Room conversation

Morning Darśana and Room Conversation Ramkrishna Bajaj and friends

Girirāja: This is Mr. Sharma, the head technician at the airport, radar.

Prabhupāda: Oh. When I went to your MIT, I challenged that "Where is that technological department where a dead man can be brought into life?" It was interesting speech. The students gathered. This body is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā as machine. Do you know that? This body is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā as machine. Yantrārūḍhāni māyayā.

īśvaraḥ sarva bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati bhrāmāyan sarva bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā [Bg 18.61]

[The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart, O Arjuna, and is directing the wanderings of all living entities, who are seated as on a machine, made of the material energy.]

Just like you make a tour by driving a motorcar, similarly, the jīvātmā is touring all over the universe, riding on this machine. This is machine. So...

Aiye aiye. Hare Kṛṣṅa. [guest enters] [Hindi] Aiye.

We have arranged for your prasāda. Yantrārūḍhāni māyayā. This is machine. This body is machine made by the material energy, as all other machine are made by the kṣitir-āp-tejo marud-vyoma—earth, water, air, fire. These are the ingredients, any machine. Suppose it is made of iron. So iron is another form of earth. So as all other machines are made with these material elements, similarly, this body is also made with the material elements, and it is yantra. It is particularly mentioned. But this yantra is not ordinary yantra. You cannot make it. But it is yantra. It is made by somebody, and the ingredients are the material elements. So where is that technology? It is made of matter, and it is made by somebody as other machines are made with the material... [break] ...and made by somebody. So where is that advancement of technology? A motorcar, when stops, a technology department can repair it and again it runs. So where is that advancement of technology that when this machine stops, you run on, again repair it? This was my challenge in your institution. Can you answer this? You have got so many advancement—the nuclear energy and everything. But why you cannot give life to the machine stopped? Why?

Mr. Sharma: There's no soul in it.

Prabhupāda: That is the fact, we know. We know that is a fact, that... My point is that the modern age, they are very much proud of advanced technology. So where is that knowledge? And why people do not tax their brains to get this knowledge? This is very important subject matter. But where is that knowledge? And why they do not try to do it? We get information from the Supreme Personality of Godhead that this jīva, the driver... Not driver; the passenger. We are passengers, and driver is God, and machine made by material energy, māyā... Yantrārūḍhāni māyayā. The similarity is there. Just like motorcar is manufactured by somebody and the passenger is there and the driver is there, similarly, this is a machine made by māyā. I am the passenger, and God is driver. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati bhrāmāyan [Bg 18.61].

[The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart, O Arjuna, and is directing the wanderings of all living entities, who are seated as on a machine, made of the material energy.]

Bhrāmāyan, bhrāmāyan, the driver, the passenger or the owner, he is asking, "Mr. Driver, you go this way." So He's driving. Just like the same—Arjuna is asking Kṛṣṅa, senayor ubhayor madhye rathaṁ sthāpaya me 'cyuta [Bg 1.21]:

[Arjuna said: O infallible one, please draw my chariot between the two armies so that I may see who is present here, who is desirous of fighting, and with whom I must contend in this great battle attempt.]

"Just between these two parties of soldiers, please keep my chariot." The same thing. The chariot driver, He is the Supersoul. In this body there are two souls. Kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata [Bg 13.3]. That he's also kṣetrajñā. Kṣetra is this body, and kṣetrajñā, one knows this body... Just like I know it is my finger. I never say "I finger." It is my finger. So similarly, the driver also can say, "It is my car," and the proprietor also can say. So two persons—one driver and one passenger, or the proprietor. And the body is machine. The subjects are there. Why you do not try to understand the subject matter? Then what is your advancement? That is my challenge. Why you are so much proud of your advancement of knowledge? What is this knowledge? Tell me. You are young man. I am giving you the challenge. Either you admit that you are not advanced or make advancement. Why you set aside this difficult subject matter and become proud by making a small machine that you are advancing? Where is your advancement? Hmm? [Hindi] He is Mr. Bajaj, the proprietor of the Bajaj Electricity.

Mr. Bajaj: We know each other.

Indian man (2): Mahārāja, in the context of the universe, the technological and scientific advancement is very, very insignificant. But as far as human beings are concerned, they feel that they have achieved great deal.

Prabhupāda: What? You cannot give life.

Indian man (2): Because there is a change from the past. So they feel that there is a difference. But that is at a very low level...

Prabhupāda: That is my point, that you are becoming so much proud of your technological, but what you have done?

Indian man (2): It is very insignificant.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is my point. Why you become falsely proud that you have done so advancement that you don't care for God, don't care for the original manufacturer? That is your fault.

Indian man (2): The other day there was a doctor who had come from America for transplantation of kidney, and he had given a lecture in the Rotary Club. I was there. Now they give so much importance to the person who is able to transplant kidney from one body to the other, but how about the whole human being or the universe which has been created by God? Now, this is just a very, very insignificant thing which is already there which is just transplanted. But they feel so happy and proud.

Prabhupāda: That is my point: falsely proud.

Indian man (3): And Mahārāja, are they able to increase the life by a single moment?

Prabhupāda: They cannot.

Indian man (3): They say they have achieved so much. Are they able to increase it by even a single moment?

Prabhupāda: No. This breathing is given there, that "You must breathe so many million times. Bās, finished." Just like you wind the watch. It will run or go round so many times. As soon as the finish, then stop.

Indian man (2): Unwound, it is finished.

Prabhupāda: The energy is limited. So by the yogic process they increase because they stop breathing. Breathing is limited. Just like you have got bank balance, two hundred thousand. If you don't spend, then it remains.

Indian man (3): But you got to breathe. You can't stop breathing.

Prabhupāda: No, no, by yogic process, you can stop breathing.

Indian man (3): Stop breathing or lengthen it?

Prabhupāda: Stop breathing means you don't spend. You have got a limited breathing period. By yogic process, you stop breathing, but you remain. That is mystic yoga. So similarly, you can simply increase your life by not using the breathing process. That is praṅāyāma. That is praṅāyāma. So... But you cannot exceed the limit. That is not possible. [Hindi with guest]

You don't keep hygienic life. [Hindi] You infect. That is your fault. [Hindi] To live ordinarily healthy life, that is... But if you transgress the hygienic principle, if you transgress the law of nature, you must suffer. Similarly, we are suffering in this material world—the covering is there—because we wanted to transgress the laws of God. Kṛṣṅa bhuliya jīva bhoga vañcha kare [Prema-vivarta].

[When an individual soul forgets his eternal relationship with God and tries to lord it over the material nature or resources, that condition, that forgetful condition, is called māyā, or illusion.]

When we forget our relationship with Kṛṣṅa, that "Kṛṣṅa is the original master, and I am the servant," as soon as you forget this relationship, this is contamination. Immediately. Everyone is trying to become another Kṛṣṅa. This is struggle. Here in this material world you'll find everyone is trying to become very, very big—big leader, big politician, big businessman—big, big, big. But he is not big. That is the disease. He is not big, and he's trying to become big.

Indian man (3): This Khorana has put out one gene, and if it keeps growing, it will really play havoc with artificial development.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Girirāja: He says Dr. Khorana, he has made a gene.

Prabhupāda: Gene?

Indian man (2): Living cell.

Prabhupāda: What it is?

Girirāja: Yes, they take it that the hereditary qualities that a person inherits is determined by these genes. So now they're thinking that if they can control the genes, they can create their own type of human being according to their own...

