Evening Lecture

Prabhupāda: So we shall continue that Rāmānanda? No. So who will read and explain?

Indian guest or devotee: So shall I read from the First Chapter?

Prabhupāda: No. Where he was.

Hari-śauri: You need a microphone?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: You won't be speaking, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: No. He will explain in Oriya. [break] [Gaura-Govinda translates in Oriya throughout] ...that is Vedic culture. As yesterday we were talking of varṅāśrama-dharma, four varṅas and four āśramas—brāhmaṅa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. So the Vedic culture means to execute the varṅāśrama. Now we are known as Hindus. The "Hindu" word is not to be found... [break] [aside:] A little disturbance will mar the situation. So Vedic culture means this varṅāśrama-dharma. The Muhammadans from the other side of River Sindhu, they have called us Hindu. Actually, this word "Hindu" you'll not find any Vedic scripture. So to accept this position—brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa—is compulsory. It is not that one has to take sannyāsa as a fashion. No. Actually it is absolutely necessary for any person at the last stage of life to accept sannyāsa. This Rāmānanda Rāya also retired from the government service. He met Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu advised him that "Now you retire from your governorship and come to Jagannātha Purī, your home, and let us talk together about spiritual life." So in this way he retired. So all the associates of Caitanya Mahāprabhu—śrī-rūpa sanātana bhaṭṭa-raghunātha śrī-jīva gopāla-bhaṭṭa dāsa-raghunātha—six Gosvāmīs, the direct disciples of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, they were all in renounced order of life. Then? Read. You read. You'll hear.

Indian guest or devotee: "Although the Gosvāmīs were very aristocratic, they became mendicant just to deliver the fallen souls according to the order of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu." [Gaura-Govinda translates]

Prabhupāda: About Gosvāmīs, Śrīnivāsa Ācārya, he has written, tyaktvā tūrṅam aśeṣa-maṅḍala-pati-śreṅīṁ sadā tuccha-vat bhūtvā dīna-gaṅeśakau karuṅayā kaupīna-kanthāśritau [Śrī Śrī Ṣaḍ Gosvāmy Aṣṭaka 4].

[I offer my respectful obeisances unto the six Gosvāmīs, namely Śrī Rūpa Gosvāmī, Śrī Sanātana Gosvāmī, Śrī Raghunātha Bhaṭṭa Gosvāmī, Śrī Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī, Śrī Jīva Gosvāmī, and Śrī Gopāla Bhaṭṭa Gosvāmī, who kicked off all association of aristocracy as insignificant. In order to deliver the poor conditioned souls, they accepted loincloths, treating themselves as mendicants, but they are always merged in the ecstatic ocean of the gopīs' love for Kṛṣṅa and bathe always and repeatedly in the waves of that ocean.]

[child talking]

[aside:] Please take out.

Tyaktvā tūrṅam aśeṣa-maṅḍala-pati-śreṅīm. They were ministers. Naturally their associates were very, very big zamindars and rich men, aśeṣa-maṅḍala-pati-śreṅīm. Maṅḍala-pati means leaders—social, political. So, gave up their company. Explain.

[Gaura-Govinda translates] Why?

Tyaktvā tūrṅam aśeṣa-maṅḍala-pati-śreṅīṁ sadā tuccha-vat bhūtvā dīna-gaṅeśakau karuṅayā kaupīna-kanthāśritau. Dīna-gaṅeśakau, the poor mass of people. We are thinking that we are advancing, but actually we are becoming poverty-stricken. So this very word is used, dīna-gaṅeśakau karuṅayā.

So this time is always. Unless the social leaders, the leaders of the society, they take care of the mass of people to educate them, dīna-gaṅeśakau karuṅayā, if they do not become compassionate to the poor mass of people, who will deliver them? They are poor because they have no spiritual conception of life. So that situation is always existing; therefore it is the duty of the leaders of the society, especially of the brāhmaṅas and kṣatriyas, to take sannyāsa and preach Kṛṣṅa consciousness to the mass of people. Dīna-gaṅeśakau karuṅayā kaupīna-kanthāśritau. Now we have got experience that many big, big leaders in political field—we have seen this noncooperation movement—they also took sannyāsa practically. But they could not live long because they could not tolerate the position of renouncement. But about the Gosvāmīs it is said,

tyaktvā tūrṅam aśeṣa-maṅḍala-pati-śreṅīṁ sadā tuccha-vat bhūtvā dīna-gaṅeśakau karuṅayā kaupīna-kanthāśritau gopī-bhāva-rasāmṛtābdhi-laharī-kallola-magnau muhur vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau...

