Room Conversation with C.I.D. Chief

Prabhupāda: So you expand it. A dog is thinking, "I am this body. I am bulldog," "I am greyhound." And man is also thinking, "I am American," "I am Indian." But they do not know their real identity, and they are fighting like dogs. And this is going on in the name of civilization. And when we put forward Bhagavad-gītā, the first lesson is that aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase [Bg 2.11]:

[The Blessed Lord said: While speaking learned words, you are mourning for what is not worthy of grief. Those who are wise lament neither for the living nor the dead.]

"Arjuna, you are talking like a very learned man, but you are lamenting about the body. But actually...," gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṅḍitāḥ, "so far the body is con..., this is lump of matter. So whether it is dead or alive, nobody seriously think of it, no learned, paṅḍita." Of course, those who are fools, rascal, they can take it. But those who are actually learned, they do not talk about this body. Now upon this statement, just see the world situation. Everyone is busy on the concept of body. So what is the position of the world?

Apaṅḍita, ignorance. And such people are going on as learned scholars, politicians and leaders and so on. So how there can be peace? If you bring different types of dogs—greyhound and bulldog and Indian dog—and bring them, the "United Dog Association," [laughter] so will there be peace? That is the position. I declared in Melbourne in a public meeting that this United Nation is the unity of barking dog. I told. It was published in the paper. They also criticized me, "The Swami has come to hound." [laughter] But that is actually the fact. If you become impartial judge, not on behalf of CID or anyone, then you see the actual.

CID Chief: That is the truth, eternal truth. What you have said...

Prabhupāda: No, we are speaking about Kṛṣṅa. So if I say that "Kṛṣṅa says like this," and it is a fact, then what is our fault? But they are taking very serious. Just like especially nowadays in Western country, they are opposing, that "This philosophy is brainwash." So this is our position. Satyaṁ brūyāt priyaṁ brūyāt mā brūyāt satyam apriyam [Sanskrit Proverb].

The world situation is that you can speak truth if it is palatable. And if it is unpalatable, don't speak. But this thing cannot be maintained when you are preaching spiritual life. There we cannot cheat. Spiritual life must be declared very frankly. Not that we have to declare; it is already declared. Kṛṣṅa says, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanam, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg 2.13]:

[As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change.]

The spirit soul is within this body. The body is different from the spirit soul, and as it is changing—the body is changing—similarly, after death, so-called death... Because spirit has no death, no birth. Na jāyate na mriyate vā. So this knowledge is the beginning of spiritual life. And if you are preaching, they are opposing us. India also opposing. This is our position. They take Bhagavad-gītā and they mislead them. And we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. That is our fault. So what we can do? Can you suggest?

CID Chief: [laughs] I am a layman. What...?

Prabhupāda: No... You should be very kind upon... And what we can do? And if I cheat in the name of Bhagavad-gītā, then I become a great leader.

CID Chief: All nation has turned... An extraordinary order, your spreading the message of Kṛṣṅa to the world, message of Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: So at least Indians should join this movement. They're feeling the weight, the Western countries. They are opposing means that those who are thoughtful, they are thinking that "If this movement allowed to go on, then our civilization will be finished." That is their... That... They are right. They are right. If these young men, they go on under my instruction, I shall finish their civilization.

Devotee: Jaya!

Prabhupāda: That's a fact. No meat-eating in Western countries. [chuckling] No intoxication. No illicit sex. No gambling. That means their life is finished. And we are imitating, that "We are becoming advanced in civilization." And we are condemned.

CID Chief: But most of the people realize that that is not the real..., real sign of advancement.

Prabhupāda: "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss."

CID Chief: We are helpless. I assume that will stand. But actually what they call advancement in general, it is not; even the people themselves are realizing that...

Prabhupāda: Yoṣitāṁ saṅgī-saṅgam [SB 5.5.2].

