Room Conversation

Prabhupāda: Echo mano jano mandanam arpane.[?] Manuṣya-janama pāiyā, rādhā-kṛṣṅa nā bhajiyā. You can very easily do it. And neglect it simply by dog race, four-legged, four-wheel race. They have no knowledge. Anthill. I have given the name. Anthill?

Mahadevia: Anthill.

Prabhupāda: Yes. These big, big buildings, anthill. And these four-wheel cars—dog-race. What is the difference between the anthill and the skyscraper building?

Mahadevia: [Hindi] More modern only.

Prabhupāda: The same thing. They are also living in the holes, and we have made some holes.

Bhavānanda: Even in Africa, we saw some anthills that were as big as skyscrapers.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā?

Bhavānanda: Big, big.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Twenty foot.

Bhavānanda: Twenty-foot anthills.

Indian man (2): Even more than ten foot of the height. More than ten foot.

Prabhupāda: If more men come, then I shall describe all this anthill civilization. "Health." Nonsense, what "health"? He'll be kicked out immediately.

Indian man (2): Even healthy development.

Prabhupāda: No, who is healthy if he's going to die? "I am so healthy that I am going to die tomorrow." This is their health.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Illusion. They don't know. Every one of those questions was about the body.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṅa said, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg 2.20]. That is healthy, when you do not die even the body is destroyed. And that is healthy life. What is this healthy life? The body is finished and everything, everything is... Actually everything is finished. And to keep people in that ignorance—"The body is finished; everything is finished"—that's not the fact. Kṛṣṅa very clearly said, na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācin na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg 2.20]. They do not question even how it is possible. That is the most important question. Some lady asked me, "What is the most important...?"

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: "What is the most important thing in life?"

Prabhupāda: This is the most important question.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: She was a follower of Rajneesh, that girl up there.

Mahadevia: That first girl, European girl, was follower of Rajneesh.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: The one who asked the question, "What is the most important thing in life?"

Prabhupāda: No, if our movement is organizedly pushed on, the Rajneesh position will be over. Rajneesh is already finished. He has no place in Bombay.

Mahadevia: No, he has been driven out of Bombay. He has gone to Poona, because all the hocus-pocus was going on, people were complaining. So on moral ground, he has been shifted to... I mean he had to go to Poona.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Why do they let him stay there?

Mahadevia: Because the people are not opposing. If they opposed him, he shall have to vacate there also.

Prabhupāda: What about Sai Baba?

Mahadevia: He is doing some [Hindi sabhatta?], but... He is doing all this [Hindi] of getting [Hindi] and all gold bangles, and gold rings and all those things, giving it to the people. So people are attracted. Sometimes the biggest families which are blessed by him are also in Karmanis.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: What happened to them?

Mahadevia: They are all fighting.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: One of them died, I remember.

Indian man (1): That... One of them died. But some other people also fought in the families. Company can't pay heavy... They lost control of the company. If saints come and business is ruined, it is not correct. If he's a real saint, he should have guided them properly. All the professor[?] fighting.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Big family.

Mahadevia: They are Jains.

Prabhupāda: Who are these Karmani? They are famous family.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Karmani Chambers.

Indian man: Very big family. Karmani Chambers and Karmani. They are making the electrical towers for transmission. All over India, Asia, they are supplying. Very big contractor.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Big family. Very wealthy. [break] I was just explaining to Bhavānanda why... [break]