Prabhupāda: They can't. That, this nonsense speaking, is going on throughout the history, but they'll never be able. That is the fact. "We are trying," "We shall do in future"—these things are going on. But this is all stories. We don't believe in these nonsense things. They'll never be happy. That is not possible. Therefore I challenged your technology that "Where is that department? Do it!" First of all do it. Suppose if a man is in business. He may say that "I am trying to become a millionaire," but he cannot say that "I am millionaire." So the so-called scientist, "Yes, we are trying." You are trying, that's all right. But when you become, then you call scientist. There is no possibility, and because you are trying, I have to accept you as scientist? Recently in California University one professor came. He has gained the Nobel Prize, chemical evolution. They are trying to prove that life is generated by chemical evolution. So in that meeting I had my one student. He's Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara. He's also big chemist. So he knows. He talks with me. He has got the idea. He has written one book, Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṅa Consciousness. So he challenged that "Suppose if I give you the chemicals, can you produce life?" The answer—"That I cannot say." Why he talks nonsense? He is theorizing that life is made of chemicals, but if you give the chemicals, why you cannot make life? When I was in South Africa... Where is that? Pretoria or something?

Girirāja: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: There are many factories for chicken-killing, chicken incubator. So one of the students, worker there, I said, "Suppose this is a chicken factory. So take one egg and analyze the chemicals. There is some white substance, yellow substance; it is covered with some cell. You can do it, and put that in the incubator and get a chicken. Why don't you do that?" The rascal could not answer. "Don't talk of big, big life. Make a chicken."

Indian man (2): Just a small chicken.

Prabhupāda: And this rascal cannot do that. And still, they'll talk big, big words. What do you think? Are they not rascals? These rascals, they are talking big, big words. First of all prove. Make one egg. Then talk of big, big brain. Make one egg. It is... Everyone can see, there is some white chemicals and some yellow chemicals, and it is covered, and it... You analyze and combine the chemical in the same way, and put it in the incubator and get one chicken. Why? You are technologist. Say why they cannot do it. And when they cannot do it, why they talk so big, big word, mislead others and mislead himself?

Mr. Bajaj: No, they feel so proud because...

Prabhupāda: Foolish.

Mr. Bajaj: ...God's creation is so huge and vast and unfathomable. If they are able to unravel even a small part of it which was not known to human beings beforehand, so they are so proud. They don't say that they can do what God can do.

Prabhupāda: No, it is known. It is known. Kṛṣṅa says, mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ [Bg 15.7]: "This life is My part and parcel." As soon as you study what is this life, you understand Kṛṣṅa, quality, what is Kṛṣṅa. So here is the hint, that Kṛṣṅa said mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ. So it is very small particle. That is also mentioned in the śāstra:

keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya satadhā kalpitasya ca jīvo bhāgasya vijñeyaḥ sa anantāya kalpate [Cc Madhya 19.140]

[If we divide the tip of a hair into a hundred parts and then take one of these parts and divide it again into a hundred parts, that very fine division is the size of but one of the numberless living entities. They are all cit-kaṅa, particles of spirit, not matter.]

The measurement of soul is given there in the śāstra: one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. So everything is there. It is not matter. And that is instructed in the Bhagavad-gītā. Nāyaṁ śāstra... Acchedyo 'yam adāhyo 'yam akledyo 'śoṣya eva ca [Bg 2.24]:

[This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried. He is everlasting, all-pervading, unchangeable, immovable and eternally the same.]

"This spiritual spark cannot be cut into pieces." Acchedyo 'yam adāhyo 'yam: "It cannot be burned into the fire." So...

[aside:] Come on.

So... But these rascals, they are seeing that "The body is burnt into ashes, so everything is finished." And Kṛṣṅa says, adāhyo 'yam: "It cannot be burned." So it remains. And that transmigrates. And that small particle you have no eyes to see. You say, therefore, "Why shall I believe transmigration?" How nature's law is working so subtle way? Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṅāni guṅaiḥ karmāṅi sarvaśaḥ [Bg 3.27].

[The bewildered spirit soul, under the influence of the three modes of material nature, thinks himself to be the doer of activities, which are in actuality carried out by nature.]

But the ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā. I say rascal, not manufactured by me. Ahaṅkāra vimūḍha. Vimūḍha means a great rascal. Mūḍha means rascal, ass; and vi, viśeṣa, particularly, first-class ass, vimūḍha. Under false pride, he is thinking, "I am everything." Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti... [Bg 3.27]. "I can do anything by science, by this technology." That's all. Vimūḍhātmā, great rascals. And these great rascals, they are leading the world. Therefore people are in darkness. They have become leaders, the so-called scientists and educationists and political leaders. All set of rascals, and they have become leaders. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31].

[Persons who are strongly entrapped by the consciousness of enjoying material life, and who have therefore accepted as their leader or guru a similar blind man attached to external sense objects, cannot understand that the goal of life is to return home, back to Godhead, and engage in the service of Lord Viṣṅu. As blind men guided by another blind man miss the right path and fall into a ditch, materially attached men led by another materially attached man are bound by the ropes of fruitive labor, which are made of very strong cords, and they continue again and again in materialistic life, suffering the threefold miseries.]

They are blind, and they are leading other blind men, so people are kept in darkness, and the opportunity of this human life is lost. By nature's way, by evolutionary process, we get this human form of life. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante [Bg 7.19].

[After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.]

Manuṣya, arthadam. Prahlāda Mahārāja says, durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma [SB 7.6.1]. Such life, important life, they are wasting like cats and dogs. So this is education; this is advancement. People are not given the opportunity to utilize this valuable life for understanding higher things. This is the plight of this civilization. They are growing like cats and dogs and dying like cats and dogs. And yathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg 2.13],

[As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change.]

and according to his work, he has to accept another body. That is nature's law. So in this life I am very big man, but by work, karmaṅā daiva netreṅa [SB 3.31.1],

[The Personality of Godhead said: Under the supervision of the Supreme Lord and according to the result of his work, the living entity, the soul, is made to enter into the womb of a woman through the particle of male semen to assume a particular type of body.]

by superior administration, I have to accept a body of dog. Then what is the value of your being great now? That technology is unknown, although it is stated there in the Bhagavad-gītā. Everything is. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg 2.13]. So Kṛṣṅa never says that "You'll get such and such body." Dehāntara: "You'll have to change the body." Now, suppose... There are 8,400,000 different types of bodies. Suppose next time I become a tree. Then just see horrible position. Here is a tree. I am within this room, sitting so comfortably, and the tree is standing there. I can get that life also, karmaṅā, by my work. So this technology is unknown. And you are very much proud of advancement of knowledge. Boliye. Hmm? Am I right or wrong?

Mr. Bajaj: I don't know. I've never given very serious thought or consideration, and...

Prabhupāda: Well, these are not the subject matter for serious thought? Do you think? You are under the grip of the laws of material nature. Do you admit or not?

Mr. Bajaj: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Then why you should be under the grip of material nature? And if there is way, why should you not take? Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etaṁ taranti te [Bg 7.14].

[This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it.]

Mr. Bajaj: [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: Analysis... [Hindi with guest] Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg 2.13].

So why you are trying to get better position? That should be the endeavor, that we may get better position.

Mr. Bajaj: Sat-saṅga.

Prabhupāda: Sat-saṅga, satāṁ prasaṅgāt. The sat-saṅga... But we know that word only, but if we don't take advantage, then what is meaning?

Indian man (4): Execution part is more important of the sat-saṅga.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, sat-saṅga means sat. Sat means which is true and not contaminated. That is sat. Oṁ tat sat. So sat-saṅga means to associate with spiritual knowledge. That is sat.

Mr. Bajaj: And execution of the discourse.

Prabhupāda: Well, saṅga means execution. When you associate with medical association or sharebrokers' association, simply go there and sit down is not your business. You have to do something. You have to do something. Sat-saṅga means that. Taj-joṣaṅād āśv apavarga-vartmani [SB 3.25.25].