[One can attain the path of liberation from material bondage only by rendering service to highly advanced spiritual personalities. These personalities are impersonalists and devotees. Whether one wants to merge into the Lord's existence or wants to associate with the Personality of Godhead, one should render service to the mahātmās. For those who are not interested in such activities, who associate with people fond of women and sex, the path to hell is wide open. The mahātmās are equipoised. They do not see any difference between one living entity and another. They are very peaceful and are fully engaged in devotional service. They are devoid of anger, and they work for the benefit of everyone. They do not behave in any abominable way. Such people are known as mahātmās.]

CID Chief: ...that advancement has led them to some sort of monotony, which they want to avoid, and they want to...

Prabhupāda: No, first of all, we must know the destiny of life, what is the destiny of life. Then whether we are advancing or degrading, then it will be decided. But they do not know what is destiny of life. They are so fools, they are thinking that this life, say, for hundred years, and after hundred years everything finished. The Russian big, big professor, they think like that. I went to Moscow, and I talked with Indologist. They say, "Swāmījī, after this body is finished, everything is finished."

CID Chief: I read somewhere that this scientist, Russian scientist, was making research through electronics as to what happens to the soul when man dies, what actually happens when man dies. What is...

Prabhupāda: No, no. You may study with electronics and other, but it is a open secret. The soul, the soul departs from the body, and it is a lump of matter. What is the difference between a lump of matter and the dead body? We see practically a motorcar, when it is no more workable, it is a lump of matter. What is the value of it? Who cares for the motorcar? Of course, we do not see here, but in the Western countries there are many places, oh, hundreds and thousands of cars are...

Gopāla Kṛṣṅa: Junkyard.

Prabhupāda: Hundreds and thousands. Here, of course, we have not so many cars, but there in many cities I have seen. They have gathered together, and then they are pressed and thrown to the iron factory and again melted in fire of... So similarly, when the life is not there, it is a lump of matter. So it is lump of matter.

Just like the motorcar: when it was being driven by driver, it has value, but when it is not to be driven anymore, it has no value. Similarly... But the motorcar is the same. It is the driver that is important. Similarly, the soul is important, not this body. But the modern civilization, accepting this body as the important, and they have no information of the driver, soul.

CID Chief: They try to decorate it, a body, dead body. It is...

Gopāla Kṛṣṅa: Decorating a dead body.

CID Chief: No, but I think this..., a lot of awakening in the mind of people.

Prabhupāda: This education is lacking throughout the whole world, and we have started this movement to give this education, and people are against. That means they have become so fallen that they cannot even take up right knowledge. The same proverb: "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." So we have to struggle against this darkness—but we have to do it. This is our mission. We cannot stop it. It is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, para-upakāra. People are kept in darkness, and...

That is not Caitanya Mahāprabhu... Kṛṣṅa's mission, actually. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata [Bg 4.7]:

[Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion—at that time I descend Myself.]

"When people are misguided," tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham, "at that time I come down." So the whole world is misguided on this bodily concept of life, and this Kṛṣṅa consciousness movement means Kṛṣṅa has come down in the shape of this movement. That is the real fact. Nāma-rūpe kṛṣṅa kali-kāle avatāra [Cc Ādi 17.22]:

[”In this Age of Kali, the holy name of the Lord, the Hare Kṛṣṅa mahā-mantra, is the incarnation of Lord Kṛṣṅa. Simply by chanting the holy name, one associates with the Lord directly. Anyone who does this is certainly delivered.]

"In the Kali-yuga Kṛṣṅa is incarnated in the form of His name, Hare Kṛṣṅa." Therefore in this age... That...

Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṅasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet [SB 12.3.51].

[My dear King, although Kali-yuga is an ocean of faults, there is still one good quality about this age: Simply by chanting the Hare Kṛṣṅa mahā-mantra, one can become free from material bondage and be promoted to the transcendental kingdom.]

This is the injunction of the śāstras. Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṅasya, simply by chanting the holy name of Kṛṣṅa, mukta-saṅga, he becomes free from all this material contamination, and paraṁ vrajet, he goes back home, back to... So this name is not different. Because Kṛṣṅa is absolute, there is no difference between His name and Himself. And that is confirmed in the śāstra, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommends, śāstra recommends. We're just following their footprints there. Kaler doṣa-nidhe rājann asti hy eko mahān guṅaḥ [SB 12.3.51]. This Kali-yuga is the ocean of faults.