There must be engagement, proper engagement. If the engagement is not Kṛṣṅa consciousness, then this so-called sannyāsa will be failure. Practically in Calcutta there was a big barrister, C. R. Das, he renounced everything, but he could not live long. Very shortly he died. [break] ...was their position.

So sannyāsa means to renounce for the Supreme, sannyāsa. Sat-nyāsa. If one takes to Kṛṣṅa consciousness and if he renounces family life and preaches Kṛṣṅa consciousness, then he will be happy, and the persons amongst whom he will preach, they will be happy. We have seen practically, many, many big, big sannyāsīs, they gave up this world—brahma satya jagan mithyā: "This world is mithyā. Let me take sannyāsa." But unfortunately, they could not stand in that position. After few years they come down again in social work, in political work. That means they could not understand what is Brahman. That is stated, confirmed in the śāstra that,

ye 'nye 'ravindākṣa vimukta-māninas tvayy asta-bhāvād aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ āruhya kṛcchreṅa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adho 'nādṛta-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ [SB 10.2.32]

[[Someone may say that aside from devotees, who always seek shelter at the Lord's lotus feet, there are those who are not devotees but who have accepted different processes for attaining salvation. What happens to them? In answer to this question, Lord Brahmā and the other demigods said:] O lotus-eyed Lord, although nondevotees who accept severe austerities and penances to achieve the highest position may think themselves liberated, their intelligence is impure. They fall down from their position of imagined superiority because they have no regard for Your lotus feet.]

Ye 'nye 'ravindakṣa. Ye aravindakṣa. Aravindakṣa is Kṛṣṅa. "Persons who are thinking that 'I have become liberated,' vimukta-mānina, they're actually... They're not mukta. Therefore," āruhya kṛcchreṅa paraṁ padam, "although they underwent very severe austerities and achieved the position in nirviśeṣa-brahma," āruhya kṛcchreṅa paraṁ padam, "but because they could not understand, my Lord, Your lotus feet, they," patanty adho, "they fall down." Just like in the modern age they are going very high by aeroplane or sputnik, but because they do not get a shelter either in the moon planet or Mars planet, they again come down. So simply speculative knowledge, philosophical knowledge, will not give us actual shelter in the nirviśeṣa, nirākāra-brahman.

The Absolute Truth we can realize in three stages. This is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam:

vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate [SB 1.2.11]

[Learned transcendentalists who know the Absolute Truth call this nondual substance Brahman, Paramātmā or Bhagavān.]

Yes. The brahmānu-bhūti is simply negation of this material world: brahmā satya jagan mithyā. But brahmānu-bhūti is not final. We are part and parcel of Kṛṣṅa, sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs 5.1].

[Kṛṣṅa who is known as Govinda is the Supreme Godhead. He has an eternal blissful spiritual body. He is the origin of all. He has no other origin and He is the prime cause of all causes.]

So simply understanding of our eternity—ahaṁ brahmāsmi—is not sufficient. So that is only appreciation of the eternity portion. And then, if one further makes progress, he... Paramātmā. Paramātmā means cit, cid-āṁśa. And lastly, unless we come to the shelter of the lotus feet of Kṛṣṅa, there is no ānanda. And every one of us—ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt [Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12].

[By nature, the Supreme Lord is blissful.]

God is also ānandamaya. We, being part and parcel of God, we are also seeking after ānanda. So you cannot get permanent ānanda either by Brahman realization or Paramātmā realization. Unless you come to God realization, Personality of Godhead, there is no ānanda.

ānanda-cinmaya-rāsa-pratibhāvitābhis tābhir ya eva nija-rūpatayā kalābhiḥ goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhūto govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi [Bs 5.37]

[I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, residing in His own realm, Goloka, with Rādhā, resembling His own spiritual figure, the embodiment of the ecstatic potency possessed of the sixty-four artistic activities, in the company of Her confidantes [sakhīs], embodiments of the extensions of Her bodily form, permeated and vitalized by His ever-blissful spiritual rāsa.]

