Room Conversation

Pradyumna: All the basic questions are asked, "What is life? What is this?" So many things.

Prabhupāda: "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." This is the... The world is full of rascals and fools. So if you speak something sanity, they will take "insanity." That is the difficulty. Two things are there: one spirit, one matter. They ignore spirit completely. Although they cannot understand, cannot replace. Just like the body. The body is smashed, but what was the element keeping the body? This simple thing they cannot understand. There are two things: matter and spirit. Unfortunate. When we speak of spirit, they take it as brainwash. So fool.

[aside:] So you can take it so long I am resting. [japa]

[break] [loud kīrtana in background] ...correctly. Then the dīkṣā-guru. If you like [indistinct—microphone moving]. Then he is dīkṣā-guru. So śikṣā-guru becomes dīkṣā-guru. But guru means one who knows the science of Kṛṣṅa and teaches properly. That's all.

Guest (1): Are you knowing people take dīkṣā from many gurus?

Prabhupāda: No, dīkṣā-guru is one.

Guest (1): One.

Prabhupāda: But śikṣā-guru can be many.

Guest (1): But suppose dīkṣā-gurus or people take one mantra from one guru and other one...

Prabhupāda: Then you have not selected guru; you have selected some rascal. Guru can be different..., cannot be different. Guru means one who knows the science of Kṛṣṅa. Yei kṛṣṅa-tattva-vettā sei guru haya [Cc Madhya 8.128].

Anyone who knows the science... So suppose if you want to become medical man, you must go to a qualified medical man to learn. And if you go to a pān-wālā, what he'll teach you? That is your mistake. Guru cannot be different. Guru is one, one who knows the science of Kṛṣṅa. If he does not know, then he is not guru. Why should you go there?

Guest (1): How should we know that he knows about Kṛṣṅa?

Prabhupāda: That requires your fortune. Little intelligence. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, ei rūpe brahmāṅḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva [Cc Madhya 19.151].

[According to their karma, all living entities are wandering throughout the entire universe. Some of them are being elevated to the upper planetary systems, and some are going down into the lower planetary systems. Out of many millions of wandering living entities, one who is very fortunate gets an opportunity to associate with a bona fide spiritual master by the grace of Kṛṣṅa. By the mercy of both Kṛṣṅa and the spiritual master, such a person receives the seed of the creeper of devotional service.]

That intelligence is for the most fortunate person. That is not ordinary thing. But guru means who knows the science of Kṛṣṅa. If you go to a bogus man, that is your misfortune. So this is the description of guru: yei kṛṣṅa-tattva-vettā sei guru haya, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's statement.

kibā vipra kibā śūdra nyāsī kene naya yei kṛṣṅa-tattva-vettā sei guru haya [Cc Madhya 8.128]

[Whether one is a brāhmaṅa, a sannyāsī or a śūdra—regardless of what he is—he can become a spiritual master if he knows the science of Kṛṣṅa.]

It doesn't matter whether he is a sannyāsī or gṛhastha or a brāhmaṅa or śūdra. It doesn't matter. If he knows the science of Kṛṣṅa, then he remains guru.

Guest (1): Science of Kṛṣṅa. If he knows about Bhāgavatam, Bhagavad-gītā or anything else.