So... But there is one great opportunity in this ocean of faults. What is that? Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṅasya mukta-saṅgaḥ param... That is a great facility to these rascals, that if they chant Hare Kṛṣṅa mantra, they become free from all contamination and become fit for going back home, back to Godhead. So this is a authorized movement. It is not a concoction, manufactured idea. So we are doing that. Unfortunately, the people... Not all, but majority...

CID Chief: It has gained tremendous and spontaneous response, and people, all people... It has... The strength has shown me that people have taken liking from their soul, not just...

Prabhupāda: No, these young men, they have taken seriously. Otherwise what business they have got to join me? They have taken it seriously. And with their help I am little able to push on this movement. But they have taken it seriously. And big, big learned scholars, they have opined that this movement is not going to die.

CID Chief: I saw the photograph yesterday, Vinoba Bhave, meeting with Vinoba Bhave.

Gopāla Kṛṣṅa: They're showing the pictures of our Wardha meeting. I just showed him pictures about our Wardha meeting.

CID Chief: Acarya Bhave. Vinoba Bhave.

Prabhupāda: Ah. Vinoba Bhave is also... He has issued some statement.

Gopāla Kṛṣṅa: He said, "What Prabhupāda has done, no one has done." Something like that.

CID Chief: Otherwise, how can the West would have come to know about Kṛṣṅa?

Gopāla Kṛṣṅa: These are all books by Prabhupāda. All. I was telling our book sales...

Prabhupāda: Where is that telegram we have received yesterday?

Gopāla Kṛṣṅa: I was telling him our book sales are eight to ten lakh rupees a day. All by Gurujī. All. Can you imagine, Śrīla Prabhupāda writes one book a month.

[break] ...big books. One lakh seventeen thousand big books; 90,737 medium books, medium books in the smaller; 63,322 small books; and 437,420..., that is, four lakhs of Back to Godhead. Total in one week: seven lakhs and 9,236 books. In one week...

CID Chief: There won't be such a big..., such a big [indistinct] picture book in [indistinct]...

Gopāla Kṛṣṅa: Prabhupāda produces one book a month still.

Prabhupāda: Now... I am talking to you as a CID official. Now, here is my Dictaphone.

Gopāla Kṛṣṅa: This is how Prabhupāda dictates.

Prabhupāda: I... [clicks Dictaphone switch] It is not working. [Prabhupāda plays back section of Bhāgavatam dictation he has made] This is a Sanskrit verse. Putra-somaka. So the whole night I write books, and then this is typed. In the daytime they are typing. And then it is composed, and then it is made into book, and we take so much trouble to sell it, as you have heard the selling of, and we collect money and they send money, ten lakhs of rupees, in India, and I construct the temple, [indistinct]. So is that my fault?

CID Chief: No, no, no. The man who would say it is in the fault, either he is mad or it would be mistake.

Prabhupāda: In this old age—eighty-one years I am—I am working day and night just to preach this Kṛṣṅa consciousness, and...

CID Chief: This is absolutely a service to God and humanity. Whatever tenet you have... Whatever comes out of your mouth, word, becomes a religious...

Devotee: Amṛta, nectar.

CID Chief: ...out of which you write books, out of the product... From the proceeds of that book, you constructed a [indistinct]. It is wholeheartedly towards the God. Whole life is devoted to God.

Prabhupāda: And for these books, as author, if I would have taken royalty, my daily income would have been one lakh, fifty thousand. I don't take a single farthing. Whatever two cāpāṭis they give, that's all.

CID Chief: Then if that had been the objective, goal, so much of this [indistinct] not would have come in reality. [indistinct] money-making.

Prabhupāda: I have no appetite also. [laughs] I do not eat too much. Whatever, one or two cāpāṭis, they give, I take. That's all. This is my royalty.

CID Chief: But any... Any... How this cognoscenti, they react to this in America? Do they have any...

Prabhupāda: There also... Here, here people are suspecting that I am getting money from CIA, and they are also suspecting that I am cheating people and getting money.

CID Chief: Yeah, but do they have any prohibition over these religious discourses, kīrtana on the roads...?

