. Why should you go to the magician? That is your fault. You go to the wrong person, and you are cheated because you want to be cheated. You want to see magic; you don't want to see God. God is personally speaking, accepted God, not that by magical... And who can show greater magic than Kṛṣṅa? Kṛṣṅa, when He was seven years old, He lifted the Govardhana Hill. Can this rascal do that? Who can be greater magician than Kṛṣṅa? So we shall go to the greatest magician. Why shall I go to a teeny magician? That is our misfortune. If you want to see magic, see the magic, what Kṛṣṅa has done. This is our misfortune, that we go to a wrong person and misled. If you want magician, see Kṛṣṅa, how great magician He is. He married sixteen thousand wives. Is there any instance in the history of the world that one has sixteen thousand wives and maintaining each of them? And He expanded Himself in sixteen thousand husbands. Not that one wife is waiting: "When sixteen thousand..., after sixteen thousand nights, He would come here." No. He is present everywhere. That is magic. Nārada was surprised, that "How Kṛṣṅa is maintaining sixteen thousand wives?" He saw in each and every home sixteen thousand establishment, and Kṛṣṅa is present everywhere.

So this is magic. Why don't you see Kṛṣṅa's magic? Why you are so much allured by a teeny magician? That is your misfortune. Poor heart, poor magic. See the real magic. If you want to see magic, see the Kṛṣṅa's magic. Kṛṣṅa, when He was three months old, the Pūtanā came to kill the child by poisoning, but she was killed. So in this way, from the very beginning of Kṛṣṅa's appearance, He's killing so many demons. So why don't you see this magic? If you want to see magic, see Kṛṣṅa's magic. Why the poor magic? Kṛṣṅa says, sarva-loka-maheśvaram [Bg 5.29]: "I am the proprietor of all the lokas."

[The sages, knowing Me as the ultimate purpose of all sacrifices and austerities, the Supreme Lord of all planets and demigods and the benefactor and well-wisher of all living entities, attain peace from the pangs of material miseries.]

And each loka... Suppose this loka, earthly planet. There are hundreds of gold mines. Why you are captivated with the chaṭāka gold? Why don't you be captivated by the person who has millions of gold mines by His wish? So we are poor; therefore we are captivated by poor magician. If we are intelligent, then we should be captivated by Kṛṣṅa's magic. That is intelligence. But we are poor; we are captivated by poor magic. That's all. Don't be poor. Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam [Bg 7.25].

[I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent. For them I am covered by My eternal creative potency [yoga-māyā]; and so the deluded world knows Me not, who am unborn and infallible.]

Don't remain mūḍhas. Try to understand Kṛṣṅa. Then your life will be successful. That is Kṛṣṅa knowledge. Janma karma ca me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ [Bg 4.9].

[One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna.]

Anyone who understands Kṛṣṅa's activities, then he becomes liberated. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti. Why don't you use your valuable time for understand Kṛṣṅa? Why you are captured by the poor rascal magicians? That means we are unfortunate. If we become captivated by teeny magician, that means we are unfortunate. Be captivated by the magic Kṛṣṅa has shown. That is the point.

Guest (8) [Indian man]: Your Divine Grace, there is Mukunda-mālā-stotra by Kulaśekhara Mahārāja. Are there any translations of that in the English and other languages?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (8) [Indian man]: There are [indistinct] ślokas with you [indistinct] Kṛṣṅa mantra?

Prabhupāda: Yes. I think we have translated Kulaśekhara... It is not published, but I have translated.

Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, some of these devotees are required to... With your permission, I'd like to have some of the devotees come out for kīrtana and [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: So? You can go to the ārati, kīrtana. Go.

Jagadīśa: Just take whatever you need.

Prabhupāda: You also go. [break]

Devotee: ...the argument that after saying "Surrender to Kṛṣṅa" and becoming free from the miseries of material life we remain still going home, still a devotee who comes through the heat, still a devotee who is dying just like an ordinary man.