[In the association of pure devotees, discussion of the pastimes and activities of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is very pleasing and satisfying to the ear and the heart. By cultivating such knowledge one gradually becomes advanced on the path of liberation, and thereafter he is freed, and his attraction becomes fixed. Then real devotion and devotional service begin.]

Sat-saṅga means you have to take the knowledge and use it for practical purpose. That is sat-saṅga. So our this Kṛṣṅa consciousness movement is trying to give the sat-saṅga, opening centers all over the world. If people take advantage of it they'll be benefited. But if he is ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā, then it is very unfortunate. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ [SB 1.1.10].

[O learned one, in this iron Age of Kali men almost always have but short lives. They are quarrelsome, lazy, misguided, unlucky and, above all, always disturbed.]

This is Kali-yuga. The leaders also do not associate with sat, and they create their own imagination. Sat, oṁ tat sat. Bhagavān is the supreme sat. So they do not care for Bhagavān, so there is no sat-saṅga. Asat-saṅga.

sat-saṅga chāḍi kāinu asate vilāsa te karaṅe lāgi more karma bandha phāṅsa

[I gave up the association of devotees to enjoy sense gratification in the association of common, nonsense men, and immediately Māyā caught me and entangled me in the web of fruitive activities.]

"I have given up sat-saṅga, and I am trying to enjoy asat." Asato mā sad gamaya. That is Vedic injunction. "But I do not care for sat-saṅga." Sat-saṅga chāḍi. You have to take up something after giving up something. So our present position is sat-saṅga chāḍi kāinu asate vilāsa: "I have given up sat-saṅga, and I am trying to enjoy in asat. The result is I am entangled in karma bandha phāṅsa." According to karma, I am changing my body, and today I am human being and tomorrow I am a dog. And again from dog to another body, another body. This is going on.

Mr. Bajaj: Asato mā sama grad? You said, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Sad gamaya.

Mr. Bajaj: So the translation of it?

Prabhupāda: Sad means "Try to come to the transcendental platform, sat, and don't remain in this asat." Asat means which is temporary.

Mr. Bajaj: And tamasi mā jyotir gamaya.

Prabhupāda: Ah! Tamasa... "Don't remain in the darkness; come to the light." So this is the Vedic injunction. But we don't take advantage of the instruction. We think that "If I can make one table from ordinary wooden plank, that is advancement." This is technology. This nice polished table, it is a transformation of the crude wooden plank. So if a crude wooden plank is transferred into nice table, we see: "Oh, this is advancement." What is actual benefit? I can do without this table. But we have taken: "This is advancement. Transforming the form of an element into another, that is advancement." So asate vilāsa. This is asat, this wood, either in crude form or in transformed form. So I am taking credit because a crude wood has been turned into a table. So that is my vilāsa. So sat saṅga chāḍi kāinu asate vilāsa. So I am now bound up. So I can become a very nice carpenter. Does it mean that I am self-realized? If you have learned the art of turning crude wood into a table, nice table, you may get the credit of becoming a nice carpenter; but that does not mean you are self-realized. They are taking credit of this turning crude wood into nice table, and they're thinking that "Our life is successful." This is going on. And the real technology, that "I am not this body; I have been put into this condition, and I am transmigrating from one body to another"—there is no such knowledge. For the temporary....

[break] ...temporary thing, flickering thing, like children. Children is very busy on the beach, making sand palaces. And he's very happy. So our position is like that. But we should be intelligent enough that "There is our real life, permanent life, not this temporary life"; that "This life is temporary. There is another life." Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg 2.20]. "This śarīra is not..." Avināśi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idaṁ tatam [Bg 2.17].

[Know that which pervades the entire body is indestructible. No one is able to destroy the imperishable soul.]

So many things... The Bhagavad-gītā is full of information, but we don't take advantage. We are so unfortunate. And it is our country. This is Indian culture. We have given up this thing. [Hindi] Gandhijī, he was supposed to be a great student of Bhagavad-gītā. And the such a big āśrama, Sevagram. Where is Bhagavad-gītā arcana? Boliye.

Indian man (5): Bhagavad-gītā is a way of life...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (5): And that is what has to be followed by those who believe in it.

Prabhupāda: Believe or not believe, that is another thing. But if you want to live worthy, then you have to study Bhagavad-gītā. You believe... Just like somebody believes or not believes in dehāntara, but nature's course will go on. Young man thinks, "I'll remain young. I shall not become old man." He may believe like that, but he has to become old man. That is nature's law. So there is no question of "believe" or "not believe." If you believe, then you are benefited; if you don't believe, you go to hell. It is not the question of belief. I was speaking in South Africa in a university. So one gentleman, Arya-samāji, said... When I was explaining tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ, so he objected, that "Why you bring Hindu belief?" And, nonsense, it is Hindu belief? It is said that kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā: one boy is becoming young man. Is this for Hindu? It is not for the Muslim? And he said "Hindu belief." Such a fool he is. He said, "It is Hindu belief." Kṛṣṅa is giving this example, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanam [Bg 2.13].

Kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā. So does it mean that Hindus only from kaumāra become yuvaka, and from yuvaka to old man, and the Muslims, they do not? It is science! You believe or not believe. If you don't take the fact, then your life is missing. What is the question? Two plus two equal to four—it is not Hindu calculation, Muslim calculation or Christian calculation. You cannot say that "No, according to our Muslim calculation, two plus two equal to five." Two plus two is always four, either for a Hindu or Muslim or Christian. So whatever is spoken in the Bhagavad-gītā, that is for understanding of the human society. Why do you take "It is Hindu belief. It is Indian belief"? It is science. That is our misfortune, that a science we are accepting as a kind of belief, faith. And that we are neglecting. That is our misfortune.

Indian man (4): We are the victims of the British Empire who ruled us.

Prabhupāda: Huh? No. You are victims of yourself. Why...? British is not here now.

Indian man (4): We are indoctrined.

Prabhupāda: British is not here now.

Indian man (4): No, they have indoctrined such a philosophy.

Mr. Bajaj: But what was there before British came? This is human weakness of our own.

Prabhupāda: It is... You... You have been taught that Kṛṣṅa is an ordinary person, maybe little more in knowledge. That you are taking like that. Kūpa-maṅḍūka-nyāya [Nyāya-śāstra]. Kūpa-maṅḍa, the toad in the well, he is informed, "Oh, I have seen one Atlantic Ocean." So he is thinking, "Atlantic Ocean may be... This well is three feet. It may be four feet. Or five. Come on—ten." These rascals are thinking like that—avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā [Bg 9.11]

[Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature and My supreme dominion over all that be.]

—that "Kṛṣṅa may be more intelligent by one feet or two feet. Let us compromise—ten feet." This is going on. And Kṛṣṅa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg 7.7]:

[O conqueror of wealth [Arjuna], there is no Truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread.]

"I am the Supreme." They won't believe. They'll manufacture their ideas. This is going on. Aham ādir hi devānām [Bg 10.2]. They won't believe that. And still they'll declare, "I am student of Bhagavad-gītā." They won't believe a word of Kṛṣṅa, and they'll say, "I am student of Bhagavad-gītā." This is going on. This is our position. In India everyone says, "I have read Bhagavad-gītā three hundred times," but he does not know even a word. So this should be stopped. If we want to advance actually, you take every word of Bhagavad-gītā and try to apply in life. Then everyone will be happy. That is a fact. The instruction is there. There is no difficulty to understand. There is no question of interpretation. Simply take it as it is and try to apply it in life—you'll be happy. And your human life will be successful. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg 4.9]. Up to this human form of life, we have passed through so many evolutionary process, but if you understand Kṛṣṅa, then, after leaving this body, no more material body.

janma karma ca divyaṁ me yo jānāti tattvataḥ tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti... [Bg 4.9]

[One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna.]