Prabhupāda: To know about Kṛṣṅa. It is not also difficult. Science of Kṛṣṅa is there, Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṅa speaks Himself. So to know the science of Kṛṣṅa is also not difficult. But because we are unfortunate, we go to rascal, and they interpret Bhagavad-gītā in a rascaldom way, and you are missing. So you should be very careful not to go to a rascal. Then your mission will be successful. If you want to purchase gold, you must go to a shop where actually gold is purchased, gold. If you do not know, then you'll be cheated. That is not also very difficult. That I have repeatedly said. Those who are interpreting in their own way Bhagavad-gītā, he's a rascal; he's not guru. As soon as he says an interpretation, "I think like this," you reject that. Why should we think like that? You should preach what Kṛṣṅa says. Then you are right. Why should you say something which Kṛṣṅa does not say? Then you are misguided. He does not know Kṛṣṅa. He's not kṛṣṅa-tattva-vettā. So he's cheating. That is going on. Kṛṣṅa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṅaṁ vraja [Bg 18.66], and these rascals say, "It is not to Kṛṣṅa person." So he's a rascal. He's taking Kṛṣṅa's book and preaching against Kṛṣṅa. So what will be benefit if you go to such a rascal? Therefore there is no difference between śikṣā-guru and dīkṣā-guru, because if he's actually guru, he'll not say anything which Kṛṣṅa has not spoken. Yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṅa'-upadeśa. So guru is that. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa [Cc Madhya 7.128]:

[Instruct everyone to follow the orders of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṅa as they are given in the Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. In this way become a spiritual master and try to liberate everyone in this land.]

"You become a guru." And what is the function of the guru? Yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṅa'-upadeśa. That is there. You haven't got to manufacture any instruction. Whatever is said in the Bhagavad-gītā, you say. You try to convince him with logic, with philosophy, with your knowledge, same thing, not philosophy. That is intelligence. And suppose Kṛṣṅa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṅaṁ vraja [Bg 18.66]. Before that, Kṛṣṅa has described everything, why you should surrender to Kṛṣṅa. At last He says, "Surrender." So there is no difficulty. Immediately Kṛṣṅa does not say, "You surrender to Me." But after describing everything—karma-yoga, jñāna-yoga, dhyāna-yoga, so many things, politics, sociology, religion, everything—at last He says that "This is the most confidential part. You surrender unto Me."

So one who has not surrendered to Kṛṣṅa, how he can become guru? He's a cheater. Yei kṛṣṅa-tattva-vettā sei guru haya [Cc Madhya 8.128].

[Whether one is a brāhmaṅa, a sannyāsī or a śūdra—regardless of what he is—he can become a spiritual master if he knows the science of Kṛṣṅa.]

Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg 7.19].

[After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.]

One who has surrendered to Kṛṣṅa, he's actually jñānavān. And this jñānavān is possible after many, many births. Not so easily, to surrender to Kṛṣṅa. But if he's there, such a person—vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ—he is mahātmā. That is mahātmā, not by stamping, anyone, a person can become mahātmā. This is the symptom of mahātmā: one who has surrendered to Kṛṣṅa fully. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. So that is guru, mahātmā, who knows vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti. Such mahātmā is guru. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ, bhajanty ananya-manasaḥ [Bg 9.13].

[O son of Pṛthā, those who are not deluded, the great souls, are under the protection of the divine nature. They are fully engaged in devotional service because they know Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, original and inexhaustible.]

The guru has no other business than kṛṣṅa-bhajana. So that you have to see. You have to learn. You have to associate with persons who are actually engaged in kṛṣṅa-bhajana. Then you'll understand. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgaḥ [Cc Madhya 23.14].

[In the beginning there must be faith. Then one becomes interested in associating with pure devotees. Thereafter one is initiated by the spiritual master and executes the regulative principles under his orders. Thus one is freed from all unwanted habits and becomes firmly fixed in devotional service. Thereafter, one develops taste and attachment. This is the way of sādhana-bhakti, the execution of devotional service according to the regulative principles. Gradually emotions intensify, and finally there is an awakening of love. This is the gradual development of love of Godhead for the devotee interested in Kṛṣṅa consciousness.]

Sādhu means bhajate mām ananya-bhāk sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ [Bg 9.30].

[Even if one commits the most abominable actions, if he is engaged in devotional service, he is to be considered saintly because he is properly situated.]