Prabhupāda: It is an argument like this, that you have gone to a physician for curing your disease; why you are not cured? This is nonsense question. It will take some time to be cured. Do you mean to say as soon as you go to the physician, you become cured? Do you think? Why don't you answer like that? A foolish man will say like that, that "You have taken to Kṛṣṅa consciousness. Why you are now suffering?" Yes, suffering will be... Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṅaśyati [Bg 9.31].

[He quickly becomes righteous and attains lasting peace. O son of Kuntī, declare it boldly that My devotee never perishes.]

So the assurance is there. You take the treatment. Why do you expect, immediately you go to the physician? A father gets the daughter married, expecting a child. Does it mean as soon as she's married, immediately child? And if a rascal says, "Oh, she is married, and there is no child?" Because he's a rascal. You must wait. Now she is married, it is sure she'll have child. That's a fact. But if the rascal wants, "Now my daughter is married. There is no child?" What is this nonsense? This question is like that, that "You have come to Kṛṣṅa consciousness. Why you are suffering?" You cannot answer this?

Devotee: Yes. Also you give the example of the cat catching up the mouse and the cat...

Prabhupāda: That is another thing. But first thing is that why do you want immediately effect? That is foolishness. The effect will be there. Therefore it is called dhairya. Utsāhād dhairyāt. Dhairya means patience. You act, God acting with patience. The result will be niścaya. The result will be there. These things are required. Utsāhād dhairyāt niścayāt tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt, sato vṛtteḥ sādhu-saṅge ṣaḍbhir bhaktiḥ prasidhyati. So why you should have a foolish person—"Now I come to Kṛṣṅa consciousness. I have become immediately everything. Give up everything"? Why do you think like this? The same example: the girl is married, now it is sure that she'll have child. Wait. Niścaya. When there is husband and wife there will be child. There is no doubt about it, but wait. Why do you expect immediately child on the day of marriage? This is foolishness.

So you should answer these rascals like that. "You cannot expect immediately. But we are on the path. We have just entered." One enters into the school. Does it mean in one year or six months he becomes M.A.? He has to wait. But he has entered the school; there is expectation of his passing M.A. examination. But one who has not entered school, loitering in the street, he has no... He's hopeless. But this man has hope. Wait. The same example: if one girl is not married, then where is the question of child? Everything has to wait. Therefore it is said, utsāhād dhairyāt. One should have proper enthusiasm and patience. That is wanted. How one foolishly expects the result immediately? You sow the seed; you water it; it grows; then it becomes big tree; then pick the fruit; then eat. Immediately you cannot expect, immediately you have got. As soon as you get the seed, you have got the thing, undoubtedly. But you must give time the seed to fructify. That required.

Guest (2): What exists between the planet Gokula and the [indistinct] Kṛṣṅa?

Prabhupāda: There is a planet who is full of cows, Gokula. That's it. Surabhīr abhipālayantam. Cintāmaṅi-prakara-sadmasu kalpa-vṛkṣa-lakṣāvṛteṣu surabhīr abhipālayantam [Bs 5.29]. Kṛṣṅa is engaged there in tending cows, surabhi cows. That is Gokula. That planet is full of cows.

Guest (2): What I mean to say is what exists between any two abodes, plenary expansions of Śrī Kṛṣṅa?

Prabhupāda: What exists?

Guest (2): In the two abodes of the plenary expansion of Kṛṣṅa. What exists?

Prabhupāda: Plenary? Yes, Kṛṣṅa is expanding millions and millions forms. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṅa-puruṣaṁ nava-yauvanaṁ ca [Bs 5.33].

[I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who is inaccessible to the Vedas, but obtainable by pure unalloyed devotion of the soul, who is without a second, who is not subject to decay, is without a beginning, whose form is endless, who is the beginning, and the eternal puruṣa; yet He is a person possessing the beauty of blooming youth.]

That is Kṛṣṅa. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg 18.61].

[The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart, O Arjuna, and is directing the wanderings of all living entities, who are seated as on a machine, made of the material energy.]

He is expanded, and He's living in your heart, my heart, ant's heart, everyone's heart. These are expansions, Paramātmā.

