Room Conversation with Film Producer about Kṛṣṅa Lila
Prabhupāda: Jayadeva's, that poetry, that Kṛṣṅa is begging pardon from Rādhārāṅī, that is also very confidential. Dehi pada-pallava...
Indian man: Dehi pada-pallavam udaram.
Indian man (1): We have recorded songs, thirty-four songs, written by the ancient poets and Jayadeva.
Indian man (2): Vaiṣṅavas.
Indian man (1): All Vaiṣṅavas.
Prabhupāda: People misunderstand this Kṛṣṅa's behavior with Rādhārāṅī and the gopīs as ordinary woman-hunters.
Indian man (2): No, no.
Prabhupāda: You say no, but they take it like that. Even a person like Vivekananda, he said long ago that "This Vaiṣṅavism is sex religion." They misunderstand. So just try to understand. This līlā is kept in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam in the Tenth Canto, and middle of Tenth Canto, Thirty-fourth, Thirty-fifth Chapter. So one has to understand Kṛṣṅa first of all. So it is not for ordinary men. So we discourage these things to be discussed or presented even for ordinary men. This is our preaching. It cannot be taken as ordinary film show.
Indian man (2): No, sir, he was taking it in different angle, that Kṛṣṅa as by these Vaiṣṅavas.
Prabhupāda: That's all right...
Indian man (2): That is the rāsa. We are talking of the rāsa-līlā.
Prabhupāda: Rāsa..., that is not for ordinary persons. It is most confidential. So this has deteriorated. Otherwise, so many gentlemen come here, and India, they are asking, "What is God?" This is the question. "Why God was killed?" Yesterday this was the question.
Indian man (2): We also came. We were also there. And Mr. Karana was asking nice questions. Yesterday evening he was here.
Prabhupāda: So in India... You are born in India, where God comes as Lord Rāmacandra, as Lord Kṛṣṅa, as Lord Caitanya, and you are asking, "What is God?" So how much deteriorated you have become, just imagine. So we are trying to reform all this nonsense business, and how I can associate?
Indian man (2): No, no, we don't ask your association. We want your blessing.
Prabhupāda: How can I give my blessing? It is... I protest, rather. I protest, rather. You should not present this.
Indian man (1): No, this is about the activities of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṅa.
Prabhupāda: No, no, you said Jayadeva's.
Indian man (1): We have taken some merely some lyrics of songs of Jayadeva.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. That is also dealing with the gopīs. Dehi pada-pallavam udaram. So these things are not ordinary things. You should understand that. If you make, propagate, then the people... I have seen one book one rascal Bhaṭṭācārya has written. And the United Nation or something like that supported, gave him, them, money. And in the cover of the book he has given a picture of Rādhārāṅī sitting naked. This is going on.
Indian man (1): No, sir, the pictures you were having, this rāsa-līlā, this is also these very things. We have seen those pictures.
Prabhupāda: No, but... No, that's all right. That picture is in the book. That book is... We are translating Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. And what...
Indian man (1): No, even in mandir there is a big photograph of Rādhā, puspanna[?], Rādhā rāsa-līlā.
Prabhupāda: That is not presented in that way. So we do not say... But these warnings that... It is... We must understand it is very confidential thing. It is not for ordinary men. If we present as ordinary thing, that is distortion.
Indian man (1): Sir, our literature...
Prabhupāda: Our... I have got stricture that we don't present...
Indian man (2): [showing picture] This is our... Here. You made this. This is...
Prabhupāda: This is Rādhā-Kṛṣṅa. That's all right. But generally, gopīs, rasa-līlā and gopīs vastra-haraṅa-līlā...
Indian man (2): No, no. Vastra-haraṅa is not...
Indian man (1): All is concentrated—the Rādhā-Kṛṣṅa līlā.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Why don't you present...? Kṛṣṅa has so many līlās. Just like... Where is our Kṛṣṅa book? You have got?
Hari-śauri: I can get a copy.
Prabhupāda: Yes. There is...
Hari-śauri: Any volume, or...?
Prabhupāda: That... Kṛṣṅa is killing Kamsa.
Indian man (1): That is the final līlā of Śrī Kṛṣṅa.
Prabhupāda: Not final.
Indian man (1): No, we are having four things. We have an institution here. We are just presenting the Kṛṣṅa līlās part by part. First we are presenting the bāla-līlā, the children part...
Prabhupāda: So why don't you present Kṛṣṅa's fighting in the...?
Indian man (2): We will.
Prabhupāda: Just like Kurukṣetra.
Indian man (1): That is Mahābhārata. That is the part also.
Prabhupāda: That is also kṛṣṅa-līlā.
Indian man (1): For sure. So we have now produced three parts, and two more parts are there to be produced. [break]
Prabhupāda: Take prasāda.