And that is success. If you simply study Kṛṣṅa, then your life is successful.

Indian man: [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: Yes, sahaja. This is sahaja. You are part and parcel of Kṛṣṅa. Sahaja, sahaja means you are born along with Kṛṣṅa. Kṛṣṅa is neither born, neither you are born. Sahaja, this word, means saha-ja, "along with born." So you are part and parcel. Just like this finger is part and parcel of my body. When I was born, the finger was also born. This is saha-ja. The finger was not separately born. When I was born, the finger was born. So similarly, so long God is there, I am also there. So God is eternal; I am also eternal. You understand this? Then why you are changing body? And that is knowledge.

Indian man (5): No, why do we at all enter into this circle?

Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. You want to be a separate Kṛṣṅa. That is your ambition.

Indian man (5): Initial thing is that.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is initial. A servant, big man's servant, if he... That is natural, that "If I would have become the master." So a servant, if he wants to become the master, that is artificial. A servant remains a servant—he is happy. And as soon as he tries artificially to become the master, that is the beginning of distress. So we are eternal servant of God. As soon as we try to become God, that is the beginning of our suffering.

Indian man (2): [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: Mokṣa... [Hindi] The starting is there. Icchā-dveṣa-samutthena sarge yānti parantapa [Bg 7.27]. [Hindi] Kṛṣṅa bhūliyā jīva bhoga vāñchā kare, pāśate māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare [Prema-vivarta].

As soon as you desire like this, that "I shall become God," so immediately there is māyā. That is māyā. So when you are entangled in māyā, then there is question of mukti. The mukti means muktir hitvā 'nyathā rūpaṁ svarūpena vyavasthitiḥ [SB 2.10.6].

[The merging of the living entity, along with his conditional living tendency, with the mystic lying down of the Mahā-Viṣṅu is called the winding up of the cosmic manifestation. Liberation is the permanent situation of the form of the living entity after he gives up the changeable gross and subtle material bodies.]

This is mukti. Mukti means when you are acting differently. That is my condition. That is my bondage. And when I act according to my original position, that is mukti. So everyone is acting here to become master. So there is no question of mukti. As soon as you understand that "My real position is I am servant of God, so let me act as serv...," then it is mukti. Hitva anyathā rūpam. At the present moment we are trying to act as master. So you give it down..., up. Act as servant. Then you are mukta. Therefore a bhakta is mukta. Sa guṅān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate. Māṁ ca yo 'vyabhicareṅa-bhakti-yogena ya sevate [Bg 14.26].

[One who engages in full devotional service, who does not fall down in any circumstance, at once transcends the modes of material nature and thus comes to the level of Brahman.]

Anyone who is engaged as bhakta, he is mukta. All are conditioned. So if you become bhakta, if you surrender to Kṛṣṅa—immediately mukti, instantly. Kṛṣṅa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṅaṁ, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo [Bg 18.66].

[Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear.]

You are conditioned; you are bound up on account of your sinful activities. So Kṛṣṅa says, "I'll give you relief from all the reaction of sinful activity. You surrender." So mukti means one second. You surrender to Kṛṣṅa; it takes one second. But that is very difficult. That requires many, many births. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg 7.19]:

[After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.]

after many, many births of suffering, when he comes to the knowledge that "I am servant of Kṛṣṅa. Why I am trying to become master?" that is jñānavān. And then he surrenders to.... Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā [Bg 7.19]. That is mahātmā. It takes one second.

Mr. Bajaj: Prabhupāda, surrender, sar..., word, if you can give us a full explanation of the word surrender. What's the meaning of surrender, and how one should do it? Basis of surrender.

Prabhupāda: Surrender, this is surrender, that... First of all, why you surrender? You must know it perfectly well that "Kṛṣṅa is master; I am servant." Otherwise there is no question of surrender. Then you have to believe that "Kṛṣṅa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi [Bg 18.66]. So now I have surrendered; I have no more fear. Kṛṣṅa will give me protection." To believe firmly, "Kṛṣṅa is all powerful. Kṛṣṅa is my master. He is not a fakir, that He's talking nonsense." We have to believe that. This is surrender. If you think, "Kṛṣṅa is another fakir like me. He's talking nonsense," then there is not surrender. You have to believe that. That is explained in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta, that śraddhā śabde viśvāsa niścaya [Cc Madhya 22.62].

[Śraddhā is confident, firm faith that by rendering transcendental loving service to Kṛṣṅa one automatically performs all subsidiary activities. Such faith is favorable to the discharge of devotional service.]

This is śraddhā. Śraddhā is the beginning. That śraddhā means when you firmly believe in Kṛṣṅa: "Yes, He'll give me protection." That is surrender. Kṛṣṅe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya. When you come to this stage, firmly believe in the words of Kṛṣṅa, that is surrender. First of all, you have to check yourself whether you firmly believe in the words of God. If you don't believe, there is no question of surrender. Then you will remain where you are. This is firm belief: "Kṛṣṅa says that He will give me protection, so let me surrender. I have surrendered to māyā—I have not become happy—so why not surrender to Kṛṣṅa?" This is intelligence. You are not free. Then why you are declaring yourself as free? This is your disease. So intelligent means that I have no freedom actually. I am acting under the dictation of my senses. I am servant of my senses. So why not become servant of Kṛṣṅa? This is intelligent. Everyone is acting under senses, order of the senses. Kāmādinām kathidhā na kathidā palitā durni-deśaḥ [Cc Madhya 22.16].

[O my Lord, there is no limit to the unwanted orders of lusty desires. Although I have rendered these desires so much service, they have not shown any mercy to me. I have not been ashamed to serve them, nor have I even desired to give them up. O my Lord, O head of the Yadu dynasty, recently, however, my intelligence has been awakened, and now I am giving them up. Due to transcendental intelligence, I now refuse to obey the unwanted orders of these desires, and I now come to You to surrender myself at Your fearless lotus feet. Kindly engage me in Your personal service and save me.]

Even I don't want to do it, something wrong, but my senses are dictating, so "All right, let me do it." So we are... I am servant of the senses. My position is twofold: either I become the servant of the senses or I become servant of Kṛṣṅa. My position is the same. Simply I have to change it.

Indian man (2): How to run away from the senses, master of the senses? I, being a servant of the senses, [indistinct] master of the senses. How to run away from the senses?

Prabhupāda: Yes. You are servant. That is gosvāmī. That is svāmī, gosvāmī. Svāmī means when he's no longer servant of the senses, a master of the senses. That is svāmī.

Indian man (2): How to come to that position?

Prabhupāda: That requires education, training. You have become a lawyer not in one day. You have been trained up. Then you are lawyer. Similarly, everyone has to be trained up how to become perfect servant, but he must agree in the beginning that "Now I shall become servant of Kṛṣṅa." Then everything is there. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā tato 'nartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt tato niṣṭhā tato ruciḥ tataḥ athāsaktiḥ tato bhavaḥ [Cc Madhya 23.14-15].

[In the beginning there must be faith. Then one becomes interested in associating with pure devotees. Thereafter one is initiated by the spiritual master and executes the regulative principles under his orders. Thus one is freed from all unwanted habits and becomes firmly fixed in devotional service. Thereafter, one develops taste and attachment. This is the way of sādhana-bhakti, the execution of devotional service according to the regulative principles. Gradually emotions intensify, and finally there is an awakening of love. This is the gradual development of love of Godhead for the devotee interested in Kṛṣṅa consciousness.]