Prabhupāda: No, not... Prohibition has yet come. But individual cases, they have been instituted, and we are fighting by spending so much money to defend.

CID Chief: Yeah, but I read in some paper that somewhere they had this county courts, that ruling that people are disturbed by the kīrtanas and this for twenty-four hours and...

Prabhupāda: No. We have got judgment. [aside:] You read those judgment, judges? We have got counterjudgments also.

Gopāla Kṛṣṅa: Now this is from Philadelphia, Judge Alfred Longo, U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania. The Philadelphia decree was typical and included the following points: "Kṛṣṅa consciousness is recognized as an authentic religion. To broadcast the glories of God to all people, members of the Kṛṣṅa consciousness society can perform saṅkīrtana, a missionary activity including chanting, dancing, and playing cymbals and drums, the dissemination of the word of God through preaching and reading aloud from religious literature, the distribution of religious literature, sanctified food and flowers to the public, and the solicitation and acceptance of contribution. In performing saṅkīrtana devotees can go wherever people gather: streets, libraries and other public places." So we also had decisions... Eventually we win almost all cases.

Prabhupāda: And we have got good support from the scholarly section, by big, big professors. Even one priest, Mr. Cox, he is forming an association to support this movement in Harvard University. So we have got supporters also.

CID Chief: People are also coming in a good number to join this organization.

Prabhupāda: Indian community, they are also supporting us.

Gopāla Kṛṣṅa: All the Indians abroad.

Prabhupāda: Abroad. They got life. There was no temple. There was no hari-saṅkīrtana. Now they are feeling obliged. In London every Sunday all Indian community, they come. And during the Janmāṣṭamī, twelve thousand people. Twelve thousand people, and the contribution was... What is? Twenty-five thousand pounds or...? One pound equal to twenty rupees.

Gopāla Kṛṣṅa: Fourteen rupees. Now it's fourteen rupees. It's coming down every day.

Prabhupāda: And they are giving... Practically our temple is going on by the contribution of the Indians. They are giving goods—rice, dāl and ghee and our... No scarcity.

CID Chief: The Lord Kṛṣṅa is the Deity which is very close to most of the Indians. It's a common...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Sometimes they ask that "What is your position, Kṛṣṅa consciousness movement, in India?" And in India everyone is Kṛṣṅa conscious. Everyone.

CID Chief: Because in India if you read from beginning, like the childhood, all His childhood plays and mischiefs and this from the birth, then childhood.

Prabhupāda: Every house. Even there are Muhammadan house, they observe Janmāṣṭamī. I know that. One professor in Allahabad, Kavi or something like... I went to his place. He's a great devotee of Kṛṣṅa.

Gopāla Kṛṣṅa: There's one big movie star... Not very big. Sanjaya Khan. He's Muslim, but he wears a pendant of Kṛṣṅa always. He's our member. He's promised us a donation of ten thousand rupees after his picture is released. Many Muslims we have members now.

Prabhupāda: No, he's Indian Muslim. We have got Iranian Muslims. They are our devotees. Many there.

CID Chief: Well, sir, I would like to remain here, but now I have to go to my office.

Prabhupāda: So give prasāda. Bring prasāda.

Gopāla Kṛṣṅa: Prasāda also.

Prabhupāda: No, bring here. Jaya.

CID Chief: Just touch my hand, that's all, and make me pure bodily...

Prabhupāda: Thank you. Thank you. You come whenever you find time.

Gopāla Kṛṣṅa: He comes regularly.

CID Chief: I was longing to come, so today I came. It's my great fortune that...

Prabhupāda: No... That.... Even as CID officer, you can note: this is my business. I am working hard, producing these books, selling, and the telegram you see, and bringing that money here. So if you think that I am still faulty, then what can I do?

CID Chief: From the beginning I have made it clear that I come here and to get some mental peace.

Prabhupāda: Thank you very much.

Gopāla Kṛṣṅa: We have Chinese Bhagavad-gītā. Actually, Trivikrama Swami has just come. He's been preaching in Taiwan.

CID Chief: Accha? [break] [end]