He's sādhu. Who? Who has no other business than Kṛṣṅa. Mix with such sādhu who are actually executing kṛṣṅa-bhajana. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgaḥ. This is the description of the sādhu. Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ. These things are there. There is no question of being misled. But if you purposefully mislead yourself, who can check? In the beginning you may commit some mistake, but when you study Bhagavad-gītā—who is sādhu, who is mahātmā, who is guru—then why shall we make, commit mistake again? If you have done mistake—you have gone to a rascal who is not Kṛṣṅa conscious—then when you read Bhagavad-gītā, you can understand. Why you are misled? Why you should be misled? If it is written on the road, "Keep to the left," why should you be misled and go to the right? Go to the left; then you are not misled.

So here it is said, mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ [Bg 9.13].

[O son of Pṛthā, those who are not deluded, the great souls, are under the protection of the divine nature. They are fully engaged in devotional service because they know Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, original and inexhaustible.]

A mahātmā means who is always engaged in Kṛṣṅa consciousness. Why do you accept somebody as mahātmā who does not speak about Kṛṣṅa? Then you are misleading yourself. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg 7.19]. Everything, direction, is there. Why you create your own mahātmā? If you want to be cheated, who can check you? It is your fault. In Bhagavad-gītā it is clearly said,

bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā... [Bg 7.19]

[After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.]

Sa mahātmā. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ, bhajanty ananya-manasaḥ [Bg 9.13]. Sādhur... Api cet sudurācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk [Bg 9.30].

[Even if one commits the most abominable actions, if he is engaged in devotional service, he is to be considered saintly because he is properly situated.]

He's mahātmā. He's sādhu. We shall go to him. Why shall we go to a rascal? Simple directions. So if you are misled, if you are cheated, whose fault it is? But if you want to be cheated, who can check? Even though somebody by mistake has gone to a rascal, the book is there. As soon as you find out, "Here is a rascal who does not know anything about Kṛṣṅa, and I have come to him," reject him. That is stated in the śāstra. Gurur apy avaliptasya kāryākāryam ajānantaḥ parityāgo vidhīyate [Mahābhārata 12.57.7].

[A person who is wallowing in carnal pleasures and material comforts, who is confused about the human goal of life and is devoid of bhakti, and who poses as a guru, such a depraved charlatan must be rejected.]

Even by mistake you have come to a rascal who does not know how to become guru, you can reject him. Why should you stick to him? Reject him. And by mistake I have come to rascal. Why shall I continue to accept him as guru? Cāṅakya Paṅḍita said, tyaja durjana-saṁsargaṁ bhaja sādhu-samāgamam: "Give up all rascals. Associate with sādhus." If you do not do that, that is your fault. Tyaja durjana-saṁsargaṁ bhaja sādhu-samāgamam. We have to mix with sādhu. Sādhu means who are twenty-four-hours engaged in Kṛṣṅa's service. Things are there. Why should you mix with asādhu? Then how can you understand? Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgaḥ [Cc Madhya 23.14]. If you have got little faith, then next business is to associate with sādhus.

Guest (2): Daily how many times you'll utter the names of Lord Kṛṣṅa?

Prabhupāda: Twenty-four hours. Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ [Cc Ādi 17.31].

[One who thinks himself lower than the grass, who is more tolerant than a tree, and who does not expect personal honor yet is always prepared to give all respect to others can very easily always chant the holy name of the Lord.]

There is no question of "How many times?" But if you have got other business, make some minimum quantity.

Guest (2): Minimum?

Prabhupāda: Quantity. Minimum number.

Satsvarūpa: If you can't chant all day—you have other business—at least make a quota and chant that every day. In our... Prabhupāda's disciples, we promise to chant at least sixteen rounds on the beads, japa-mālā, every day. One round is 108 mantras.

Guest (2): Sixteen rounds.

Satsvarūpa: Yes. Sixteen of those rounds, at least.

Prabhupāda: It comes to twenty-five thousand. So Haridāsa Ṭhākura was chanting three lakhs. That is not possible. Twenty-five thousand minimum. Now you can increase as much as you like.