[pause] Generally... Of course, I do not know what you have done. Generally they present rāsa-līlā, they describe rāsa-līlā. These professional Bhāgavata means they immediately begin to recite rāsa-līlā. Bhāgavata reading dissertation means rāsa-līlā. And people take in a different way, that "Kṛṣṅa was woman-hunter. He married sixteen thousand wives, and He had three hundred thousand gopīs, and He was enjoying with woman. Just see." I saw one doctor. He was a debauch. He was Muhammadan. So his friend came. So... In Calcutta. So he was addressing, kibhava[?] Kṛṣṅa. Just see. Kṛṣṅa means debauch.
Indian man (2): No.
Prabhupāda: No, no, you don't mean, but people have taken like that. Anyone who is woman-hunter, he is Kṛṣṅa. This is going on.
Indian man (2): Therefore, Gurujī, we have started...
Indian man (1): This is the spiritual way we have started.
Indian man (2): Spiritual way, we started from that Vṛndāvana, with this Kṛṣṅa... Ātmā, Paramātmā [Hindi]. Here to start. Then we'll go to that...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Why you start from this? Why not start Kṛṣṅa's birth, Kṛṣṅa's playing with cowherd boys, Kṛṣṅa's...?
Indian man (1): So we have that līlā. That is bāla-līlā.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Indian man (2): Then here Kṛṣṅa... The spring has come, and this is... You have got here the Govardhana-pūjā, and Kṛṣṅa's līlā with these cowherd boys, and they're going on. That is [indistinct]. In the spring they are going out... Here, in Orissa also, in Bengal also. On the full moon day of Phalguṅa we get that goṣṭha, where all the cows meet together, and we get this. From that function we started. We have established that...
Prabhupāda: On the whole, my point is: it is a very difficult subject matter. So unless we very carefully deal, people will misunderstand.
Indian man (2): We have carefully dealt with...
Indian man (1): So we have given them images the superpower of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṅa.
Indian man (2): It is not a question of sex. It is super divine power.
Prabhupāda: You say like that.
Indian man (2): No, no. We are presenting. I am presenting this way. That is superpower.
Indian man (1): When Madhu-maṅgala, when he was thinking that Śrī Kṛṣṅa is a general man and was for these ladies only, then he saw that viśvarūpa of Śrī Kṛṣṅa on the screen, all the universes inside Śrī Kṛṣṅa...
Indian man (2): All the universes moving about.
Prabhupāda: That's nice.
Indian man (2): We have taken that aspect, that He's a superpower.
Indian man (1): When he is thinking He's man, He's not the man. He's the superman.
Indian man (2): Also we have seen that...
Indian man (1): And all the universes inside revolving.
Indian man (2): That is our message. Kṛṣṅa is not ordinary. Superpower.
Prabhupāda: He's the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
Indian man (2): He's the supreme power.
Indian man (1): We have produced this. Also we have produced things last ten years. Last, even Orissa, this līlā, Śrī Kṛṣṅa līlā, is very famous from the very ancient years.
Indian man (2): Not from the sex. That aspect... [break]
Prabhupāda: ...fourth, Thirty-fifth Chapter, when Parīkṣit Mahārāja was inquiring from Śukadeva Gosvāmī that Kṛṣṅa came to establish religious principles...
Hari-śauri: I just read that.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Hari-śauri: I just read that about a second ago.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes. Find it.
Hari-śauri: "Songs of the Gopīs," I think.
Prabhupāda: He pointed out this, that "He came to establish religious principles. How is that He danced with other's wife in midnight?" This question was raised by Parīkṣit Mahārāja to Śukadeva Gosvāmī, and how he has answered? Read it.
Hari-śauri: Says, "There is a distinction between Lord Kṛṣṅa's dancing with the gopīs and the ordinary dancing of living entities within the material world. In order to clear up further misconceptions about the rāsa dance and the affairs of Kṛṣṅa and the gopīs, Mahārāja Parīkṣit, the hearer of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, told Śukadeva Gosvāmī: 'Kṛṣṅa appeared on the earth to establish the regulative principles of religion and to curb the predominance of irreligion. But the behavior of Kṛṣṅa and the gopīs might encourage irreligious principles in the material world. I am simply surprised that He would act in such a way and join the company of others' wives in the dead of night.' "
Prabhupāda: Just see.
Hari-śauri: "This statement of Parīkṣit Mahārāja's was very much appreciated by Śukadeva Gosvāmī. The answer anticipates the abominable activities of the Māyāvādī impersonalists, who place themselves in the position of Kṛṣṅa and enjoy the company of young girls and women. The basic Vedic injunctions never allow a person to enjoy sex with any woman except one's own wife. Kṛṣṅa's appreciation of the gopīs appeared to be distinctly in violation of these rules. Mahārāja Parīkṣit understood the total situation from Śukadeva Gosvāmī, yet to further clear the transcendental nature of Kṛṣṅa and the gopīs in the rāsa dance, he expressed his surprise. This is very important in order to check the unrestricted association with women by the prākṛta-sahajiyā. In his statement, Mahārāja Parīkṣit has used several important..."