Govinda, Kṛṣṅa, is ānanda-cinmaya-rāsa. He is in the ānanda cinmaya. His ānanda is not jara-rāsa; it is cinmaya-rāsa. We should not understand, or misunderstand, Kṛṣṅa's līlā is just like ordinary human activity. Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī has described this Kṛṣṅa's ānanda, that,

rādhā kṛṣṅa-praṅaya-vikrtir hlādinī śaktir asmād ekātmānāv api bhuvi purā deha-bhedaṁ gatau tau śrī-caitanyākhyaṁ prakaṭam adhunā tad-dvayaṁ caikyam āptam... [Cc Ādi 1.5]

So we should understand Kṛṣṅa, how He is ānanda-cinmaya vigraha. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is ānanda-cinmaya vigraha—combination of hlādinī śakti, Śrīmatī Rādhārāṅī, and Kṛṣṅa together. Therefore the Vaiṣṅava sings, śrī-kṛṣṅa-caitanya rādhā-kṛṣṅa nahe anya. Rādhā-kṛṣṅa nahe anya. If we take shelter of the lotus feet of Śrī Kṛṣṅa Caitanya Mahāprabhu, then there is possibility to understand the Kṛṣṅa science.

So this Kṛṣṅa consciousness movement is trying to impregnate or push this movement throughout the world through the mercy of Śrī Kṛṣṅa Caitanya. And actually it is happening. By taking shelter of the lotus feet of Śrī Kṛṣṅa Caitanya Mahāprabhu, these Europeans and Americans, although they are supposed to be born in mleccha, yavana family, they are taking Kṛṣṅa consciousness so seriously. Otherwise it is very difficult to understand Kṛṣṅa.

manuṣyāṅāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye yatatām api siddhānāṁ kaścid vetti māṁ tattvataḥ [Bg 7.3]

[Out of many thousands among men, one may endeavor for perfection, and of those who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth.]

Out of many, many millions of persons, one is interested how to become perfect. Manuṣyāṅāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye. Siddhi means to understand one's own position.

Therefore we request everyone to take shelter of the lotus feet of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu to understand Kṛṣṅa. Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī, he has given his direction:

namo mahā-vadānyāya kṛṣṅa-prema-pradāya te kṛṣṅāya kṛṣṅa-caitanya nāmne gaura-tviṣe namaḥ [Cc Madhya 19.53]

[O most munificent incarnation! You are Kṛṣṅa Himself appearing as Śrī Kṛṣṅa Caitanya Mahāprabhu. You have assumed the golden color of Śrīmatī Rādhārāṅī, and You are widely distributing pure love of Kṛṣṅa. We offer our respectful obeisances unto You.]

Idea is Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī, offering his obeisances to Caitanya Mahāprabhu, namo mahā-vadānyāya: "The greatest munificent charitable person, because You are giving kṛṣṅa-prema. Nobody can understand Kṛṣṅa, but You are giving kṛṣṅa-prema." Namo mahā-vadānyāya kṛṣṅa-prema-pradāya te kṛṣṅāya kṛṣṅa-caitanya [Cc Madhya 19.53]: "You are Kṛṣṅa. You have appeared again as Kṛṣṅa Caitanya. Therefore I offer my obeisances." Similarly Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya, who was the learned scholar, paṅḍita, in the assembly of Mahārāja Pratāparudra...

[break] ...sabhā-paṅḍita. So he also has written many verses. One of them is that,

vairāgya-vidyā-nija-bhakti-yoga- śikṣārtham ekaḥ puruṣaḥ purāṅaḥ śrī-kṛṣṅa-caitanya-śarīra-dhārī kṛpāmbudhir yas tam ahaṁ prapadye [Cc Madhya 6.254]

"This Caitanya Mahāprabhu is the same person." Vairāgya-vidyā-nija-bhakti. "In order to teach Kṛṣṅa consciousness, He has now appeared as Kṛṣṅa Caitanya." Vairāgya-vidyā-nija-bhakti yoga-śikṣārtham ekaḥ puruṣaḥ purāṅaḥ [Cc Madhya 6.254]. Śāśvata-purāṅa. Kṛṣṅa is the purāṅa. Nava-yauvanaṁ ca. In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is said, advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṅa nava-yauvanaṁ ca [Bs 5.33].