Guest (3): Is there a difference between Rāma and Kṛṣṅa?

Prabhupāda: No difference. Rāma is Bhagavān. Kṛṣṅa is Bhagavān. Rāmādi-mūrtiṣu. Bhagavān has got many incarnations: Nṛsiṁhadeva, Varāhadeva, Rāma, Rāma, Paraśurāma, Balarāma, Dāśarathi Rāma. So whomever you like, you can worship. [long pause]

Guest (4): Should you count every day how much you do japa?

Satsvarūpa: Should you count every day how much japa you do?

Prabhupāda: That is... He's doing at least sixteen times.

Guest (4): No, suppose if we don't count?

Prabhupāda: No, the mālā is counting.

Guest (4): No. Suppose if we don't follow it, it's not beneficial?

Prabhupāda: Beneficial, but you must fill up your promise, vow, that "I shall chant."

Guest (4): So I just go on chanting.

Prabhupāda: Dṛḍha-vrata. First be dṛḍha-vrata. If your chanting is not finished, you should give up your sleeping. You must try to finish. That is called dṛḍha-vrata. So whatever promise, quota—"I must finish it." Stop all other business. That is called dṛḍha-vrata. Bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ.

[aside:] Find out this verse, mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha [Bg 9.13].

[O son of Pṛthā, those who are not deluded, the great souls, are under the protection of the divine nature. They are fully engaged in devotional service because they know Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, original and inexhaustible.]

No, then satataṁ kīrtayanto mām [Bg 9.14].

[Always chanting My glories, endeavoring with great determination, bowing down before Me, these great souls perpetually worship Me with devotion.]

Satsvarūpa: Not mahātmānas? Next one. Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ.

Prabhupāda: Dṛḍha-vrata. If you have no dṛḍha-vrata, [laughing] that is no vow. So that dṛḍha-vrata means you must promise that "I shall chant at least, minimum, so many times." That is called dṛḍha-vrata.

Satsvarūpa: "With determination."

Prabhupāda: With determination. Otherwise, satataṁ kīrtayanto mām [Bg 9.14]. Satatam means twenty-four hours. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ [Cc Ādi 17.31].

[One who thinks himself lower than the grass, who is more tolerant than a tree, and who does not expect personal honor yet is always prepared to give all respect to others can very easily always chant the holy name of the Lord.]

Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam [Cc Ādi 17.21].

[In this Age of Kali there is no other means, no other means, no other means for self-realization than chanting the holy name, chanting the holy name, chanting the holy name of Lord Hari.]

But that we cannot do. Therefore to keep dṛḍha-vrata, we have fixed up a certain quantity. Chant that. Saṅkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ kālāvasānī-kṛtau.

[I offer my respectful obeisances unto the six Gosvāmīs, namely Śrī Rūpa Gosvāmī, Śrī Sanātana Gosvāmī, Śrī Raghunātha Bhaṭṭa Gosvāmī, Śrī Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī, Śrī Jīva Gosvāmī, and Śrī Gopāla Bhaṭṭa Gosvāmī, who were engaged in chanting the holy names of the Lord and bowing down in a scheduled measurement. In this way they utilized their valuable lives and in executing these devotional activities they conquered over eating and sleeping and were always meek and humble enchanted by remembering the transcendental qualities of the Lord.]

About the Gosvāmīs—saṅkhyā-pūrvaka: "So many times." Not only chanting, also offering obeisances. Saṅkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ. Nati means praṅati. "I shall offer obeisances hundred times." Gosvāmīs, they used to do that. Still in Rādhā-kuṅḍa, Vṛndāvana, you'll see many devotees, they offer, counting, flat, so many times. So we have to take some labor. It is not so easy thing that you realize God [chuckling] so easily. Saṅkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ kālāvasānī-kṛtau. This valuable time of human life should be utilized only for cultivating Kṛṣṅa consciousness. That is perfect. No other business. Sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg 18.66]. That is sarva-dharmān. But if you cannot do that, all right, make minimum: "So many times I shall chant. So many times I shall offer obeisances." Make some dṛḍha-vrata. Then gradually it will be successful.