These are the different stages. Ādau śraddhā: "Yes. Now Kṛṣṅa says, 'You surrender.' I'll surrender. I believe in this, firmly believe." Śraddhā-śabde viśvāsa sudṛḍha niścaya [Cc Madhya 22.62].

This śraddhā means when you firmly believe that "Kṛṣṅa will give me all protection if I surrender." And that is the beginning of śraddhā.

Indian man (2): Faith. Firm faith.

Prabhupāda: Faith. Yes. Faith means firm faith. Faith does not mean... Anyway, ādau śraddhā. This śraddhā, if we increase this śraddhā, you have to associate with sādhu. And who is sādhu? Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk sādhur eva samantavyaḥ [Bg 9.30].

[Even if one commits the most abominable actions, if he is engaged in devotional service, he is to be considered saintly because he is properly situated.]

He is sādhu, who is simply engaged in Kṛṣṅa's service. He is sādhu. Api cet sudurācāraḥ: "Even though you find there is some discrepancies in his character, because he is fully engaged in My service, he is sādhu." Sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ samyag vyavasito hi saḥ [Bg 9.30]. If he has got other engagement, he is not sādhu. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11]:

[One should render transcendental loving service to the Supreme Lord Kṛṣṅa favorably and without desire for material profit or gain through fruitive activities or philosophical speculation. That is called pure devotional service.]

"Other engagement, zero." That is sādhu. The sādhu-saṅga [Cc Madhya 22.83].

[The root cause of devotional service to Lord Kṛṣṅa is association with advanced devotees. Even when one’s dormant love for Kṛṣṅa awakens, association with devotees is still most essential.]

You have to associate with such sādhus who are cent per cent engaged in Kṛṣṅa's service. Ādau śraddhā tato sādhu-saṅgaḥ tato bhajana-kriyā. If you mix with the sādhu, then you'll learn the activities. Sādhu-mārgānugamanam. The sādhus are rising early in the morning; they are attending maṅgala ārati, they are reading Bhagavad-gītā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, then dressing the Deity and having ārati and so on, so on, so on. This is called bhajana-kriyā. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana [Cc Madhya 23.14]. Then anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt: then all these material activities will stop. Because if you are engaged in spiritual act..., where is your time for material activities, for drinking wine and eating meat and going to the restaurant and...? No time. These boys, although they are trained up from childhood how to eat meat, how to drink, but now they have no time. They never ask me, "Swāmījī, give me one rupee. I shall go to the cinema." Never. They have no time. Anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt, all anarthas finished. These are the stages. Then his life becomes of devotion. Athāsaktiḥ niṣṭhā: "Yes, I shall stick to Kṛṣṅa consciousness." Tato niṣṭhā tato ruciḥ. Ruciḥ means taste. Unless they have got taste, why they should remain with me? They are not coming from poor family. His father is a big lawyer. You know? Yes. So why he is living with me? He has got taste, ruciḥ. Tato niṣṭhā tato ruciḥ, athāsaktiḥ. Asaktiḥ, attachment. Whenever I am there, they are coming. Asaktiḥ. Tato bhāvaḥ. "Oh, I am servant of Kṛṣṅa. I have to do this." These are the different stages. Sādhakānām ayaṁ premṅaḥ prādurbhāve bhavet kramaḥ [Cc Madhya 23.15]. These are the different stages, kramaḥ. Kramaḥ means gradual evolution.

So you have to take that gradual evolution. But it will be done if you remain with the associate. Saṅgāt sañjāyate kāmaḥ [Bg 2.62].

[While contemplating the objects of the senses, a person develops attachment for them, and from such attachment lust develops, and from lust anger arises.]

They are giving this opportunity. Come here in our association and learn the art. I have seen in Bombay. The other day I went to a gentleman's apartment. He is.... The gentleman is earning two thousand, and the wife is earning seven hundred. But they are living in an apartment of this size. Within this, there is bedroom, and there is kitchen, and there is toilet, and everything is there. And if we say people, "Please come here. Take a room like this and chant Hare Kṛṣṅa," they'll not come. They'll prefer to remain in that teeny apartment. Am I right or not?

Indian man (2): Yes, sir.

Prabhupāda: Manda-bhāgyā. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ [SB 1.1.10].

[O learned one, in this iron Age of Kali men almost always have but short lives. They are quarrelsome, lazy, misguided, unlucky and, above all, always disturbed.]

Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has declared, ei rūpe brahmāṅḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva. They are rotting or rotating within this universe in different species of life. But if by chance he becomes fortunate, then take to Kṛṣṅa consciousness.

ei rūpe brahmāṅḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva guru-kṛṣṅa kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja [Cc Madhya 19.151]

[According to their karma, all living entities are wandering throughout the entire universe. Some of them are being elevated to the upper planetary systems, and some are going down into the lower planetary systems. Out of many millions of wandering living entities, one who is very fortunate gets an opportunity to associate with a bona fide spiritual master by the grace of Kṛṣṅa. By the mercy of both Kṛṣṅa and the spiritual master, such a person receives the seed of the creeper of devotional service.]

Indian man (2): The meaning is [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: All living entities are rotting in this way, but if some of them or one of them becomes very fortunate, then by the grace of guru and Kṛṣṅa he gets this line of devotional service. It is for the most fortunate person, not ordinary.

Indian man (3): What's the difference between grace and mercy?

Prabhupāda: Grace means he'll willingly give you mercy; and mercy means you ask for mercy. Kṛpa-siddha. Sādhana-siddha and kṛpa-siddha. You are trying to earn one lakh of rupees—that is sādhana. But if somebody is gracious, he can give you: "Take one lakh of rupees. Don't work hard." That is grace. That is kṛpa. You are ambitious for one lakh of rupees or somebody graciously gives you, "All right, take"—there are many persons—so that is grace. Otherwise, you earn by your hard labor. That is sādhana. Similarly, by association, by sādhana-bhakti, you attain perfection, and by grace also you can attain perfection. Two ways. So those who are kṛpa-siddha, they are more fortunate. [Hindi] Preach this Bhagavad-gītā as it is. People will be benefited. You will be benefited. Don't make unnecessary interpretation, misguide others and spoil your own life. That is very unfortunate. What is the difficulty to accept Bhagavad-gītā? There is no difficulty. Unfortunately we interpret in different way and take it other way. So our little attempt is to spread Bhagavad-gītā as it is, and whatever it may be, it is being accepted in the Western countries. Not by all, but the people in general. Now the... Feeling the weight, they have now began opposing.

Mr. Bajaj: Have seen the new light.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They're opposing me very vigorously in America.

Mr. Bajaj: And that is a good sign.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our victory. When there is opposition, and that is our victory. In spite of opposition, we are selling our books in large quantity. Yes. Large quantity. What is the one week sale that? Eighteen lakhs or something like...

Girirāja: In one week, the books, total of books, was seven lakhs books in one week.

Mr. Bajaj: In one week? That would be hundred thousand dollars.

Prabhupāda: No, no. More than. Eh? Seven lakhs?

Indian man (3): But mostly they are in America. Also in that number in Japan?

Prabhupāda: No, America. And opposition is also in America. No, Europe and America, they are taking.

Indian man (4): Opposition is, Prabhupāda, natural. Because you are converting their churches into temples.

Prabhupāda: No, there are many of. First thing is that my students are advised, "No illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication up to the point of smoking cigarette and drinking tea, and no gambling." But this is their life. How they can give up this? And that is... It is a shock. Therefore they say "brainwash," that "How a gentleman can give up all these things?" Many... Not many. A few of my students, they left. They said that "Swāmījī is denying the primary necessities of life." They left. They could not tolerate. So I do not make any compromise: that if you want to become my student you have to give up these things. So the responsible parents, they are appreciating that "My son is now purified." But some of them, there are...