Guest (9) [Indian man]: Sir, his point is what exists between the planets?

Guest (2): This intervening medium.

Prabhupāda: So you do not know the outer space? Outer space? The space is there. Just this planet, sun planet, there is space between. You do not know this? Eh?

Guest (2): Do you mean to say there is no space between His planets?

Prabhupāda: I mean to say... Now you mean to say also. You do not know there is space difference between one planet to another?

Guest (2): Unless it is bounded by space.

Prabhupāda: So whatever it may be, there is difference. Just like you are existing, I am existing. There is space. So what is the difficulty?

Guest (2): No, but actually it is beyond space and time. Transcendental.

Guest (9): Spiritual planets, he means to say.

Guest (2): They are beyond space.

Guest (4): They are beyond time and space.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So what does he mean? What does he mean?

Guest (10): What is your point?

Prabhupāda: The point is that... You can explain in this way, that goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhūtaḥ [Bs 5.37].

[I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, residing in His own realm, Goloka, with Rādhā, resembling His own spiritual figure, the embodiment of the ecstatic potency possessed of the sixty-four artistic activities, in the company of Her confidantes [sakhīs], embodiments of the extensions of Her bodily form, permeated and vitalized by His ever-blissful spiritual rasa.]

Kṛṣṅa is in the Goloka planet, which is far, far away from our planet, but still He is everywhere. That is the difference. That you cannot imagine. In our material knowledge you cannot imagine that. But that is the fact. Kṛṣṅa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati, tad aham aśnāmi [Bg 9.26]:

[If one offers Me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit or water, I will accept it.]

"Anyone offering Me in devotion patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam, I eat." Now, Kṛṣṅa is living far, far away in the Goloka planet. How He can eat? That is your imagining. But Kṛṣṅa says, "Yes, I do." That is Kṛṣṅa. Although He is far, far away, He is within your heart. That you cannot imagine, how it is possible. That is your material knowledge. But you have to accept from the statement of śāstra that although He is far, far away—within your heart. Aṅḍāntara-stha-para... He is within the atom also. So that you cannot imagine. That requires a different knowledge, Vedic knowledge. The material knowledge will not help you, but you cannot imagine. You have to accept Vedic knowledge. What is stated in the Vedas, that you have to accept. That's all. Otherwise there is no possibility. Therefore to understand Kṛṣṅa and Kṛṣṅa's activities, you have to learn from Kṛṣṅa. That is Bhagavad-gītā. You cannot manufacture your knowledge. That is not... Because you are defective—your senses are imperfect—so whatever knowledge you get through your senses, that is all imperfect. You cannot get perfect knowledge by your imperfect senses. That is not possible. Therefore the Vedic injunction is tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet [Muṅḍaka Upaniṣad 1.2.12].

[To understand these things properly, one must humbly approach, with firewood in hand, a spiritual master who is learned in the Vedas and firmly devoted to the Absolute Truth.]

In order to learn that transcendental science you have to approach a guru who knows it.

tad viddhi praṅipātena paripraśnena sevayā upadekṣyanti te jñānaṁ jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ [Bg 4.34]

[Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth.]

This is a different phase of knowledge. By your material calculation it will be difficult. The same thing, Kṛṣṅa says, aśnāmi: "I eat." So Kṛṣṅa is far, far away. How does He eat?

Guest (2): It is said there that holy planets exist the...

Prabhupāda: Who says? Who says? Who is the sayer? An imperfect person, that's all.

Guest (2): No, it is in the Bhāgavatam. That's what I am saying.

Prabhupāda: Oh, what is that?

Guest (2): That holy planets exist between the lotus stem that's sprouting from navel of Kṛṣṅa. But there are many planets, millions of planets [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That is all explained there. Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṅḍa-nāthāḥ [Bs 5.48].

[Brahmā and other lords of the mundane worlds, appearing from the pores of hair of Mahā-Viṣṅu, remain alive as long as the duration of one exhalation of the latter [Mahā-Viṣṅu]. I adore the primeval Lord Govinda of whose subjective personality Mahā-Viṣṅu is the portion of portion.]

Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya. The Mahā-Viṣṅu is breathing, and with the breathing innumerable planets are coming, brahmāṅḍas are coming out. Yasya eka niśvasita-kālam atha avalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṅḍa-nāthāḥ. Jagad-aṅḍa means universe, and jagad-aṅḍa-nāthaḥ means Brahmā. Millions of Brahmās living within the breathing period of Mahā-Viṣṅu. So we have to accept this Vedic knowledge. You cannot compare with your limited knowledge. That is not...

Guest (4): His argument is that everything is bound by space.

Prabhupāda: Yes, space is there.

Guest (4): No, it's in the pits of the...

Prabhupāda: Space. Space grows, Brahman. Bṛhatvād bṛhannatvāt.[?] Brahman means the greatest. The space is considered to be the greatest. So it is not only greatest but it is expanding more and more. It is becoming greater and greater. Just like some children, they made some foam, soap. It becomes bigger, bigger, bigger. It is like that. It comes from the breathing period, but as soon as come out it becomes bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger. That is bṛhatvād bṛhannatvāt: Brahman, the greatest. A small seed of banyan tree, very small, you cannot... It becomes bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger, and so big tree with the leaves. You see daily how it is coming. Can you make such seed, you scientist? Can you make? Then? Why do you compare your poor knowledge with Kṛṣṅa's knowledge? That is your poor fund of knowledge. You are thinking that "Kṛṣṅa may be like me." You can just compare the small banyan tree seed, just like a mustard seed, and it contains such a big tree; not only big tree, millions of seeds also, containing another millions of big trees. Can you make such seed? Hmm? You scientists, can you make? You tell me. Can you prepare that seed? Then what you are scientist? See Kṛṣṅa's science. Don't compare yourself with Kṛṣṅa's science even.

Guest (2): No, one thing, if you say Goloka is infinite, we should be existing within Gokula. How is it that we are without Gokula?

Prabhupāda: Yes, we are within Kṛṣṅa; therefore you are within Gokula.

Guest (2): Kṛṣṅa is within us.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And Kṛṣṅa is without. That is Kṛṣṅa, antar bahiḥ. Antar bahiḥ. Kuntī says in her prayers that "Kṛṣṅa, You are antar bahiḥ. Still, people cannot understand. You are... Without, You are existing, and within, You are... Still, they are so rascal, they cannot understand." Antar bahiḥ. Kṛṣṅa is without, Kṛṣṅa is within, but they cannot see. That is their misfortune. Aṅḍāntara-stha-paramāṅu-cayāntara-stham [Bs 5.35].

[He is an undifferentiated entity as there is no distinction between potency and the possessor thereof. In His work of creation of millions of worlds, His potency remains inseparable. All the universes exist in Him and He is present in His fullness in every one of the atoms that are scattered throughout the universe, at one and the same time. Such is the primeval Lord whom I adore.]

Kṛṣṅa is within the paramāṅu, atom. Can you find out Kṛṣṅa? He says, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd... [Bg 18.61].

[The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart, O Arjuna, and is directing the wanderings of all living entities, who are seated as on a machine, made of the material energy.]

He is within your heart. Can you find out? Then where is your science? It is already indicated that He is here. Find out. How you can find out? The dimension of the soul is given, one ten-thousandth part of the upper portion of the hair. The tip of the hair, you divide into ten thousand parts, and that one part is the dimension of the soul. How can you find out? Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya śatadhā kalpitasya ca jīvo bhāgaḥ sa vijñeyaḥ [Cc Madhya 19.140].

[If we divide the tip of a hair into a hundred parts and then take one of these parts and divide it again into a hundred parts, that very fine division is the size of but one of the numberless living entities. They are all cit-kaṅa, particles of spirit, not matter.]

Everything is written there. Now you find out the measurement. You cannot find out measurement of the tip of the hair. And you have to divide into ten thousand parts. Then the measurement of the soul will come. So how can you do it? But they are described in the śāstra. So go and see ārati. [end]