Guest (5): [Bengali, about japa twenty-four hours]

Prabhupāda: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṅa, Hare Kṛṣṅa, Kṛṣṅa Kṛṣṅa—twenty-four hours. Hmm? Japa-tapa. Tapasya. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattvam [SB 5.5.1].

[Lord Ṛṣabhadeva told His sons: My dear boys, of all the living entities who have accepted material bodies in this world, one who has been awarded this human form should not work hard day and night simply for sense gratification, which is available even for dogs and hogs that eat stool. One should engage in penance and austerity to attain the divine position of devotional service. By such activity, one's heart is purified, and when one attains this position, he attains eternal, blissful life, which is transcendental to material happiness and which continues forever.]

Japa means tapa, tapasya. And that is dṛḍha-vrata. Tapasā brahmacaryeṅa [SB 6.1.13].

[To concentrate the mind, one must observe a life of celibacy and not fall down. One must undergo the austerity of voluntarily giving up sense enjoyment. One must then control the mind and senses, give charity, be truthful, clean and nonviolent, follow the regulative principles and regularly chant the holy name of the Lord. Thus a sober and faithful person who knows the religious principles is temporarily purified of all sins performed with his body, words and mind. These sins are like the dried leaves of creepers beneath a bamboo tree, which may be burned by fire although their roots remain to grow again at the first opportunity.]

Tapasya begins with brahmacarya. There is no tapasya, there is no brahmacarya, there is no dṛḍha-vrata, there is no understanding, and they are being guru. Just see these Europeans, Americans. Their life beginning was meat-eating. And they have given up everything. This is tapasya. And "We shall eat everything, do everything..." Yato mata tato patha. "Whatever I like, I do, and still I am a devotee." What is this nonsense? Jaya.

Guest (6): Viśvāsa, faith, strong.

Prabhupāda: No, where is faith if we do not execute tapasya? Where is faith? Viśvāsa sudṛḍha niścaya [Cc Madhya 22.62]. That is viśvāsa, the same thing. This is viśvāsa: "Kṛṣṅa said this; I shall do." This is viśvāsa. And if you do not do anything what Kṛṣṅa says, where is viśvāsa? There is no viśvāsa. Kṛṣṅa says, satataṁ kīrtayanto mām [Bg 9.14]:

[Always chanting My glories, endeavoring with great determination, bowing down before Me, these great souls perpetually worship Me with devotion.]

"Anyone who is chanting Me, Hare Kṛṣṅa..." So Kṛṣṅa says; I must do it. That is viśvāsa. If you do not do that, where is viśvāsa? What do you mean by viśvāsa? Viśvāsa means sudṛḍha niścaya. "Yes, Kṛṣṅa has said. I shall do." That is viśvāsa. If you have no faith in the words of Kṛṣṅa, where is your viśvāsa? What do you mean by viśvāsa? Hmm?

Guest (6): Bhagavān's servant.

Prabhupāda: Bhagavān is your servant. Whatever you like, you can do, and He'll serve you. You'll not serve Him. He will serve you. Is that viśvāsa? "Whatever nonsense I do, Kṛṣṅa will support." Is that viśvāsa? Viśvāsa means "What Kṛṣṅa says, I shall do." That is viśvāsa. That has been impressed at the modern age, that "Whatever I do, Kṛṣṅa will accept it." Is it not? Do you mean viśvāsa means this, that "Whatever nonsense you do, Kṛṣṅa will accept"? Do you mean viśvāsa means this? Then what is viśvāsa? Explain. "Whatever Kṛṣṅa says, I will do," that is viśvāsa, or "Whatever nonsense I do, Kṛṣṅa will favor"? Which one viśvāsa? What do you mean? Huh?