Indian man (2): They feel that you are kidnapping their children. [laughs]

Prabhupāda: And therefore they are kidnapping. And his father, mother came in Calcutta. His mother asked, "Swāmījī, please return my son." And "Take your son."

Indian man (2): Please...?

Prabhupāda: "Return my son." [laughter] And "Take your son." And then he was asked, and he was silent. So mother began to cry. So I promised that "I shall send your son. He'll go. Don't bother." His father, mother came. And many father, mother come to give me thanks: "Swāmījī, it is great fortune of our country that you have come."

Indian man (3): Similar instance about a man, svāmī also, Parsee boy, who is now in Hyderabad.

Girirāja: Mahāṁsa.

Indian man (3): His mother was very...

Prabhupāda: Her mother said... In the beginning she opposed. Yes, she is happy now.

Indian man (3): She wants to meet you, Prabhupāda. Can I bring her tomorrow?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Indian man (2): You are going to Kumbha-melā tomorrow?

Prabhupāda: Day after.

Indian man (2): Day after.

Prabhupāda: So our movement is genuine. Now it is up to you to help this movement. And there is no concoction. From... Sa evāyaṁ mayā te 'dya yogaḥ proktaḥ purātanaḥ [Bg 4.3].

[That very ancient science of the relationship with the Supreme is today told by Me to you because you are My devotee as well as My friend; therefore you can understand the transcendental mystery of this science.]

As Kṛṣṅa said five thousand years ago, yogaḥ proktaḥ purātanaḥ. So we are also presenting that purātanaḥ. This philosophy is not new. Purātanaḥ. So we have nothing to tax our brain to manufacture something new. So people give me credit: "Swāmījī, you have done wonderful, wonderful." I do not know magic. But I am presenting purātanaḥ, that's all; no adulteration. If there is any credit, the credit is this—yogaḥ proktaḥ purātanaḥ.

Indian man (4): Purātanaḥ and śāśvata.

Prabhupāda: Purātanaḥ means śāśvata. Yes. Nityaḥ śāśvato purātanaḥ. So the sun is purātanaḥ. The sun is purātanaḥ, but the shining is the same. And similarly, if we present the purātanaḥ yoga, then it is effective. Then it is effective.

Indian man (3): Swāmījī, I wanted to know the importance of Kumbha-melā.

Prabhupāda: This is the assembly of great saintly persons. That's all.

Indian man (3): No, if we people go there at Kumbha-melā time, is it good?

Prabhupāda: Is it not good if so many saintly persons will come? The atmosphere is so nice.

Indian man (3): So many people accumulate.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only... Not people, but saintly persons.

Indian man (3): Saintly persons, of course.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They have actually executed bhajana, sādhana. Brahmeti paramātmeti [SB 1.2.11].

[Learned transcendentalists who know the Absolute Truth call this nondual substance Brahman, Paramātmā or Bhagavān.]

Maybe somebody is brahmavādī, somebody paramātmavādī, somebody bhaktas, but they're transcendental. They're not materialistic persons. So you get their association, sādhu-saṅga [Cc Madhya 22.83]

Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgaḥ. So sādhu-saṅga is essential. And that is our civilization. Sādhu-saṅga.

Indian man (5): So many people come with one wish, and the whole atmosphere is charged there.

Prabhupāda: Yes, spiritual... Sādhu-saṅga [Hindi].

Indian man (2): Sādhu-saṅga, of course, is very important. Getting to take a dip in Ganges at that..., during this period, has that got any particular significance apart from sādhu-saṅga?

Prabhupāda: Yes. There is. At least your faith is increased. With faith you take a dip. Faith cure. And Ganges herself is purifying.

Indian man (2): No. Is there special significance during this period? That is all the time.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is... The significance is sādhu-saṅga purification. Our Vedic principle is: whatever is enjoined in the Vedas, we should accept it without any argument. That is Vedic injunction. This example we give generally: just like śaṅkha. Śaṅkha is the bone of an animal. So according to Vedic system, if you touch the bone of an animal, dead body animal, then you have to take bath immediately. But the śaṅkha is pure. Now, you cannot argue that "It is the bone of an animal. You say one place that 'Bone of animal is impure. You have to take bath; you have touched it,' and this śaṅkha is in their Deity worship? It is contradictory." But because it is stated in the Vedas, you have to accept. This is Vedic injunction. You cannot argue. There is no question of arguing. Just like cow dung is the stool of an animal. Even if we touch my own stool, I take bath. But cow dung, it is said, it is pure. If there is anywhere impure, you smear the cow dung, it will be pure. Now, you can argue that "It is stool of an animal. How it becomes pure?" This argument will not... So Vedic knowledge means don't argue. You have to accept it. Acintyaḥ khalu ye bhava na tas tarkena yojayet. Things... There are many things which is beyond your perception, so you have to accept the Vedic injunction. Then you are right. So if the Vedic injunction is: "In such and such moment you take a bath in the Ganges; you become purified," you take it. There is no question of argument. That is faith. But faith must be there. Vedo-praṅihito dharmaḥ. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṅītam [SB 6.3.19].

[Real religious principles are enacted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Although fully situated in the mode of goodness, even the great ṛṣis who occupy the topmost planets cannot ascertain the real religious principles, nor can the demigods or the leaders of Siddhaloka, to say nothing of the asuras, ordinary human beings, Vidyādharas and Cāraṅas.]

Everything is there.

[to devotees] Can you find out this verse from the Sixth Canto?

Jagadīśa: I know the verse.

Prabhupāda: Sixth Canto, First Part. Veda-praṅihito dhar... Yamarāja's instruction. Er, the Yamadūtas explain what is dharma, veda-praṅihito dharmaḥ. Where you found the page?

Pradyumna:

yamadūtā ūcuḥ veda-praṅihito dharmo hy adharmas tad-viparyayaḥ vedo nārāyaṅaḥ sākṣāt svayambhūr iti śuśruma [SB 6.1.40]

Prabhupāda: What is the translation?

Pradyumna: "The Yamadūtas replied: That which is prescribed in the Vedas constitutes dharma, the religious principles, and the opposite of that is irreligion."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Pradyumna: "The Vedas are directly the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Nārāyaṅa, and are self-born. This we have heard from Yamarāja."

Prabhupāda: "This we have heard." This is authority. If you have heard from the authority, that is knowledge. If you have manufactured, that is nonsense. Iti śuśruma. You'll find Arjuna also speaking with Kṛṣṅa—iti śuśruma. And Śukadeva Gosvāmī, he is such a learned scholar. He also—iti śuś..., that this is our knowledge: to hear and receive the knowledge from higher authority. In the ordinary way also, the students go to the college, they hear from the professor. That is knowledge. He does not go to a pān-walla to hear. One who is authorized, professor, we hear from him. Similarly, we have to get knowledge from the authority. So supreme authority is Kṛṣṅa. So hear from Him. Then it is knowledge. Otherwise, tad ajñānam yad anyathā. What is that? Tad anya...?

Pradyumna: Etaj jñānam iti proktam [Bg 13.12].

[Humility, pridelessness, nonviolence, tolerance, simplicity, approaching a bona fide spiritual master, cleanliness, steadiness and self-control; renunciation of the objects of sense gratification, absence of false ego, the perception of the evil of birth, death, old age and disease; nonattachment to children, wife, home and the rest, and evenmindedness amid pleasant and unpleasant events; constant and unalloyed devotion to Me, resorting to solitary places, detachment from the general mass of people; accepting the importance of self-realization, and philosophical search for the Absolute Truth—all these I thus declare to be knowledge, and what is contrary to these is ignorance.]