Prabhupāda: In Vṛndāvana this prākṛta-sahajiyā, they are making bhajana that a man, he thinks that "I am Kṛṣṅa"; another woman...
Indian man (2): That is Rādhā.
Prabhupāda: "Rādhā." This rascaldom is going on.
Indian man (1): Others are gopīs. It was also at Orissa also previously.
Prabhupāda: Just see.
Indian man (2): That is gone. That is gone. Previously in that rāsas, they get to decorate oneself and Kṛṣṅa.
Prabhupāda: They have taken it as bhajana, to associate with other woman, and he becomes Kṛṣṅa, and he's Rādhārāṅī, and they're making bhajana. This rascaldom is going on. Go on.
Hari-śauri: "In his statement, Mahārāja Parīkṣit has used several important words which require clarification. The first word, jugupsitaṁ, means 'abominable.' The first doubt of Parīkṣit Mahārāja was as follows: Lord Kṛṣṅa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who has advented Himself to establish religious principles. Why then did He mix with others' wives in the dead of night and enjoy dancing, embracing and kissing? According to Vedic injunctions this is not allowed. Also, when the gopīs first came to Him, He gave instructions to them to return to their homes. To call the wives of other persons or young girls and enjoy dancing with them is certainly abominable according to the Vedas. And why should Kṛṣṅa have done this? Another word used here is āptakāma. Some may take it for granted that Kṛṣṅa was very lusty amongst young girls, but Parīkṣit Mahārāja said that this was not possible. He could not be lusty. First of all, from the material calculation He was only eight years old. At that age a boy cannot be lusty. Aptakāma means that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is self-satisfied. Even if He were lusty, He does not need to take help from others to satisfy His lusty desires. The next point is that although not lusty Himself, He might have been induced by the lusty desires of the gopīs. But Mahārāja Parīkṣit then used another word, yadupati, which indicates that Kṛṣṅa is the most exalted personality in the dynasty of the Yadus. The kings in the dynasty of Yadu were considered to be the most pious, and their descendants were also like that."
Prabhupāda: This is described in the śāstra. If one hears of the Yadu-vaṁśa, he becomes purified. And Kṛṣṅa is addressed Yadupati. Then?
Hari-śauri: "Having taken birth in that family, how could Kṛṣṅa have been induced even by the gopīs? It is concluded therefore that it was not possible for Kṛṣṅa to do anything abominable. But Mahārāja Parīkṣit was in doubt as to why Kṛṣṅa acted in that way. What was the real purpose? Another word Mahārāja Parīkṣit used when he addressed Śukadeva Gosvāmī is suvrata, which means to take a vow to enact pious activities. Śukadeva Gosvāmī was an educated brahmacārī, and under the circumstance it was not possible for him to indulge in sex. This is strictly prohibited for brahmacārīs, and what to speak of a brahmacārī like Śukadeva Gosvāmī. But because the circumstances of the rāsa dance were very suspect, Mahārāja Parīkṣit inquired for clarification from Śukadeva Gosvāmī. Śukadeva Gosvāmī immediately replied that transgressions of religious principles by the supreme controller testify to His great power. For example, fire can consume any abominable thing. That is the manifestation of the supremacy of fire. Similarly, the sun can absorb water from urine or from stool, and the sun is not polluted. Rather, due to the influence of sunshine the polluted, contaminated place becomes disinfected and sterilized. One may also argue that since Kṛṣṅa is the supreme authority, His activities should be followed. In answer to this question, Śukadeva Gosvāmī has very clearly said, īśvarāṅām, or the supreme controller, may sometimes violate His instructions, but this is only possible for the controller Himself and not for the followers. Unusual and uncommon activities by the controller can never be imitated. Śukadeva Gosvāmī warns that the conditioned followers, who are not actually in control, should never even imagine imitating the uncommon activities of the controller.
A Māyāvādī philosopher may falsely claim to be God, or Kṛṣṅa, but he cannot actually act like Kṛṣṅa. He can persuade his followers to falsely imitate the rāsa dance, but he is unable to lift Govardhana Hill. We have many experiences in the past of Māyāvādī rascals deluding their followers by posing themselves as Kṛṣṅa in order to enjoy rāsa līlā. In many instances they were checked by the government, arrested and punished. In Orissa, Ṭhākura Bhaktivinoda also punished the so-called incarnation of Viṣṅu who was imitating rāsa-līlā with young girls. There were many complaints against him. At that time Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura was a magistrate, and the government deputed him to deal with that rascal, and he punished him very severely. The rāsa-līlā dance cannot be imitated by anyone. Śukadeva Gosvāmī warns that one should not even think of imitating it. He specifically mentions that if out of foolishness one tries to imitate Kṛṣṅa's rāsa dance he will be killed, just like a person who wants to imitate Lord Śiva's drinking of an ocean of poison. Lord Śiva drank an ocean of poison and kept it within his throat. The poison made his throat turn blue, and therefore Lord Śiva is called nīla-kaṅṭha. But if any ordinary person tries to imitate Lord Śiva by drinking poison or by smoking gañja, he is sure be vanquished and will die within a very short time. Lord Śrī Kṛṣṅa's dealing with the gopīs was under special circumstances."