[I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who is inaccessible to the Vedas, but obtainable by pure unalloyed devotion of the soul, who is without a second, who is not subject to decay, is without a beginning, whose form is endless, who is the beginning, and the eternal puruṣa; yet He is a person possessing the beauty of blooming youth.]

He's the oldest person, ādi-puruṣa, but nava-yauvana. So in every way you'll find that if we want to understand Kṛṣṅa, then we have to take shelter of this Kṛṣṅa's renounced order of life in the form of Śrī Kṛṣṅa Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

So Śrī Kṛṣṅa Caitanya Mahāprabhu's one of the confidential devotees was an Oriya, this Rāmānanda Rāya and Śikhi Māhiti. So it is a great opportunity for the Oriyas to understand Kṛṣṅa consciousness science through the mercy of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. We are discussing the talks between Caitanya Mahāprabhu and Rāmānanda Rāya. You'll kindly hear and take advantage of it and be benefited. [break]

That's all. So we can..., if they require, any question-answer. [break]

Indian man (1): ...Kṛṣṅa consciousness in gṛhastha āśrama?

Prabhupāda: They follow Śrī Rāmānanda Rāya. He was a gṛhastha. He was a responsible government officer. Still, he was the best disciple of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Rāmānanda Rāya, while talking with Caitanya Mahāprabhu, he was feeling little shamefulness because Caitanya Mahāprabhu was a great sannyāsī and coming from a very respectable brāhmaṅa family, and Rāmānanda Rāya, he belonged to the karaṅa caste of Orissa, and he was gṛhastha, at the same time in government service. So he was feeling little shameful like that, that "I am teaching Caitanya Mahāprabhu." So when he was feeling like that, Caitanya Mahāprabhu encouraged him,

kibā vipra kibā śūdra nyāsī kene naya yei kṛṣṅa-tattva-vettā sei guru haya [Cc Madhya 8.128]

[Whether one is a brāhmaṅa, a sannyāsī or a śūdra—regardless of what he is—he can become a spiritual master if he knows the science of Kṛṣṅa.]

"You become a sannyāsī or you become a gṛhastha or you are a brāhmaṅa or a śūdra, the Kṛṣṅa consciousness has nothing to do with these material things. If you know actually what is Kṛṣṅa, then you can become guru." Another place also, Kṛṣṅa, er, Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said that,

yei bhaje sei baḍa abhakta hīna chāra kṛṣṅa-bhajane te nāhi jāti-kulādi-vicāra [Cc Antya 4.67]

"Anyone who is a devotee, he is great. And who is not devotee, he may declare himself as great, but he is the most fallen." In the devotional service there is no such distinction as jāti and kula. So if you follow—the example is there in your country, Rāmānanda Rāya—then wherever you are, you are exalted. Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, he has also said—he is ācārya—gṛhe vā vanete thāke hā gaurāṅga bale ḍāke narottama māge tāra saṅga: "It doesn't matter whether he is a gṛhastha or he's a sannyāsī." Vanete means vānaprastha, sannyāsī. "Wherever he may be, if he's actually a perfect devotee of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, I want his association. Never mind." Gṛhe vā vanete thāke hā gaurāṅga bale ḍāke narottama māge tāra saṅga.

So Kṛṣṅa bhajana is so magnanimous, so exalted, in any position you can become the greatest guru, provided you follow the footsteps of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. [break] ...says how one can become perfect. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg 18.65].

[Always think of Me and become My devotee. Worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend.]

Four things. Simply think of Kṛṣṅa, this chanting of Hare Kṛṣṅa mantra—Hare Kṛṣṅa, Hare Kṛṣṅa, Kṛṣṅa Kṛṣṅa, Hare Hare / Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare... So you remain gṛhastha. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has said, nāmāśraya kari thākaha āpana kāje: "In whatever occupation you are, remain there. There is no need of changing." But nāmāśraya kari. If you remain a gṛhastha, what is your loss if you chant Hare Kṛṣṅa mahā-mantra? And if there is gain, why don't you take it? Simple thing. And Kṛṣṅa also says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru, mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayaḥ [Bg 18.68]. These four things will get you back to home, back to Godhead. What is that? Simply think of Kṛṣṅa. But if from the very beginning you want to understand the meaning of Kṛṣṅa—"Kṛṣṅa is nirākāra. He has no hand, He has no leg"—then how you'll think of Kṛṣṅa? You have to give up all this nonsense idea. Then wherever you live, you will be perfect by Kṛṣṅa consciousness. [break] ...Kali-yuga the special advantage is that people cannot become very much advanced in spiritual life, but for Kali-yuga there is a special concession. Kalau nāsty nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma iva kevalam [Cc Ādi 17.21].