Prabhupāda: Suppose I am a very big business magnate. Next life, if I am going to become a dog—according to my karma, the nature's law will act—then what is benefit? One day before, Indira Gandhi was so important. Next day I'll may be[?] nowhere, finished. Nobody knows where is Indira Gandhi. Just twenty-four hours she was most prominent woman, and after twenty-four hours nobody cares to look at her. This nature's law, how you can check? This is going on. Any moment, anything can be changed by the laws of nature. So India's importance is there. They know the law. Therefore so long the body, full of intelligence, human body, is there, they'll utilize it very... That is life, not to be carried away by the waves of nature. This is India's duty. So we want to make our institution at least a place for understanding this knowledge. It doesn't matter only a few persons may understand. That is sufficient. Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārāḥ sahasraśaḥ: "If you keep one moon in the sky, that is sufficient for light. What is the use of millions of stars?" Modern education, they are creating twinkling stars, millions. All useless for light. No light. And our Vedic civilization is: "Create one moon. That's all." That is sufficient. We respect, therefore, ācāryas—Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya—not the so-called voted leaders. We don't care for them. What is their value? Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ [SB 2.3.19]. You say, "Oh, they are being liked, eulogized, by so many hundreds and thousands," but what these hundreds and thousands of people are? Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-khara. They're kept in ignorance like dogs, hogs, camels and asses. This propaganda should go on by the ISKCON movement. Bombay is the nicest place. Invite them. Convince them. We have got answer for everyone, however big scientist, big philosopher, big politician. Bhāgavata has answered everyone. How selected animal's name has been given. This is Bhāgavata. How the comparison is perfect. I have tried to explain why a particular animal has been selected.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: That purport is very clear.

Prabhupāda: So the sum and substance is that I have got the opportunity of human form, everyone, and they should not be kept in the same animal consciousness. This is civilization. They should be raised to the standard of inquiring, athāto brahma jijñāsā. That is civilization. This, civilization? To keep them in darkness? Hmm? Sanātana Gosvāmī went to Caitanya Mahāprabhu. The first question is, ke āmi kene āmāya jāre tāpa-traya [Cc Madhya 20.102]. "Sir, I was prime minister, and I was very much eulogized by the people as paṅḍita." Grāmya-vyavahāre kaha ei paṅḍita tāi satya kare māni. "These village people, they call me paṅḍita, and I also, such a fool, I accept, 'Yes, I am paṅḍita. Yes.' But factually, if I inquire, 'What kind of paṅḍita?' then āpanāra hitāhita kichui nā jāni: 'I am such a learned paṅḍita that I do not know what is the ultimate goal of my life. I am such a paṅḍita.' Therefore I have come to You, Caitanya Mahāprabhu. You say what is my ultimate goal of life." This is approaching guru, not that "I am paṅḍita, I am brāhmaṅa, or minister. Why shall I go to learn? I can teach everyone whatever nonsense I know. Let them..." What is that injunction? That emasculation? That Sanjay Gandhi became?

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Oh, sterilization.

Prabhupāda: Rascal, he's a boy, and he thought by sterilization the country will be delivered. Just see. By force. He thought... He became learned leader in one day, and he thought, "This will be sacrifice now." This is going on. "Because I am Indira Gandhi's son, I am perfect." Nature's law—"Yes, you are perfect. It is all right. But I'll kick out in a moment—finished."

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Perfect rascal.

Prabhupāda: Bās. They do not know. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate [Bg 3.27]. So at least in India these things should be stopped. That is my ambition. India cannot go in that way. We have got so much stock of knowledge. Bhārata-bhūmite haila [Cc Ādi 9.41].

[One who has taken his birth as a human being in the land of India [Bhārata-varṣa] should make his life successful and work for the benefit of all other people.]

That I want. Others rascals may be misled, but in India at least there must be an ideal class. That I want. Why India's name should be defamed, that they are following in the same blind man's way? Therefore I repeatedly said that "I invite you all. Come. Join us. Understand." What is this nonsense? "Health. What will be health?" But where is your health, nonsense? You are going to die next moment. And "WHO"? What is that "WHO"?

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: That Rajneesh.

Prabhupāda: Huh? No, no, that...

Indian man (2): Question last night.

Prabhupāda: United Nation, WHO.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Oh. World Health Organization.

Prabhupāda: World Health Organization. Rascal, who is healthy? Everyone is going to die. "World Health Organization." They are manufacturing. They do not think that "Where is health?" Such foolish things are going on all over the world. So organize something reality and spread, slow but sure.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: We shouldn't be impatient to compromise just to...