Prabhupāda: It is not for public show. That is the idea.
Hari-śauri: There's a little bit more. Should I read it?
Prabhupāda: Read it.
Hari-śauri: "Most of the gopīs in their previous lives were very great sages, expert in the studies of the Veda, and when Lord Kṛṣṅa appeared as Lord Rāmacandra they wanted to enjoy with Him. Lord Rāmacandra gave them the benediction that their desires would be fulfilled when He would appear as Kṛṣṅa. Therefore the desire of the gopīs to enjoy the appearance of Lord Kṛṣṅa was long cherished. So they approached goddess Katyāyanī to have Kṛṣṅa as their husband. There are so many other circumstances also which testify to the supreme authority of Kṛṣṅa and show that He is not bound to the rules and regulations of the material world. In special cases He acts as He likes to favor His devotees. This is only possible for Him because He is the supreme controller. People in general should follow the instructions of Lord Kṛṣṅa as given in Bhagavad-gītā and should not even imagine imitating Lord Kṛṣṅa in the rāsa dance."
Indian man (1): In our original language, in Oriya, there is a book, preface of the book Mahā-vandanā. This is written by...
Prabhupāda: Mahā-vandanā is a fact.
Indian man (1): It's a fact. The preface of the book...
Prabhupāda: That is all right. But it is meant for the liberated soul.
Indian man (2): Certainly.
Indian man (1): Gurujī, I am telling you a single word.
Prabhupāda: So it cannot be demonstrated to the ordinary person.
Indian man (1): No, one bābājī, Vaiṣṅava-carana dāsa, years back, he was at...
Prabhupāda: No. There are many bābājīs. Just like I told you...
Indian man (1): No, no. He wrote a preface for that book. The preface is...
Prabhupāda: ...that he's thinking himself as Kṛṣṅa and others' women as the gopīs. They are doing that.
Indian man (1): No, no. Same thing. It has been written. It has been advised every time, time to time. This is... Like the poison of the...
Indian man (2): Like poison of the Siva... This is in our language also.
Indian man (1): This is in our language also. This text...
Indian man (2): And he has observed there, Mahārāja, "Those who will act Kṛṣṅa and Rādhā, they should have sādhana. They should devotee. They should not take any..."
Indian man (1): They will be completely devotees...
Indian man (2): You have to go to that tulasī tree and you have to worship that fruit of...
Prabhupāda: My point is that for ordinary discussion, ordinary show, these things are not meant for. That is my point.
Indian man (1): No, we are just depicting the līlās.
Prabhupāda: It is not that they should be forbidden altogether. No. That is meant for a certain, for a high-class devotees, not for ordinary persons.
Indian man (2): Here they say that when you get to this Mahā-vandanā or Kṛṣṅa līlā, they take [indistinct]... Any party. Even one Vaiṣṅava, he was getting a troupe and making that Kṛṣṅa conscious movement here. Or that some of this... The Suri Patel, he became leper. And the woman who was acting as the Rādhā, she also became the victim of leprosy.
Prabhupāda: So why should take such risk? [laughs]
Indian man (2): No. No, no, no. What happened...
Prabhupāda: It happened, and it must happen. It must happen. So why should you take that risk?
Indian man (1): This is... We are depicting the līlā...
Prabhupāda: Any... Anyway...
Indian man (1): You are telling, and your disciples are always telling about Kṛṣṅa's sacred[?] līlās. So we are your disciples, and we are telling the līlā in different form. It is in vision. And we are starting from Sarva-bhumna or Sarvabhauma, Dampati...
Indian man (2): We started for keeping the traditions of the songs of the Vaiṣṅavas.
Indian man (1): All traditions of Śrī Kṛṣṅa līlā, all Vaiṣṅava—everything.
Indian man (2): One aspect. One aspect we have taken, that supreme, the message, that essence...
Prabhupāda: No, no... It is... Kṛṣṅa līlā is in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, why don't you begin from the first chapter of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]? Just show how Kṛṣṅa is supreme...
Indian man (1): He's always supreme.
Prabhupāda: ...how everything is coming, coming from Him. Janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ svarāt [SB 1.1.1]. These things explain by picture. That will be real education. Why you jump over on the Tenth Canto immediately? That is my point.
Indian man (1): No, we understand. We are depicting the...
Prabhupāda: Begin.