[In this Age of Kali there is no other means, no other means, no other means for self-realization than chanting the holy name, chanting the holy name, chanting the holy name of Lord Hari.]

And Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam also, it is confirmed, kīrtanād eva kṛṣṅasya mukta-saṅga paraṁ vrajet [SB 12.3.51].

[My dear King, although Kali-yuga is an ocean of faults, there is still one good quality about this age: Simply by chanting the Hare Kṛṣṅa mahā-mantra, one can become free from material bondage and be promoted to the transcendental kingdom.]

So you remain gṛhastha. It is now difficult to give up gṛhastha life. But don't be merged into this black hole. Don't make black hole tragedy. Be alive, take to Kṛṣṅa consciousness and you'll be happy. So there is no distinction in kṛṣṅa-bhajana whether one is a gṛhastha or a sannyāsī. He must take the science. Then he will be all right.

Indian man (2): ...without taking dīkṣā from the guru also utters the name of Lord Kṛṣṅa with devotion and...

Prabhupāda: There is no devotion unless you go to a guru. Forget it. Ādau gurvāśrayam. First thing is, first business, is to accept a bona fide guru. Otherwise there is no devotion; it is simply false imitation.

Indian man (2): These four things, this, er...

Prabhupāda: This is the injunction of Rūpa Gosvāmī in Bhakti-rasāmṛta sindhu. Ādau gurvāśrayam: "Your first business is to approach bona fide guru and take his āśraya." Otherwise there is no devotion. That has been the defect in the modern society. They imagine. This business should be given up. He must follow. Sādhu-mārgānugāmanam, which is prescribed by the sādhu, guru, you have to accept that. You cannot manufacture your own way.

Indian man (2): The world is so vast, and people who are living in this world and also wishing to attain God or just remember God, the preach..., or say about the God... Also the namaskāraṁ is, Gurudeva said, that, mentioned in the Gītā, that all these are fruitless, the soul which is remembering God either in the form of Kṛṣṅa, but he has not met a guru. Because to get a real guru is a real occasion. It doesn't happen in the case of everyone. One in million get a chance to get a real spiritual guide. There are so many in the name of spiritual guide. And he will false pray, because his inner soul hankers and inner soul thinks that "This is my guru, and somehow I will accept whatever he says." And the ultimate aim and objective is to love God or to recite His name or surrender to Him.

Prabhupāda: This question has been answered by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu while He was teaching Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī.

ei rūpe brahmāṅḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva guru-kṛṣṅa-kṛpayā pāya bhakti-latā-bīja [Cc Madhya 19.151]

[According to their karma, all living entities are wandering throughout the entire universe. Some of them are being elevated to the upper planetary systems, and some are going down into the lower planetary systems. Out of many millions of wandering living entities, one who is very fortunate gets an opportunity to associate with a bona fide spiritual master by the grace of Kṛṣṅa. By the mercy of both Kṛṣṅa and the spiritual master, such a person receives the seed of the creeper of devotional service.]

The guru word is there: guru-kṛṣṅa. If you are actually hankering after Kṛṣṅa—that Kṛṣṅa is within yourself—He will give you a guru. He will give you a guru. Guru-kṛṣṅa-kṛpāya. But we must be fortunate to get real guru. If I am unfortunate, I'll not get a guru. Otherwise why Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, guru-kṛṣṅa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja [Cc Madhya 19.151], mālī hañā se bīja kariya āropaṅa? In this way you'll find in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta. So even Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He accepted guru, Īśvara Purī. He is Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṅa Himself. As Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya said that,

vairāgya-vidyā-nija-bhakti-yoga- śikṣārtham ekaḥ puruṣaḥ purāṅaḥ śrī-kṛṣṅa-caitanya śarīra dhārī... [Cc Madhya 6.254]

He's the puruṣa purāṅa, Kṛṣṅa, but now He has appeared as Kṛṣṅa Caitanya. So He also accepted guru, what to speak of our... Kṛṣṅa also accepted guru. So how you will get the ultimate goal of life without accepting guru? Why do you manufacture this idea? There is no need of manufacturing things. You have to follow. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc Madhya 17.186].

