Room Conversation with Scientists, Svarūpa Dāmodara and Dr. Sharma

Prabhupāda: Here Jagannātha Svāmī is the same. So it is desired that the Svāmī should be in a very nicer place, that there is no deridation of the Svāmī, the exaltation of the Svāmī. So therefore the rascal does not know what is analogy. Analogy does not mean dissimilar.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Both similaries.

Prabhupāda: That he does not know.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: You are glorifying Jagannātha.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Svāmī is the same. If I speak to my svāmī, husband, "Kindly you come to this better seat," there is no deridation.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: No. You are not putting yourself on that higher seat. You are putting Lord Jagannātha there.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore that analogy is failure.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: I thought you would like to see that brochure from those rascals. I mean, I brought it to your attention because I knew that you were [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: [break] ...the whole world much nicer building, palaces, and...

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Nicer building?

Prabhupāda: Yes, this.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Detroit?

Prabhupāda: London, Bhaktivedanta Manor, they are very nicer buildings. But if you cannot open these doors of the building, oh, immediately collapse...

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: That's true.

Prabhupāda: You have to remain packed up.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Yeah, it spoils it. You can't really enjoy it.

Prabhupāda: Detroit and London. Oh, you cannot open.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Detroit also.

Prabhupāda: Not so much.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Not so much?

Prabhupāda: When I was going there it was very clear.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: You picked a good time of the year. London and Paris at the right time is very good. Say June..., May, June, July. But nine months or eight months of the year, it becomes difficult.

Prabhupāda: In Bombay especially, advantages. The whole side, sea. Therefore it keeps the atmosphere mild. Simply in Bombay. Not in this Bombay Province, Maharashtra.

[break] Up to the end of the day, here is air and light. Up to the end. Good advantage.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Very peaceful, too.

[long pause]

Prabhupāda: You can keep some āsana like this.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Dr. Sharma: [enters and recites Sanskrit ślokas]

Prabhupāda: Let him come this side. Give him the āsana. [Hindi with guest]

[break] If you like, you can make this bed this size, not my size.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

[aside:] There's a way to adjust it.

[discussion as devotees fix something for Śrīla Prabhupāda]

[pause]

Dr. Sharma: [Hindi]

Prabhupāda: Now you combine together and present this Kṛṣṅa consciousness throughout the whole world. [Hindi with Dr. Sharma] You have been acquainted with the other scientists?

Dr. Sharma: Yes, I have met Swami Mādhava dāsa and his colleague, and I've gone through that article recently that they sent me about creation coming out of chaos. It is a very wonderfully written article. They will be a real eye-opener for the scientists really. And I understand that you have a big plan to start a research institute with the help of the scientists. This will be really something that...

Prabhupāda: All Indian scientists should join.

Dr. Sharma: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That I want. To keep people in darkness is not science. They are keeping people in darkness. They do not know how nature is working, how they are subjugated to the laws of nature and trying to be independent.

prakṛteḥ kriyamāṅāni guṅaiḥ karmāṅi sarvaśaḥ ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate [Bg 3.27]

Keeping people in darkness in the name of science, now it should be stopped. That is my humble opinion. So your paṅḍāls...?

Girirāja: It's going on. People are still coming and... Did you see the press reports?

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: We showed one this morning mentioning that the member of parliament had made a statement.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: English.

Dr. Sharma: I wanted going to bring to your kind notice, ever since we become independent, our moral fiber is really breaking down. We are spiritually, I think, the..., the deterioration has been very fast after 1947. Somehow this is...

Prabhupāda: Because is our so-called leaders misled them.

Dr. Sharma: Misled us.

Prabhupāda: Even Gandhi misled. That Vinoba Bhave is misleading, what to speak of others.

Dr. Sharma: Many of the even small temples in villages, their revenue have been taken away after independence. There are many small temples in where I come from, our village in Rajasthan. And when I was a small boy I used to go to the temple because, you know, my grandfather and my father used to go to the.... And there was a very rich life in the villages because, you know, the early morning, we would take a shower, bath, and go to the temples and do our pūjā, and the temple also we'd get some prasādam, and there was some land grants attached to a temple, some cows...

Prabhupāda: Some contribution.