Prabhupāda: Iti proktam and yad anyathā ajñānam: "Besides this," anyathā, "that is all ajñānam." So we can take perfect knowledge from Kṛṣṅa. There is no difficulty. But we deny: "Why shall I take?" That is our disease. The same thing: "I am also Kṛṣṅa. I can also speak like Kṛṣṅa." This is...

Indian man: Aham.

Prabhupāda: Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā [Bg 3.27]. Not only aham. Aham is good. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi, that is good. But ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā, when he becomes rascal by false ahaṅkāra, then it is dangerous. It is dangerous. And that is going on. These dangerous leaders, by ahaṅkāra, spoiling the whole atmosphere. That is dangerous. Our preaching is... We say that "Here is Kṛṣṅa speaking. He says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg 18.65].

[Always think of Me and become My devotee. Worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend.]

So you simply think of Kṛṣṅa, and you chant His name and go to the temple, offer your obeisances. And if you can, offer something for His pūjā." Bās. Our mission is completed. Where is the difficulty? There is no difficulty. The words are there.

[break] [Hindi with guest] Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate [Bg 3.27].

Girirāja: About fifteen more minutes.

Prabhupāda: Hmm? So I can go and take my massage now. [Hindi with guests]

Girirāja: Actually, we could show the book movie. I don't think anyone here has seen it.

Prabhupāda: Ah. Yes.

Girirāja: [to guests:] I don't think... You didn't see that. Okay I'll just get that. It's a very short movie, fifteen minutes. Very inspiring.

Prabhupāda: [Hindi with guests] The real purport of Bhagavad-gītā is to surrender to Kṛṣṅa. Then it is successful. [Hindi with guests] If you take Bhagavad-gītā, the speaker of Bhagavad-gītā says this is the purpose: man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam [Bg 18.66].

[Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear.]

Duṣkṛtino narādhamāḥ. That... Na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhā duṣkṛtino narādhamāḥ [Bg 7.15].

[Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, lowest among mankind, whose knowledge is stolen by illusion, and who partake of the atheistic nature of demons, do not surrender unto Me.]

"One who does not do that, he is sinful, duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ, and fool, rascal, narādhamāḥ, lowest of the mankind." He is chastising like that. So if you have got other purpose, that means you come to this group: duṣkṛtino mūḍhā narādhamāḥ.

Indian man (2): So about [Hindi] Ramakrishna Mission.

Prabhupāda: [Hindi with guest] But why do you take Bhagavad-gītā? You are free to do whatever you like. That freedom is given. Kṛṣṅa has given. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante [Bg 4.11].

[All of them—as they surrender unto Me—I reward accordingly. Everyone follows My path in all respects, O son of Pṛthā.]

That you have got. But when you speak of Bhagavad-gītā, then you speak what Kṛṣṅa wants.

Mr. Bajaj: You should take Bhagavad-gītā as it is. You explain it but not interpret it.

Prabhupāda: There is no need of interpretation.

Indian man (2): You can explain it in the language which people can understand.

Prabhupāda: Explanation also not very much required, because the explanation is already there, and we are not so intelligent that we can explain. But we take it, the words of the Bhagavad-gītā, that Kṛṣṅa says, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg 7.15].

[Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, lowest among mankind, whose knowledge is stolen by illusion, and who partake of the atheistic nature of demons, do not surrender unto Me.]

If we see that one is not surrendered to Kṛṣṅa, he comes to this group: duṣkṛtina, narādhamāḥ and mūḍha. That's all. This is our conclusion. We are fools and rascal. We take the words of Kṛṣṅa. He cannot surrender to Kṛṣṅa on account of duṣkṛtina. Kṛti means he's doing something meritorious—but for bad purpose, duṣkṛtina. He is taxing his brain to do something, but against the will of Bhagavad-gītā. That is called duṣkṛtina. The purpose of Bhagavad-gītā is to surrender to Kṛṣṅa, or God. But if you are deviating them to become atheists, narādhamāḥ, then what is Bhagavad-gītā preaching? You preach Bhagavad-gītā as it is. So they take the Bhagavad-gītā for serving their purpose. Somebody was telling me that Dr. Radhakrishnan said that "If you take Bhagavad-gītā as..., Kṛṣṅa as God...," something like that, that they deny that Kṛṣṅa is God. This is Bhagavad-gītā preaching. God is speaking Himself—bhagavān uvāca. Vyāsadeva [Hindi]. Vyāsadeva... Who can be better scholar than Vyāsadeva? Vidvān. He is recognized vidvān. Veda-vyāsa. All ācāryas accept. Vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitā [SB 1.7.6]. So Vyāsadeva.... [Hindi] bhagavān uvāca. [Hindi] So cent per cent, they are speaking something which is not the purpose of Bhagavad-gītā. [Hindi] You can speak whatever you like. You have got that liberty.

Mr. Bajaj: Is it, Prabhupāda, just to satisfy their own ego that they are doing in this way?

Prabhupāda: Some reason anyābhilāṣitā. He has got other purpose, not the purpose of preaching Bhagavad-gītā. That is called anyābhilāṣa. So people are infested with anyābhilāṣa, everyone. Therefore he is living this material life. But that should be zero. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11].

That you have to... That is sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg 18.66]. If you have got other purposes within yourself, then you'll never understand Bhagavad-gītā. This is bhakti.

anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam ānukūlyena kṛṣṅanu- śīlanaṁ bhaktir uttama [Cc Madhya 19.167]

[When first-class devotional service develops, one must be devoid of all material desires, knowledge obtained by monistic philosophy, and fruitive action. The devotee must constantly serve Kṛṣṅa favorably, as Kṛṣṅa desires.]

And Kṛṣṅa says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg 18.55].

[One can understand the Supreme Personality as He is only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of the Supreme Lord by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God.]

You cannot understand Kṛṣṅa without bhakti. And this is bhakti: anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ [Cc Madhya 19.167]. So they have got full of anyābhilāṣa, jñāna-karma, so they are not bhaktas; they cannot understand Kṛṣṅa. They are talking nonsense. This is the position. Because they are not bhaktas—karmī, jñāni, yogī—they have got some purpose. Karmī is flatly that "We want this enjoyment." And jñānī, he says superficially that brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā: "The jagat is mithyā, so we don't want this jagat. But I want mukti, to become one with the Supreme." So that is also anyābhilāṣa. He does not know it. He's thinking that "I'm better than these karmīs. The karmīs have got anyābhilāṣa. So I have rejected that. Brahma-satya. I have taken to Brahman." But that is also anyābhilāṣa, because he wants to become one with the Brahman. Subtle. And yogīs, they also want mystic power, to show magic. So he also anyābhilāṣitā-pūrṅa. So none of them are fit to understand Bhagavad-gītā. So Bhagavad-gītā will be understood by him who is anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ. But none of these karmīs, jñānis, yogīs, they are anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ [Cc Madhya 19.167].

They're anyābhilāṣitā-pūrṅam. They cannot understand Bhagavad-gītā. It is not possible. Therefore Kṛṣṅa said that "You are My very confidential friend. I am talking to you the most confidential part of knowledge. Give up all this nonsense. You simply surrender." Guhyad guhyata—what is that? Find out. Guhyatamam. Bhakto 'si priyo 'si me [Bg 4.3].

Hari-śauri: Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto?

Prabhupāda: No, guhyad guhyatamam. Before saying sarva dharmān parityajya [Bg 18.66], that "My dear Arjuna, you are My very confidential friend. I have spoken to you so many things." What is that?

Hari-śauri: Sarva-guhyatamaṁ bhūyaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Sarva-guhyatamam.