[Dry arguments are inconclusive. A great personality whose opinion does not differ from others is not considered a great sage. Simply by studying the Vedas, which are variegated, one cannot come to the right path by which religious principles are understood. The solid truth of religious principles is hidden in the heart of an unadulterated self-realized person. Consequently, as the śāstras confirm, one should accept whatever progressive path the mahājanas advocate.]

If you manufacture, then you'll be cheated. Don't do this. That has become a fashion, that you manufacture your own way of service. That is not possible. Therefore Rūpa Gosvāmī stresses, ādau-gurvāśrayam: "The first business is that you must find out a bona fide guru." Then other things.

Indian man (3): Gurudeva said the only aim of human being is to surrender to Śrī Kṛṣṅa, to the lotus feet of Śrī Kṛṣṅa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (3): In India especially, there are so many temples and gods and goddesses...

Prabhupāda: That has been described in the Bhagavad-gītā. Those who are hṛta-jñānāḥ, less intelligent, all these gods and goddess are for them. Hṛta-jñānāḥ. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajante anya devatāḥ [Bg 7.20]: "Those who are after other demigods, they are hṛta-jñānāḥ." Hṛta-jñānāḥ means they have got little knowledge—that is taken away by māyā. Māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. These words are there. So this demigod worship is for the less intelligent class of men, not the actual intellectuals. Actual intellectual is he—bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg 7.19].

[After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.]

So he's actual intelligent when he surrenders to Kṛṣṅa. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ. So the demigod worship is recommended for the less intelligent class of men. Otherwise, to surrender to Kṛṣṅa is the highest stage of perfection.

Indian man (4): Sir, what is the difference between renunciation and surrender?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Renunciation is the beginning of this material world. You cannot take..., you cannot surrender to Kṛṣṅa unless you renounce this ma.... If you have got material necessities... Sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg 18.66]. Kṛṣṅa says, "Absolute surrender." And if you want material necessities, then you have got so many dharmas—this dharma, that dharma, social dharma, family dharma, national dharma, community dharma and so on, so on. But Kṛṣṅa demands, sarva-dharmān parityajya. So it is not very easy thing. Therefore renunciation and surrender. Surrender means full renunciation, no reservation. And renunciation means you renounce something and keep something. That is difference.

Indian man (4): Supposing any person, he renounces everything, his material property, and if he just came to Kṛṣṅa consciousness, can he live?

Prabhupāda: We are living. You can see practically. We have got more than one hundred centers, and we are maintaining at least ten thousand men, just like these Europeans. And you have seen our opulence. We are advertised as fabulously rich. [devotees chuckle] You can see here also. We have got at least four cars here. Who has got four cars? Don't you see how we are living?

Indian man (4): Sir, what I meant... Supposing...

Prabhupāda: No. Your question is that... We are living very opulently because we are surrendered to Kṛṣṅa. That is point. So if you come to us, you will also live very opulently. Surrender. [laughter] Do that by practical seeing. We have no anxiety. Do you know what is our expenditure? In New York we are spending twelve lakhs of rupees per month—only in New York. Similarly, in Los Angeles we have got huge expenditure. And our income is also, daily, five lakhs. You can see. Take our account, audit. People do not touch, as soon as one hears, "Oh, it is a religious group." And we are selling religious books, this Bhāgavata and Śrīmad Bhagavad-gītā, six lakhs of rupees daily. Can you imagine?

Indian man (5): Where is this consciousness of surrender will come in human life? At what stage it can come?

Prabhupāda: At any moment. You must be prepared. Kṛṣṅa said, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṅaṁ vraja [Bg 18.66]. So if you have got intelligence, you can do it immediately. Where is the difficulty? But you'll not do it. They have done it, these young boys. They have no other business. And Kṛṣṅa assures, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ. Don't hesitate. But you are hesitating, so there is no surrender. So all right, you remain under the clutches of māyā and suffer. Daivī hy eṣā guṅamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg 7.14].

[This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it.]

Māyā is very strong. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti. As soon as you surrender to Kṛṣṅa, immediately you are mukta. Immediately, instantly. It is in your hand. You follow Kṛṣṅa's instruction, do the needful, you are mukta. Chant Hare Kṛṣṅa.

Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda! [end]