Indian man: ...supreme aspect, supreme superman.
Prabhupāda: Just like one learns from ABCD, not jumping over M.A. class. That is my point. Teach people from the ABCD. So this is beginning of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: janmādy asya yataḥ. What Kṛṣṅa? He is the original. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ [Bg 10.8].
[I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who know this perfectly engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts.]
Show that by film, how He is sarvasya prabhavo. That will be...
Indian man (1): So He is always supreme power.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Not... You are going to produce some film. Begin from the first chapter of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Why you jump over the Tenth Canto? That is kept very confidential. Unless one understands... By understanding nine cantos of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, he has no entrance. Just like you cannot enter into the law college unless you are graduate. So Śukadeva Gosvāmī has arranged in such a way that one should understand what is Kṛṣṅa by reading these nine cantos. Then he can enter into the Kṛṣṅa's līlā and Kṛṣṅa's birth. What is the purpose? He could have given Kṛṣṅa... Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is for Kṛṣṅa. So we have named this, Kṛṣṅa, kṛṣṅa-katha. So first kṛṣṅa-katha is: Kṛṣṅa is explaining Himself in the Bhagavad-gītā. Present Bhagavad-gītā. Then one accept Kṛṣṅa as the Supreme Personality: sarva dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṅaṁ vraja [Bg 18.66]. When he comes to that stage, then Bhāgavata begins. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra paramo nirmatsarāṅām [SB 1.1.2].
[Completely rejecting all religious activities which are materially motivated, this Bhāgavata Purāṅa propounds the highest truth, which is understandable by those devotees who are fully pure in heart. The highest truth is reality distinguished from illusion for the welfare of all. Such truth uproots the threefold miseries. This beautiful Bhāgavatam, compiled by the great sage Vyāsadeva [in his maturity], is sufficient in itself for God realization. What is the need of any other scripture? As soon as one attentively and submissively hears the message of Bhāgavatam, by this culture of knowledge the Supreme Lord is established within his heart.]
Paramo nirmatsarāṅām, eh? Unless one is matsara... "Oh, Kṛṣṅa is doing that? Why I cannot do it?" The sahajiyā bābājīs, they do that. That is matsaratā, that "Kṛṣṅa can do? I can do." So he simply imitates Kṛṣṅa's rāsa-līlā. And Kṛṣṅa can raise the Govardhana Hill—that is not possible. That is... What is called? Mythology. What he cannot do, he takes as mythology. And what he can easily imitate and go to hell, that is very good.
Indian man (2): This very assertion, to our eyes, that... Our Mādhava tells about Kṛṣṅa. So we can't take it otherwise.
Prabhupāda: No, no, you cannot take, but the public will take like that.
Indian man (1): No, when Mādhava thinks that "Give me the flute and I'll be the Kṛṣṅa," then he remains in the...
Indian man (2): Somebody is coming...
Indian man (1): This Viśva-rūpa.
Prabhupāda: No, our... Just like we are making Kṛṣṅa consciousness propaganda all over... So from this...
Indian man (2): That, education, for want of education.
Prabhupāda: That is wanted. What is Kṛṣṅa you should understand.
Indian man (2): That is education, not propaganda.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So these boys, they are advised to follow the regulative principle: no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no fish, no egg, no onion. So many "no's."
Indian man (2): You see, that is also... [indistinct]
Indian man (1): No, Gurujī, you cannot take these persons who are by this strictness as your disciple only.
Prabhupāda: No. Yes. Yes.
Indian man (1): You should take us as your disciple even.
Prabhupāda: You should follow my rules and regulations—I can take.
Indian man (2): As you have advised that a sun doesn't only act on the fouls of purity. The purity is for all, even the...
Prabhupāda: But I am not that sun.
Indian man (1): We're also enlightened by your knowledge.
Indian man (2): No, no, sir. Definitely. At least light of this... Light of the Kṛṣṅa consciousness. Kṛṣṅa consciousness, you are giving it to all.
Prabhupāda: So... No, no. So you have to take the light and the sun—a process. Ādau śraddhā tato sādhu saṅgo tato bhajana-kriyā [Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.4.15].
Indian man (2): All right.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Indian man (2): When you are giving a darśana... Yesterday we came to see you. That, these people had to go to Bombay yesterday. But when a certain uttered that you have come here, we were astonished. They ran to my office, told me that "Gurujī has come." "No, you are wrong." "No, you see. It is from our local newspaper." So he came from... He's from Bengal. So he came for us and told me they would let us go and see. By five o'clock they had told him... "Let us go." We came here, and there's some people here that center that I was talking to him. That engineer... When Gurujī tells that there is no rain, he was searching for the water, and the ground water survey... He is engineer of the ground water survey. So I was telling him that way. So Gurujī, when you are giving the light, wisdom, or making blessing that you become filled the superness. You surrender yourself.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our propaganda.