Hari-śauri: Śṛṅu me paramaṁ vacaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Paramaṁ vacaḥ.

Hari-śauri: Iṣṭo 'si me dṛḍham iti tato vakṣyāmi te hitam [Bg 18.64].

[Because you are My very dear friend, I am speaking to you the most confidential part of knowledge. Hear this from Me, for it is for your benefit.]

Prabhupāda: "Now I am speaking to you. Hear Me now." Then He says sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam [Bg 18.66]. Sarva-guhyatamam. "This is the confidential knowledge. And this is open to you because you are My very intimate friend. It is not to be disclosed." Others will not understand. Others will not understand. Sarva-guhyatamam.

Hari-śauri: Sarva-guhyatamam bhūyaḥ srnu me...

Prabhupāda: Paramaṁ vacaḥ. Paramam means supreme instruction. Why? Now...?

Hari-śauri: Iṣṭo 'si me dṛḍham iti.

Prabhupāda: Iṣṭo 'si: "I know you are My very sincere devotee and friend." Then?

Hari-śauri: Tato vakṣyāmi te hitam.

Prabhupāda: Tato vakṣyāmi te hitam. This is the confidential knowledge. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam, ānukūlyena kṛṣṅānu-śīlanam [Cc Madhya 19.167].

You simply act favorably to Kṛṣṅa. Then agreed: "Yes, I shall fight." Because he understood that "I have to satisfy Kṛṣṅa, not my whims. I was thinking of my whims, that 'They are my family members. How shall I fight? Why You are putting me this proposal?' So on, so on, so on..." That... What is that verse? Find out that kariṣye vacanaṁ tava. There. There you'll find. Agreed. "Yes." In the beginning he disagreed. Naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā tvat prasādān madhusūdana, kariṣye vacanam [Bg 18.73]. Naṣṭo mohaḥ. After so much instruction, if his moha is not dissipated, then what is the use? So he said naṣṭo mohaḥ.

[to Hari-śauri:] You could not find?

Hari-śauri: What's the first line?

Prabhupāda: Naṣṭo! Why don't you find? You. Give him. He'll find. Why don't you give to Pradyumna?

Hari-śauri: Naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā?

Prabhupāda: Ha!

Hari-śauri:

naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā tvat-prasādān mayācyuta sthito 'smi gata-sandehaḥ kariṣye vacanaṁ tava [Bg 18.73]

[Arjuna said, My dear Kṛṣṅa, O infallible one, my illusion is now gone. I have regained my memory by Your mercy, and I am now firm and free from doubt and am prepared to act according to Your instructions.]

Prabhupāda: That's it. Sthito 'smi gata-sandehaḥ. Kariṣye vacanam. This is liberation: "Now I am fixed up," sthito 'smi, "all doubts gone." This is real study of Bhagavad-gītā. And promises, kariṣye vacanam: "All right, I shall fight. I shall kill Bhiṣmadeva. Never mind he's my grandfather. No question of nonviolence. I shall commit violence." This is Kṛṣṅa consciousness. Because naṣṭo mohaḥ. "It was my mohaḥ, I was thinking in that way, that 'He's my grandfather. He's my brother. He's my nephew.' These are all nonsense. I have to satisfy You." Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava [Bg 18.73]. That is ānukūlyena kṛṣṅānu-śīlanam [Cc Madhya 19.167].

Bhakti means to act to satisfy to Kṛṣṅa. That is bhakti. Without any argument, what Kṛṣṅa says, that's all right.

Indian man (4): Unconditional.

Prabhupāda: Unconditional. That is surrender. If we read Bhagavad-gītā in that way, then sthito 'smi, then sthita prajñā. And if you make cut short... Arjuna said, sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yan māṁ vadasi keśava [Bg 10.14]:

[O Kṛṣṅa, I totally accept as truth all that You have told me. Neither the gods nor demons, O Lord, know Thy personality.]

"Keśava, whatever You have said, I accept it in total." That is surrender. No cut short.

Indian man (4): Fulfills all requirements, mental requirements.

Prabhupāda: I'll request Bajajī. You are, yourself, your wife and your sister, and our Śrīman Nārāyaṅajī, all, you are all very intelligent. You take this Bhagavad-gītā preaching seriously. That is my request. Not cut short.

Indian man (4): No, no. I'm not interested in...

Prabhupāda: [Hindi] No cut short. Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye [Bg 10.14]. What is that verse?

Hari-śauri: Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yan māṁ vadasi keśava.

Prabhupāda: Ah. "Whatever You are saying," yan māṁ vadasi keśava, "I accept them." No cut short. No mutilation. Then?

Hari-śauri: Na hi te bhagavan vyaktiṁ vidur devā na dānavāḥ.

Prabhupāda: "Your personality is not understood even by the demigods, what to speak of ordinary men." Then?

Hari-śauri: Vidur devā na dānavāḥ.

Prabhupāda: What the devā? The demigods do not, what to speak of the demons, dānavān. Then? Next verse?

Hari-śauri:

svayam evātmanātmānaṁ vettha tvaṁ puruṣottama bhūta-bhāvana bhūteśa deva-deva jagat-pate [Bg 10.15]

[Indeed, You alone know Yourself by Your own potencies, O origin of all, Lord of all beings, God of gods, O Supreme Person, Lord of the universe!]

Prabhupāda: So, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitram [Bg 10.12].

[Arjuna said: You are the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal divine person. You are the primal God, transcendental and original, and You are the unborn and all-pervading beauty. All the great sages such as Nārada, Asita, Devala, and Vyāsa proclaim this of You, and now You Yourself are declaring it to me.]

So sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye [Bg 10.14].

[O Kṛṣṅa, I totally accept as truth all that You have told me. Neither the gods nor demons, O Lord, know Thy personality.]

If we accept sarvam etad ṛtam, as it is, then we be benefited, and if we do not accept in that way, then it is naṣṭaḥ. Sa kāleneha mahatā yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa. Then it is being spoiled. And what benefit you will get with spoiled things? As soon as you interpret, it is spoiled, immediately spoiled. So what benefit will be derived from the spoiled things? And that is being done. Don't believe in Kṛṣṅa, don't believe in the words of Kṛṣṅa, and if I am preaching Bhagavad-gītā, what is the benefit? It is spoiled. So if you distribute some spoiled food, it will increase food poison. That is going on. Instead of taking benefit from a first-class food, if you distribute a spoiled, then there will be food poisoning. That is being done. In India every home knows Bhagavad-gītā. And because it is spoiled now, there will be food poisoning. They are denying the existence of God. God is speaking—Bhagavān uvāca—and they are now..., don't... They are not believing in the existence of God. "God? Where is God? Science." This is going on. If we speak of God, then we are primitive. And up-to-date? "I am God; you are God." This is up-to-date. And if we say, "Now, God is Kṛṣṅa. You worship Him. You become devotee," this is primitive. And these Americans, although they are up-to-date, they have accepted it, my word. I presented them that Kṛṣṅa is God; they have accepted. This is their qualification.

Indian man (3): Supreme Lord.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I have told them that Kṛṣṅa is the Supreme Lord, and they have accepted. This is my magic, and this is their magic. That's all. You ask them if I did any magic with them.

Indian man (3): This is magic itself. [laughter]

Prabhupāda: [laughs] Yes, it is magic. It is magic undoubtedly. But I never created any gold or some other... And neither I do know it, how to do it, although there is no scarcity of gold in my pocket. I started this business with forty rupees. [pause] So I'll go to take massage. Thank you very much. [Hindi] ...prasāda. Show. Show the film. You are going to show?

Girirāja: Haridāsa took the projector, so I don't know when it's coming.

Prabhupāda: Why he has? [break] [end]