Guest (6): There is one pervading Supreme Soul.

Prabhupāda: What is that pervading? What do you mean by that? Plain explain. What do you mean by viśvāsa? Explain.

Guest (6): Faith in God.

Prabhupāda: Faith in God. Then hear what God says. That is I am speaking, that "What Kṛṣṅa says, you do it." That is viśvāsa. And if you do otherwise, where is viśvāsa? Hmm? Viśvāsa means... I say, "Mr. such and such, do this." If you have faith in me, you will do this. That is viśvāsa. And if you do otherwise, where is your viśvāsa? You have no faith in me. Now people have degraded so much that they think, "This is viśvāsa. Anything I accept as God is God." Is it not? This viśvāsa is going on. "Any nonsen..."

[break] ...pravartate, iti matvā bhajante māṁ budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ [Bg 10.8].

[I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who know this perfectly engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts.]

So if you take this, that Kṛṣṅa is the beginning of everything—iti matvā—by understanding this, if anyone engages himself in kṛṣṅa-bhakti, bhajante mām, that is bhakti. Budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ. He has come immediately to the bhāva stage. Means he's budhāḥ. He is actually. He has actually understood the thing. So that is viśvāsa. In Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is said viśvāsa..., śraddhā-śabde viśvāsa kahe sudṛḍha niścaya, kṛṣṅe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya [Cc Madhya 22.62]. Kṛṣṅe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya. This is viśvāsa. Kṛṣṅa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṅaṁ vraja [Bg 18.66]. I am thinking, "I have got so many other things. Simply why shall I surrender?" That is not viśvāsa. Viśvāsa means "Kṛṣṅa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṅaṁ. I'll accept." Kṛṣṅe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta. That is viśvāsa. Sudṛḍha niścaya. Śraddhā-śabde viśvāsa sudṛḍha niścaya, kṛṣṅe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya. That is viśvāsa. That viśvāsa wanted, not that I manufacture something. It is useless. Moghāśā mogha-karmāṅo mogha-jñānā vicetasaḥ [Bg 9.12].

[Those who are thus bewildered are attracted by demonic and atheistic views. In that deluded condition, their hopes for liberation, their fruitive activities, and their culture of knowledge are all defeated.]

That is hopeless. What Kṛṣṅa says, if you believe firmly, then it is viśvāsa. Dṛḍha-vrata. And execute, determination. Then you get the result. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ [Bg 7.19].

[After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.]

Such mahātmā is very rare. And nowadays mahātmā means one who does not know anything about Kṛṣṅa, speaks all nonsense, he is mahātmā. "Because we stamp somebody mahātmā, therefore he is."

[aside:] Find out this verse: mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim [Bg 9.13].

Satsvarūpa:

mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ bhajanty ananya-manaso jñātvā bhūtādim avyayam [Bg 9.13]

"O son of Pṛthā, those who are not deluded, the great souls, are under the protection of the divine nature. They are fully engaged in devotional service because they know Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, original and inexhaustible."

Prabhupāda: This is mahātmā. Is there any purport?

Satsvarūpa: Yes. "In this verse the description of mahātmā is clearly given. The first sign of the mahātmā is that he is already situated in the divine nature. He is not under the control of material nature. And how is this effected? That is explained in the Seventh Chapter. One who surrenders unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Śrī Kṛṣṅa, at once becomes freed from the control of material nature. That is the qualification."

Prabhupāda: Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti [Bg 7.14].

[This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it.]