Indian man (2): The surrender to... So similarly, suppose I am a drunkard.
Prabhupāda: No, it is no disqualification.
Indian man (2): Gurujī, my argument is this.
Prabhupāda: Yes, Caitanya Mahāprabhu...
Indian man (2): We are associated with the sādhus.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Indian man (2): All associated with the sādhu. That will clean us. As you have told us in this book, that becomes more cleaner.
Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu... Caitanya Mahāprabhu... No. We are prepared to take you also. Why not? It is not difficult. That Caitanya Mahāprabhu, when accepted Jagāi-Mādhāi, so Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura sings, pāpī tāpī jata chilo, hari-nāme uddharilo tāra sākṣī jagāi mādhāi. So the evidence is not that by words, but evidence, action.
Indian man (2): By action.
Prabhupāda: So how? How He accepted? When Jagāi-Mādhāi, after injuring Nityānanda, so Caitanya Mahāprabhu was very angry, that "I shall kill them!" So at that time Nityānanda begged, "Sir, You have promised not to take weapon in this avatāra. So excuse them." So as soon Nityānanda Prabhu said like that, both the brothers fell down on the feet of Caitanya Mahāprabhu: "Sir. Excuse us. We have done wrong. So please deliver us. We are most sinful." So Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that "You are sinful. That is not disqualification. But if you want My āśraya, then you stop. No more. Whatever you have done, that's all right; I excuse you. But no more." So they said, āra nare bāpa: "Bās, whatever we have done." So this is wanted. But if we continue to take shelter of Caitanya Mahāprabhu or His representative, at the same time continue our sinful activities, that is not desirable.
Indian man (2): That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Indian man (1): Gurujī, we are taking your life as our own way. We are taking it.
Prabhupāda: No, you cannot take in your way. That is not possible, no.
Indian man (1): But you are spreading it all through the world.
Indian man (2): Gurujī, my soul, when I surrender, becomes the...
Prabhupāda: That is the first condition. You must surrender.
Indian man (2): That is surrender, the only thing.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the beginning. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekāṁ śaraṅaṁ [Bg 18.66]. Unless Jagāi-Mādhāi surrendered and stopped their sinful activities... That is wanted.
Indian man (1): But there are some ways. Even I am influenced by your ideas. That is some other thing. Somebody's influenced by your appearance. Somebody's influenced by your dialects.
Prabhupāda: No, there is no question of amendment.
Indian man (2): No amendment.
Prabhupāda: You can... Yes. You say that "Somebody does like, somebody does like, somebody..." No. Full surrender. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam [Bg 18.66].
Indian man (2): No conditional. Conditional means that we have hidden here an enemy to fight over his property.
Prabhupāda: If I would have compromised, then many millions of students I would have got. Anyone comes to me—"First surrender."
Indian man (2): But Gurujī, kindly excuse me. There is Droṅa and Ekalavya.
Prabhupāda: That's nice, but...
Indian man (2): But if I have got the concentration, I can find you in me.
Prabhupāda: That is special case.
Indian man (2): That is special case. That is devotion. That is surrender, actually a complete surrender.
Prabhupāda: Still, you know... Surrender... Surrender, but he did not do it properly. Therefore Droṅācārya did not like.
Indian man (2): But he has got the devotion. He has complete surrendered to Droṅācārya.
Prabhupāda: You know that Ekalavya? He asked that "You do that."
Indian man (2): Oh, yes. In the interest of the Kauravas and Pāṅḍavas.
Prabhupāda: Anyway, that means he did not like.
Indian man (1): But the superpower.
Indian man (2): I don't know. But what you think that actually Droṅa, er, Ekalavya is the disciple of...?
Prabhupāda: The general process we have to accept: ādau śraddhā. If you think that "This line of action is very nice, Kṛṣṅa consciousness," this is called śraddhā. And śraddhā is explained by Kavirāja Gosvāmī, śraddhā śabde viśvāsa surila niścaya, kṛṣṅe bhakti kaile sarva karma kṛta haya. This is śraddhā. When one is firmly convinced. Firmly. Sudṛdha viśvāsa.
Indian man (2): Sir, we have got similar in Oriya. Viśvāsa śunile kṛṣṅa tāte vata. Tāte vata is surrender. You surrender.
Prabhupāda: Surrender means full faith, that "Whatever Kṛṣṅa said is all right. I'll not do anything, and I shall simply surrender to Kṛṣṅa." That is surrender, not that one may be attracted by this, one may be attracted by this, one may...
Indian man (1): No, we read literature, and we are surrendered.
Prabhupāda: Simply I am attracted with the words of Kṛṣṅa. That's all. No compromise.
Indian man (2): No compromise. No compromise. There is no question of compromise.
Prabhupāda: That is not surrender.
Indian man (1): Gurujī, we must get your blessing definitely. In future we are...