Prabhupāda: There is no question of becoming impatient. You have got diamond. No buyer of diamond—that does not mean you have to throw it away.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: And sell something less.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Diamond is diamond. It must be purchased by the suitable customer. Because there is no customer I shall throw it away? So we have got diamond. It is not possible that everyone will purchase it, but there must be diamonds. People must know that "Here is diamond. If I want it, I must pay the proper price." That I want to establish. Why India's culture should be lost in this way, in the wilderness? I am not cheap patriot like Gandhi and... I want to give Indian culture to the whole world. I'm not going to cheat people, taking Bhagavad-gītā and speaking all nonsense. I want to present Bhagavad-gītā as it is. That is my mission. Why shall I cheat you, a gentleman? [Hindi]

Mahadevia: [Hindi] We'll try to follow your message properly.

Prabhupāda: [Hindi] Why India's such big culture should be lost for the matter of these rascal leaders? This should be stopped. As Kṛṣṅa says, cātur-varṅyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṅa-karma [Bg 4.13].

[According to the three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me. And, although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the non-doer, being unchangeable.]

There must be ideal brāhmaṅa, ideal kṣatriya, ideal vaiśya, as Kṛṣṅa says. That is Kṛṣṅa consciousness movement. It is all-inclusive. Economic question? Annād bhavanti bhūtāni [Bg 3.14].

[All living bodies subsist on food grains, which are produced from rain. Rains are produced by performance of yajña [sacrifice], and yajña is born of prescribed duties.]

Grow food. Practical. Just like when I was going to the paṅḍāls, millions of clerks were coming—"Education. Educated." And who is growing food? And they have to be provided in these pigeonholes and depend on ration. Is that civilization? And throngs of people are coming, just like machine, ants. Ants are coming. I saw like that. And go to the village side—all vacant land. Nobody's interested to produce food. Everyone is interested to live within the city, in these pigeonholes, and go to the cinema and go to the brothel, go to the club and learn how to drink, how to become gentleman. Is that civilization? Human life's aim is lost. You do not know why you are going to the office, why you are eating, why you are... Keeping them all pet animal's mentality, doggish mentality. We have explained. University education means doggish mentality. Unless he becomes a dog, there is no food. No, the dog goes...

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Wagging it's tail.

Prabhupāda: "Give me some food." "Hut hut hut!" Then another animal. And as soon as you give some food, oh, so many—"ka-ka-ka-ka-ka-ka-ka." For five hundred posts, 300,000 applications. Did you see that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Coming at Churchgate.

Prabhupāda: No, there was a newspaper publication. For some post there is five hundred posts vacant.

Mahadevia: Oh, yes. For application for a job, five jobs and five thousand people applied.

Prabhupāda: Five thousand. Is that education? Better not to be educated. Those who are not educated, they purchase ten rupees' worth of potato and sit down anywhere, and half... [laughter] Five rupees. Yes.

Mahadevia: All vegetable are...

Prabhupāda: Yes. You take some dāl. Go to house to house, dāl. They have no scarcity. And after spending so much money, living at the cost of fathers, mothers—unemployed. No job. No food. Then plan something: Naxalite, this party, that party. Join some political movement and help Indira Gandhi. They are paid to make propaganda. They are paid. And they earn money by smuggling.

Mahadevia: But that all has vanished now. That plan has failed now completely.