Dr. Sharma: Contribution. And there was a real rich life in Indian village. Now, after independence, that life has been really destroyed. Because the grants have been taken away and here, it's really a pain to see such beautiful temples having no maintenance now. Plus this so-called secular education, you know, godless education they have introduced, that has further harmed, because the temple-going public has also dwindled in number. And it looks like there has been a systematic plan to undermine our...

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, by this Congress. Their opinion is that India, being too much religious, is spoiled.

Dr. Sharma: Yes. Also I just happened to do a survey in South about the veda-paṭhī brāhmaṅas who were having the complete control...

Prabhupāda: The brāhmaṅas, they, from your Rajasthan, the other day I got before. Twenty thousand brāhmaṅas have come here in Bombay to serve as tea-walla.

Dr. Sharma: Tea-walla. Exactly right.

Prabhupāda: So who is caring for the... Because there is no maintenance, there is no education, so how the brāhmaṅas are being maintained?

Dr. Sharma: These, the Rajasthani brāhmaṅas were not that, you know, strong brāhmaṅas as you see in South. In the South the brāhmaṅas are very Vaiṣṅavas, very staunch, and they were veda-paṭhīs. They had the whole aural...

Prabhupāda: No. Veda... Because the brāhmaṅas, they should be veda-paṭhī, at the same time, the public also must know the importance of Vedas. So if you prepare the public that it is useless, then how these brāhmaṅas can be maintained?

Dr. Sharma: Right now the number is dwindling so fast. The number of people who have the...

Prabhupāda: Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. Kali-yuga... [break]

Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...to go to the universities all over and present Kṛṣṅa consciousness in a scientific [indistinct]. Write articles, using medical science to prove that Kṛṣṅa is the ultimate. [indistinct] ...that's the nice thing about our operation. So if new blood comes... And now the new blood is coming, that is...

Dr. Sharma: And there is a lot of scientific data in our ancient scriptures which I told them that if they go through from their point of view they will find lot of things in Purāṅas, in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, in many Vedic scriptures...

Prabhupāda: No, apart from Purāṅas and Vedic literature, scientifically it is the modern science, according to their way, we can convince. Purāṅas, you may not believe the authority; I may not believe. But scientific truth has to be accepted.

Dr. Sharma: Well, actually nobody had looked from this angle as these people have described their angle. And I suggested to them when they have their research institute, they should go dig out every source from the... They will find a lot of material from our past.

Prabhupāda: You have got that stage, so you should invite all scholarly people, every Sunday, Saturday. Hold meeting, challenge them. In this way. Kavibhir nirūpito yad-uttamaśloka-guṅānuvarṅanam.

idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca buddhi-dattayoḥ avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito yad-uttamaśloka-guṅānuvarṅanam [SB 1.5.22]

Avicyutaḥ artha. It is the infallible conclusion that your education should be perfected when you can prove through your educational talents that there is God. Then it is... Avicyutaḥ artha. Avicyutaḥ means there is no fallacy—infallible. So that we have to do. [pause] Any other scientists joined from India?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: India, not yet.

Prabhupāda: What is their opinion? They are afraid of joining?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They will come. Some of them are very favorable.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Many of them are very favorable.

Gopāla Kṛṣṅa: There is one doctor who lives on our land. He wants to work with them in proving that God exists. He did his MBBS from Russia.

Prabhupāda: Russia is also purchasing our books. [japa] If the scientists do not believe in God, what is the reason?

Dr. Sharma: They just want a valid proof.

Prabhupāda: Direct proof. The other day somebody asked me... Perhaps you were present? No. Logically. The logical proof, common sense, anyone who has got common sense, the logical proof is there. Just like everything is growing from the earth. The earth is giving birth. Earth, water, air, fire. Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ [Bg 7.4].

[Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego—altogether these eight comprise My separated material energies.]

Take, for example, water. You dig a pond, and after a few months there will be fishes. So wherefrom the fishes came? If you don't touch even, the fishes will come, and they will grow. So wherefrom the fish came? What is the answer?

Mādhava: The scientists' answer? Well, immediately they would not say evolution, because it takes many billions of years to say evolution.

Prabhupāda: Evolution..., apart from evolution, when I dig a pond, water comes out. You don't touch; after few days, after few months, there will be fishes.

Mādhava: They would say there are eggs in the stream and...

Prabhupāda: Wherefrom the eggs came?

Mādhava: From another fish.

Prabhupāda: Wherefrom the eggs came?

Mādhava: From another fish.