Satsvarūpa: "One can become free from the control of material nature as soon as he surrenders his soul to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is the preliminary formula. Being marginal potency, as soon as the living entity is freed from the control of material nature, he is put under the guidance of the spiritual nature. The guidance of the spiritual nature is called daivīṁ prakṛtim, divine nature. So when one is promoted in that way by surrendering to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, one attains to the stage of a great soul, mahātmā. The mahātmā does not divert his attention to anything outside Kṛṣṅa because he knows perfectly well that Kṛṣṅa is the original Supreme Person, the cause of all causes. There is no doubt about it. Such a mahātmā, or great soul, develops through association with other mahātmās, pure devotees. Pure devotees are not even attracted by Kṛṣṅa's other features, such as the four-armed Mahā-Viṣṅu. They are simply attracted by the two-armed form of Kṛṣṅa. Since they are not attracted to other features of Kṛṣṅa, what to speak of the demigods, they are not concerned with any form of a demigod or of a human being. They only meditate upon Kṛṣṅa in Kṛṣṅa consciousness. They are always engaged in the unswerving service of the Lord in Kṛṣṅa consciousness."

Prabhupāda: Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. That is the... What do you think? What is your definition of mahātmā?

Guest (1): Gītā said, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ [Bg 7.19].

[After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.]

Prabhupāda: Yes. Gītā says, but what you say? [long pause] Recently I went to Wardha, Mahatma Gandhi's āśrama. Nobody is there. And they are worshiping Mahatma's lantern, and Mahatma's cādar. Not a single picture of Kṛṣṅa. [chuckles] There is not a single picture of Kṛṣṅa. And here it is said, bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. This is going on.

[pause] So read Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. Learn. Everything is there. Make your life successful. That is our proposal. Come here. We have developed this center in good quarter. Discuss Bhagavad-gītā and try to do what Kṛṣṅa says. Make your life perfect. [Hindi] We are misguided. Misguided... [Hindi] Everything is there in the Bhagavad-gītā: "This is mahātmā; this is God; this is function; this you have to do." Do it. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg 18.65].

[Always think of Me and become My devotee. Worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend.]

Four things anyone can do. A child can do it.

yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gatenāntar-ātmanā śraddhāvān bhajate yo māṁ sa me yuktatamo mataḥ [Bg 6.47]

[And of all yogīs, he who always abides in Me with great faith, worshiping Me in transcendental loving service, is most intimately united with Me in yoga and is the highest of all.]

First-class yogī—one who is thinking of Kṛṣṅa. [Hindi] There is no difficulty. Take Bhagavān prasāda; chant Bhagavān's name; read Bhagavad-gītā; try to understand. Very easy. Hmm? What is the difficulty? Is there any difficulty? Hmm? Do you think is there any difficulty? [Hindi]

Guest (7): [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: [Hindi with guests]

[break] ...asat-saṅga-tyāga ei vaiṣṅava-ācāra [Cc Madhya 22.87]. You must give up the association of bad elements. And who is bad element? Asat eka strī-saṅgī kṛṣṅa abhakta: One bad element is one who is too much attached to women, and the other bad element is who is not devotee of God. Give up their association. Then you will be steady. Mahat-sevāṁ dvāram āhur vimukteḥ [SB 5.5.2]. If you actually associate with mahātmās, so that will open your door of liberation. Mahat-sevāṁ dvāram āhur vimuktes tamo-dvāraṁ yoṣitāṁ saṅgi-saṅgam. Those who are too much materially attached, if you associate with them, then you are going in the darkest region—not liberation, but in the darkness. Adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisram [SB 7.5.30].

[Prahlāda Mahārāja replied: Because of their uncontrolled senses, persons too addicted to materialistic life make progress toward hellish conditions and repeatedly chew that which has already been chewed. Their inclinations toward Kṛṣṅa are never aroused, either by the instructions of others, by their own efforts, or by a combination of both.]

Those who are too much to material enjoyment—they cannot control their senses—they're going in the darkest region. Tamo-dvāram. Tamaso mā jyotir gamaya. This is Vedic instruction, "Don't go to the darkness; go to the light." Hare Kṛṣṅa.

Satsvarūpa: There is prasādam being served now.

Prabhupāda: [Hindi] [end]