Prabhupāda: Then, if you make conditional blessing...
Indian man (2): No, no. No condition. With full devotion, full surrender... [Hindi or Bengali]
Prabhupāda: Best thing is... This is the formula given by every big personality. The Rūpa Gosvāmī, he is authorized person for bhakti-mārga. He says, ādau śraddhā tato sādhu-saṅga.
Indian man (2): We are so lucky. We are writing the letter... We wrote here that "From distant land of Orissa, Gurujī... This is your literature has tempted us, and perhaps it is your intention that we should go upon..., with Nitai Gaura..."
Prabhupāda: Just like our this Kṛṣṅa book, from the very beginning, or Bhagavad-gītā. You try...
Indian man (2): So eleven or twelve days' time... We have posted the letter on seventh, and yesterday this gentleman from here rang me that "You were searching for the Gurujī, and he is at..." "Nonsense." Really simply..., when I am busy giving some dictation to my steno. "He is humbug." So he came forward, and from there we came here.
Prabhupāda: Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṅa. So if you want to give education, take it from the very beginning, ABCD, and present nicely so that people may..., can take advantage.
Indian man (1): We have that līlā also, bāla-līlā. The children, childhood...
Prabhupāda: Bāla-līlā also will not be understood. They will think, "What is this?" That is stated in the Śrīmad... Itthaṁ brahma-sukhānubhūtyā dāsyaṁ gatānāṁ para-daivatena, māyāśritānāṁ nara-dārakena [Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 10.12.11]. Māyāśritānām. They'll not.... They'll: "What is this nonsense? A boy is playing, and they are worshiping Him?"
Indian man (2): But when they see it...
Prabhupāda: That's it. These people will take like that, that "What is that? A boy is playing with some cows and calves, and these foolish persons are worshiping." They will take it.
Indian man (2): It is said also there. When Yaśodā tries to beat Him, oh, He shows the universe.
Prabhupāda: So who will understand that?
Indian man (2): No, no, no, no. All understand it. [Hindi] All will understand, sir.
Prabhupāda: So beginning means from the Bhāgavata beginning or from Bhagavad-gītā begins.
Indian man (2): But when Vasudeva is coming with Kṛṣṅa, and Yamunā goes out, goes out, and it makes a way and that...
Indian man (1): Years long back, Orissa was full devotees of Śrī Kṛṣṅa, long back.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. I know that.
Indian man (2): Kṛṣṅa-līlā means when they read that Bhāgavata.
Indian man (1): Our grandfather, grandmother, they are more well read and well known about Śrī Kṛṣṅa.
Indian man (2): Still they are living if you go to a village.
Prabhupāda: But your grandmother did it, all right, but now you are asking, "What is God?" This is your position. Your position is that you are asking, "What is God?" That means you do not believe what is Kṛṣṅa. Otherwise why you are asking, "What is God?"
Indian man (2): I tell you...
Prabhupāda: Now first of all, you answer this. Yesterday the question was "What is God?"
Indian man (2): The gentleman asked.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You say the Orissa is whole kṛṣṅa-bhakta, and he's asking, "What is God?" This is your position.
Indian man (1): He's asking to get a word from you, perhaps.
Prabhupāda: Why? Why this botheration if he knows Kṛṣṅa? I was surprised. If he's actually kṛṣṅa-bhakta, if he knows Kṛṣṅa, then why should he ask, "Who is God? What is God?" Don't try to defend in that way.
Indian man (2): No, no, we're not defending.
Prabhupāda: If you know God, why should you ask, "What is God?"
Indian man (2): Unless he knows God, why he's not come here?
Prabhupāda: No, you are very proud that "Our Orissa is very advanced in knowing Kṛṣṅa."
Indian man (2): No, no...
Prabhupāda: You just now told. And your Orissa man says, "What is God?" Just try to understand your position. You are advertising that you know Kṛṣṅa very well, and again you are asking, "What is God?"
Indian man (2): No, devotees.
Indian man (1): Kṛṣṅa... I mean to say that Kṛṣṅa devotees.
Prabhupāda: No, no, Kṛṣṅa devotee... You are saying that your Orissa is very much great advanced in understanding Kṛṣṅa, and your Orissa man is asking, "What is God?" This is contradictory. He does not know what is Kṛṣṅa. Otherwise there was no question to ask, "What is God?" Kṛṣṅas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28].
[All of the above-mentioned incarnations are either plenary portions or portions of the plenary portions of the Lord, but Lord Śrī Kṛṣṅa is the original Personality of Godhead. All of them appear on planets whenever there is a disturbance created by the atheists. The Lord incarnates to protect the theists.]
He should have known. But you have forgotten. Admit this.
Indian man (1): Oh, definitely.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore you have to learn from the very beginning. In foreign countries, Indian students, they say, "Oh, Swāmījī, what will be done by this Kṛṣṅa, Hare Kṛṣṅa? We require technology." They say like that.