Prabhupāda: Not failed. Another man will come. Because the unemployment is there. Practically, when we were boys, children, we were purchasing mustard oil, eight annas for two-half, two-half only, kilo, first class. In Calcutta, Kanpur mustard oil. So my father would give me eight annas. I shall go to the shop and purchase. Now that quality, even taking it..., he's now selling thirteen rupees per kilo. Will the change of government bring this thirteen rupees to three annas? Then what is the benefit? The same stool, this side or that side. People are not going to get any relief by this change of government. So we are not concerned about thirteen rupees or three annas or... Some way or other, people are getting their things. That's all right. But the real loss is to remain in animal mentality and forget the aim of life. That is the real loss. Kṛṣṅa says plainly,

aśraddhadhānāḥ puruṣā dharmasyāsya parantapa māṁ aprāpya nivartante mṛtyu-saṁsāra [Bg 9.3]

[Those who are not faithful in this devotional service cannot attain Me, O conqueror of enemies. Therefore they return to the path of birth and death in this material world.]

"This Bhagavad-gītā that I am speaking, if one is not interested to hear it or to take it, then result will be he'll not get Me." "So what is loss if I don't get You?" No, mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani: "Then go again to the cycle of birth and death." That's it. That is nature's law. If my next life I become a worm, then it will take millions of years to evolve, again come to the human standard. How I am lost. That they do not know. It is clearly said, mām aprāpya: "By not getting Me." "So what is loss if I don't get Kṛṣṅa?" No, mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani. That you cannot check. You have to die. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg 2.13].

[As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change.]

You have to accept another body. Then you go on. Why this human form of life should be lost in this way? So at least to try to give this knowledge to the people in general is para-upakāra. This is para-upakāra. And that is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's gift. India can especially do it.

bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra janma sārthaka kari' [Cc Ādi 9.41]

[One who has taken his birth as a human being in the land of India [Bhārata-varṣa] should make his life successful and work for the benefit of all other people.]

[Hindi] [break] ...there and some great man, not that they think bad. And if somebody checks me, how great enemy he is.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: The natural tendency of the people here is to be God conscious, but the government is artificially checking. Whether this new government will be any different?

Prabhupāda: No. The same fools, rascals.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: So we have to be very strong in our center here in Bombay.

Prabhupāda: We are for everyone. We are not for any nation, any particular person.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Our preaching has to be so strong, it will counteract the government's preaching, the movies and all these other Kali-yuga things.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. All influences.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: I wanted to know how... Last night were you having any difficulty? Feeling any difficulty?

Prabhupāda: No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Passing... [break]

Prabhupāda: Not this section, this nation, this religion. No, not like that. They are going to die, and they're organizing "health." Just see their intelligence. Butchers' health organization. A butcher is going to kill the animal tomorrow, and today he's seeing that health is..., healthy is animal. This is... So there is a health organization, WHO? World Health Organization?

Gopāla Kṛṣṅa: Yes. WHO. Geneva.

Prabhupāda: A butchers' health organization. Take these ideas all, there. Everything is there, already mentioned. Cultivate. Try to give Kṛṣṅa in every... Let everyone come, stay with us, learn this art, preach all over the world. And Bombay is a city where you'll get all kind of help. Besides that, we shall get help from all over the world. But do it very cautiously, thoroughly. You don't take it as insignificant. Very important. I am talking of this Māyāpur. So this is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. Bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya [Cc Ādi 9.41].

[One who has taken his birth as a human being in the land of India [Bhārata-varṣa] should make his life successful and work for the benefit of all other people.]

Why He's stressing bhārata-bhūmi? Yes. It is a fact. Real knowledge is here, Bhagavad-gītā, speaking Kṛṣṅa Himself. Why such knowledge should be denied? Is that all right?

Pañcadraviḍa: To lose it? No.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Pañcadraviḍa: To lose this knowledge? No, it's not all right.

Prabhupāda: People are in darkness. To keep them like dogs, hogs, camels, and take vote from them and become a leader... Nobody protested that we call all the men dogs, hogs, camels. Nobody came forward, that "You are using very strong words." It's a fact.

Gopāla Kṛṣṅa: They agree.

Hṛdayānanda: They were applauding your lecture last night.

Prabhupāda: Our Tamāla Kṛṣṅa appreciated very much.

Hṛdayānanda: Tamāla Kṛṣṅa?