Prabhupāda: Where is another fish? There was no fish when you dug this well. These rascals are great rascals, and they are going on in the name of scientists. Another, another—where is that another? Another means that is God. These rascals, they do not know that. They simply "another." Who is that another? That is God. Simple logic. The child is there, the mother is there; there must be father. This is logic. Otherwise how the living entity came into existence? You talk on this point. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṅi [Padma Purāṅa]. Śāstra says in the beginning, jalajā, living entities born in the water. And they are not one kind. Not that one kind of fish is coming. Nava-lakṣāṅi: nine hundred thousand different types of life, varieties, varieties of life. So how these rascals say that all of a sudden came another? Where is that another? Answer it. What is that another? "Big, big monkey, big, big belly, Ceylon jumping, melancholy." [laughter] What is that another? That "another" is God. It is simple for us. We understand. Why? Because you are Kṛṣṅa conscious. Kṛṣṅa says, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā [Bg 14.4]:

[It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed-giving father.]

"I am. Here I am. I am the seed-giving father." Finished. We take it. So we are in full knowledge. What is the difficulty for us? There is father. You can say another or this or that, whatever way you can say. There is father. You do not know? Here, the father says, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā: "Yes, I am father." We believe in Kṛṣṅa, our knowledge is perfect. You rascal, you do not believe, do not know. Then you hover in the darkness forever and remain a rascal and declare yourself a scientist. Rascal, declaring as scientist.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually, scientific knowledge can be appreciated more when one accepts that Kṛṣṅa is the...

Prabhupāda: Yes. That should be propagated now. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati [Muṅḍaka Upaniṣad 1.1.3].

[If one can understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the controller of all controllers, one can understand everything else.]

If you know simply Kṛṣṅa, then you know everything. Why I am challenging, from the very beginning, all these rascal scientists? Because I believe in Kṛṣṅa. That's all. Otherwise I am not a scientist. I cannot challenge the scientists. But yes, I can challenge. Because I know my knowledge is perfect.

Dr. Sharma: You sound like... You know when at the time of Yudhiṣṭhira Rājasūya yajña, there was Śiśupāla and the other people who objected? And then Sahadeva, who was to do agra-pūjā of Kṛṣṅa, he said,

keśavaṁ keśī-hantāraṁ bhajireda purakramam pūjyamānaṁ mayāyoga kṛṣṅa na sahata vipra sarveṣāṁ balinam modye mayedaṁ niyataṁ padam

keśavaṁ keśī-hantāraṁ bhajireda purakramam pūjyamānaṁ mayāyoga kṛṣṅa na sahata vipra

"You kings who does not tolerate Kṛṣṅa, who is killer of Keśī, and Keśava, if you don't honor, I am putting my foot over your head."

Prabhupāda: That's it. "I kick you on your face with my boot."

Dr. Sharma: So that's what ācārya is saying. "If you don't recognize on the scientists, my foot to you."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Kick the scientists in the face. [laughter]

Prabhupāda: So this should be stopped. These rascals, these fools, they are passing on as scientists and misleading others. That business should be stopped. But they cannot answer wherefrom the fish came. What is the answer?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: You ask him to answer.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Sharma: I think that science should be limited to people who have got Kṛṣṅa consciousness. Would you agree to that? You see in the beginning, when you select people for science, should you make it a prerequisite for admission that they should be Kṛṣṅa conscious? Maybe they will become better scientists. Maybe they will not, you know, make atom bombs and other destructive things if they were Kṛṣṅa conscious.

Prabhupāda: I say to the scientists [indistinct] who as they say, life comes from chemicals. And I say that take some small egg. You can see, there are some substances like yellow substance and white substance. Analyze the chemicals and combine them and put in the incubator. You get one chicken. Why the rascals cannot do it? And still, they say that life comes from chemicals. What is the answer?

Devotee: They say it is too complicated.