Indian man (2): Indian students.
Prabhupāda: We have rejected. Otherwise why there was so much talk, yata mat tata path? Why yata mat tata path? The Supreme Lord Kṛṣṅa is saying mām ekam. And yata mat? What is this nonsense? Admit that you have forgotten Kṛṣṅa, or you do not know what is Kṛṣṅa. Otherwise why bring this all question—"What is God?" "Yata mat tata path," "Why Kṛṣṅa was killed?" Kṛṣṅa can be killed?
Indian man (2): He asked?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Who asked?
Indian man (2): That gentleman yesterday was saying.
Prabhupāda: Yes. "Why Kṛṣṅa was killed?" Just see how rascal question this is.
Indian man (2): He was not killed. Kṛṣṅa was not killed.
Prabhupāda: That is the fact, but he... Why he questioned this, "How Kṛṣṅa was killed?"
Indian man (1): I was not there.
Indian man (2): Yesterday we sat here. [Oriya with other guest]
Prabhupāda: Ordinary question... Kṛṣṅa has advised in the Bhagavad-gītā, na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit, na hanyate hanyamāne śarī... [Bg 2.20]. This is for living entity, soul. And living entity is the part and parcel of Kṛṣṅa. So the part and parcel of Kṛṣṅa, na jāyate na mriyate. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre. And "Kṛṣṅa, the supreme whole, He was killed." Just see the question—fun. Means he has no common sense even—"Kṛṣṅa was killed." "The part and parcel cannot be killed, but the whole can be killed." Just see his intelligence. If I say, "Not a single portion of this room can be destroyed, but the whole house was destroyed," what is this nonsense? Part and parcel... Na jāyate na mriyate kadācit. Kadācit, this word, is used. "At any time." And "The whole is killed."
Indian man (1): Who can kill?
Prabhupāda: No, he asked this question. Nobody.
Indian man (1): Who can kill the supreme power?
Indian man (2): Oriya Bhāgavatam also it is said that no one can kill...
Prabhupāda: No, the atheist class, they ask this question: "Kṛṣṅa was killed; therefore He's ordinary man."
Indian man (1): It is a story.
Prabhupāda: Not story. So you have to learn Kṛṣṅa. That is my point. Manuṣyāṅāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaya... [Bg 7.3].
I[Out of many thousands among men, one may endeavor for perfection, and of those who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth.]
ndian man (1): [Oriya]
Indian man (3): Our grandfather, grandmother, all were addicted to Lord Śrī Kṛṣṅa. But we have forgotten it.
Prabhupāda: You have forgotten, so that now you are asking, "What is God?" This is your position.
Indian man (1): That is what happened now.
Prabhupāda: So you should know your position first of all.
Indian man (3): Gradually we are now developing, making drama, this, that. We are taking it just as if Kṛṣṅa līlā itself is a fact. It is a theatrical thing?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Indian man (3): In that way we are acting. That's why we are going to Bhagavad-gītā, this, that, all these things, only to...
Prabhupāda: Satisfy our senses.
Indian man (1): Senses. But not that.
Prabhupāda: So if you are serious, you let us combine together, learn Kṛṣṅa consciousness, deliver your country, as Caitanya Mahāprabhu advised, that āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra ei deśa [Cc Madhya 7.128].
[Instruct everyone to follow the orders of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṅa as they are given in the Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. In this way become a spiritual master and try to liberate everyone in this land.]
The whole country has gone to hell. So many people come, ask me all odd question... [indistinct] [break]
Indian man (3): Out of their [Bengali]. This Hare Kṛṣṅa.
Prabhupāda: [Bengali with guests]
Indian man (2): Yesterday one of my colleagues asked me, "What is this [Bengali]? And other people become concerned like the Buddhist. Why do we who defend the motherland forget about it? But Swāmījī has started it not only Europe, America. It has started universal... Except India. You said that you are educated man, you go and hear lecture..."
Prabhupāda: No, we are recognized by all educated circle all over the world. If you read the opinions of scholars...
Indian man (2): We have read many of your publications. And I was just telling him like dharma, that "Swāmījī has done only one thing, that he has made the universe not only confined to India. He has made the whole world conscious about Kṛṣṅa, to know about Kṛṣṅa at least, the real Kṛṣṅa, or the superpower. He has made this point."
Prabhupāda: Therefore we have to progress very cautiously, very cautiously, not irresponsibly. That is our point.
Indian man (2): Recently I had been to Calcutta for the recording of this songs of Kṛṣṅa līlā. [Bengali]
Indian man (1): Yaśodā and Kṛṣṅa. [Bengali with other guests]
Indian man (2): Unless they go back to Kṛṣṅa, nobody can help us today. All the frustration—everything, everything else.
Prabhupāda: [Bengali] Hare Kṛṣṅa. [end]