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: I loved that lecture.

Hṛdayānanda: It was wonderful last night.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: I told Prabhupāda the lecture was like atom bomb.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He told like that. [chuckles]

Hṛdayānanda: Said the atheistic leaders are like animals, stronger animals.

Prabhupāda: Yes, big animal.

Hṛdayānanda: They especially liked your idea of American money and Indian culture.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hṛdayānanda: They applauded for that.

Prabhupāda: That is my mission. I am doing that. I am bringing money from America. Nobody's paying me. It is not joke. Ten lakhs of rupees, who brings?

Gopāla Kṛṣṅa: Even big export companies don't bring so much.

Prabhupāda: And they'll be glad. They have got money and they are getting culture. I am trying for United Nation. That is real attempt of United Nation, not this United Nation—all rogues and thieves and cheaters, barking dogs. I am trying for the United Nation. Help me. This is real United Nation. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām [Bg 18.54].

[And of all yogīs, he who always abides in Me with great faith, worshiping Me in transcendental loving service, is most intimately united with Me in yoga and is the highest of all.]

It is United Nation. So I began this movement very humbly, loitering on the street of New York. Now it has come to this stage. Let us cooperate together nicely.

Hṛdayānanda: Your Bombay project is very impressive. We've just taken a tour.

Prabhupāda: Therefore I persistently took that place. Nobody encouraged me. He is all. [laughter] Nobody helped me. I hesitated little, that "If I am persistent to take it, they will not cooperate. It may be failure." So still I took it. And only fifty thousand and one lakh of rupees I gave this thief Nair: "All right, take it. Come on. Whatever I have got, you take it." Still he thought, "Oh. I'll get money."

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: He had already played the trick with one man.

Prabhupāda: Still, I took the risk, that "I have no money. If he cheats me, that's all right, but let me attempt."

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Then you installed the Deity as soon as possible.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Immediately Akash Ganga left. All Kṛṣṅa's desire.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Everyone is appreciating how wonderful this project is, all of Bombay.

Prabhupāda: So much obstacles, one after another, one after another, one after another.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Kṛṣṅa would not leave.

Prabhupāda: No. That was my request: "Please sit down here tight. Then I shall do everything."

Pañcadraviḍa: Practically Girirāja has not left either.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He was not trembled in any circumstance. That is his qualification. That nasty, hot, mosquitoes. You also lived there. No gentleman can live.

Pañcadraviḍa: I lived there also, Śrīla Prabhupāda. So many rats.

Prabhupāda: Rats, mosquitoes and so much inconvenience. Had no place. Sometimes here, sometimes there, sometimes there.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: You were also so inconvenienced. You had to move. One time you were living in that...

Prabhupāda: But you... For me you make good arrangement wherever I live, that's all. But I know how you were living in that nasty hut, full of dirty things, mosquito, rats, dropping of water. And Nair is attacking, Municipal is attacking.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: You always said that we were so trained that we would even live on the roadside.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That you are trained. [laughs] You don't care for this palace or underneath a tree.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Formerly we were living like that as hippies, and now we live like that to serve you.

Prabhupāda: I was living in Rādhā-Dāmodara temple. It was not a palace. But before that, I was living in a palace. That is Keśī-ghāṭa. But this gosāi called me that "You live here?" And "All right," Svarūpa Dāmodara Gosvāmī's, er, yes, Jīva Gosvāmī's place. "Let me go there." Now organize. Make very good plan that our Bombay temple will be always crowded with thousands of men, and some program must go on.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: You mentioned the other day that five hundred devotees should always be there.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. We have got place.

Pañcadraviḍa: Bombay?

Prabhupāda: We have got place. All right.

Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: So enthusiastic. All young men.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Our enthusiasm is coming from you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. We're simply enthusiastic coming from you.

Prabhupāda: I am old man.

Hṛdayānanda: Oh, Prabhupāda!

Pañcadraviḍa: Nava-yauvana. [end]