Prabhupāda: That means you do not know, and you are passing your remark that life comes from chemicals. Such a rascal you are. You do not know what is the thing, and still, you are declaring your knowledge. You are misleading people. And you are captured, you say, "Yes, wait millions of years. We shall do it by trying." What is this nonsense? All post-dated check. No, these rascals should be stopped. Speaking all lies, propaganda. Let him go to hell, I don't mind. But why they are misleading others? That is the greatest harm they have done. We attack them only for this reason. Otherwise, individually, you go to hell. Who cares for you? But in the name of science and becoming a scientist, you are misleading others. Andhā yathāndhaiḥ. You are blind rascal, and you are leading other blind men. Why you are doing these harmful activities? You are admitting that you are blindly believing. So you are blind. You remain blind if you don't accept knowledge. Why you are trying to lead other blind men? Let them have knowledge. They have got the opportunity, this human form of life. This is the opportunity to get knowledge. And you are keeping them in darkness. Is that service to the humanity?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The real scientists, they must be Kṛṣṅa conscious. Otherwise he cannot be a scientist.

Prabhupāda: No. The real thing he does not know. [break] We know. We know on the basis of śāstra, authorities, ācāryas, so many. And what is your support? Your support is yourself. Then everyone will do that. His support is himself. Everyone will become authority: "I think," "I believe." What is this nonsense, your belief? These things should be stopped now. [Hindi with guest] Misleading, andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ [SB 7.5.31].

[Persons who are strongly entrapped by the consciousness of enjoying material life, and who have therefore accepted as their leader or guru a similar blind man attached to external sense objects, cannot understand that the goal of life is to return home, back to Godhead, and engage in the service of Lord Viṣṅu. As blind men guided by another blind man miss the right path and fall into a ditch, materially attached men led by another materially attached man are bound by the ropes of fruitive labor, which are made of very strong cords, and they continue again and again in materialistic life, suffering the threefold miseries.]

These conditioned souls, very stringently bound up hands and legs by the laws of nature, they are trying to lead the human society. This rascaldom must be stopped. You do not know, say you do not know. That's all. Why you mislead others, giving them false knowledge? You do not know even the distinction between the living entity and the material elements. You are trying to prove the living entity is also combination of these material elements, chemicals. Such a rascal you are. And in the Bhagavad-gītā it is clearly said, apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām, jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho yayedam [Bg 7.5].

[Besides this inferior nature, O mighty-armed Arjuna, there is a superior energy of Mine, which are all living entities who are struggling with material nature and are sustaining the universe.]

It is very important thing. You do not know anything about it. Kṛṣṅa again says, nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ nainaṁ chindanti śastrāṅi. Negative definition. Still, you are so rascal, you do not understand, and you are misleading innocent persons. So combine together as many as possible and go and challenge.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Dr. Sharma can help us a lot in Bombay. Because I find that medical institutions, you know, hospitals, is a very good place to speak to the doctors. Because this life, the concept of life, and these bio-medical ethics is very appropriate. So...

Dr. Sharma: Yes, actually, this concept is very timely for our country, Prabhupāda. My feeling is that our country has a special place in the Lord's heart, because He came here several times. And the very fact that after independence, nobody could prevent it again, and you have come, all these things, to stop it now. And I think the thing should start from...

Prabhupāda: At least, I am the first man to try for it.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes.

Dr. Sharma: And these people, they are very learned in their chosen fields, and they have..., they are Kṛṣṅa conscious, and they are really keen to do it with enthusiasm, to turn the tide back.

Prabhupāda: They have sacrificed their life. They are scientists, they could earn lots of money, but they do not care for it. They have dedicated their life. In America they could earn lots of money, such a qualified person. But they did not care for money. They care for the truth. That is real brāhmaṅa. Brāhmaṅa does not care for money. Knowledge. Satya śamo damas titikṣā ārjavaṁ jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg 18.42].

[Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness—these are the qualities by which the brāhmaṅas work.]

The truth. That is brāhmaṅa.

Dr. Sharma: And they are living like brāhmaṅas in, you know, so... Bhagavān also has taken out time to protect the brāhmaṅa.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Namo brahmaṅya-devāya go-brāhmaṅa...

Dr. Sharma: Go-brāhmaṅa-hitāya ca jagad-dhitāya kṛṣṅāya govindāya...

Prabhupāda: His first business is to give protection to the brāhmaṅas and the cows. Go-brāhmaṅa-hitāya ca. Jagad-dhitāya. Next, welfare of the others. First, Kṛṣṅa says specifically, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya. He gives specific instruction: go-rakṣya, protect cows. [Hindi] Somebody was speaking to me that some great astrologer long ago predicted the Russia will be first-class theist in future. Who was speaking that?

Devotee (1): What?

Gopāla Kṛṣṅa: That the Russia would be first-class theist.

Devotee (1): I don't know.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The atheist, when they are convinced, they become first-class theist. One of my teacher used to say that anyone who is not easily convinced, he does not forget easily also. And one who easily understands, he easily forgets. So the Russians, they are strong. You cannot convince them by bogus dogmatic theories.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's very true. It's true. Scientists, once they are convinced, it is also very difficult to...

Prabhupāda: Yes. He is not easily convinced, then easily he does not forget.

Dr. Sharma: I think we should teach the Russians that we have our own brand of communism or socialism.

Prabhupāda: Yes, I have already explained.

Dr. Sharma: Yāvad... [Sanskrit] The amount of material you need to fill your belly, that is your own. You can call only that much your own. If you think you own something more, you are a thief and you should be punished. That's what Bhāgavata says. This is the highest kind of socialism one can...

Prabhupāda: This is real socialism. God is the supreme father. Everyone has got right to live at the cost of the father's property. But you cannot take more than that. Then you are a thief. Take whatever you... And even by nature you will find. You just immediately throw one bag of rice, so many birds will come. And they will take one or two grain or something... They will go away. And the human being, oh, he will take five shares, he will take ten shares. And within one hour, ten maunds of rice will be finished. The birds and beasts will not do that. Whatever he actually requires, they will take from there. Therefore they are not subjected to the sinful activities. Only human beings are subjected to sinful activities. But he has got developed consciousness and misusing it. There is no sinful activities for animals lower than the human being. There is no sin. Because they are under the laws of nature, the animals. And as soon as one becomes developed conscious human being, if he does not know the śāstra and guided by spiritual master, he will do all nonsense. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma [SB 5.5.4]. Vikarma, all sinful activities. Only for sense gratification. Mad after sense gratification. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma. And what is the purpose of doing so many sinful activities? Yad indriya-prītaya—only for sense gratification. There is no other aim. Ṛṣabhadeva says, "No, no, don't do this." So who is giving protection to these rascals who are educated to act sinfully? That is in Bhāgavata. "No, no." Na sādhu manye. "This is not good." "But why not good? Let me enjoy." "No, you will not enjoy. You will create another body for suffering." Yata ātmano 'yam asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ [SB 5.5.4]. You are already suffering. You have got this body. You are already suffering on account of your past activities. And you are creating again, again another body for suffering. So it is not good. They do not know. [Hindi] Human civilization—para-upakāra. This is the real business. [Hindi] Four-wheeled dogs. That's all. That is advancement. The dog is running with four legs, and he is running with four wheels, "Dag-dag-dag-dag-dag." Where you are going? And this is their scientific advancement—competition with dog. Otherwise what they have done? The anthill, and four-legged wheel. That's all. Four-wheel legs. This is animal civilization. Without knowing the aim of life, living in big, big skyscraper building, "I am king." And running like dog with four wheel car, Mercedes. This is dog civilization. It is not human civilization. Human civilization begins when they take Kṛṣṅa's instructions: cātur-varṅyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṅa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg 4.13].

[According to the three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me. And, although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the non-doer, being unchangeable.]

Divide the whole human society into four divisions and let them cooperatively act for the benefit of God. That is civilization. There civilization begins. Otherwise, what is the difference between dog and the human being? There is no difference. The leaders are teaching, "Feel like Indians." As a dog is feeling, "I am bulldog." This is our leader. [Hindi]

Dr. Sharma: [Sanskrit] This India is considered...

Prabhupāda: Puṅya-bhūmi.

Dr. Sharma: Puṅya-bhūmi, because the people here believe in karma and Lord Kṛṣṅa, and other countries they don't believe in Kṛṣṅa. They are the bhoga-bhūmis. They just believe in enjoying. That is why India is considered better. But now the modern India is not that India. This is from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: [Hindi with Dr. Sharma]

Dr. Sharma: Actually, we never had the geographical concept of the nation. Only concept we had was the religious concept. Wherever Kṛṣṅa is worshiped, that is India. That has been the concept throughout the centuries, until 1947, you know, and then we had these boundaries. Otherwise, Kṛṣṅa is worshiped in north, He is worshiped in south, He is worshiped in east, He is worshiped in west, and there are temples marking that plain. And that's what we call India. And that has been throughout the centuries. Not the geographical boundaries they have given it now to India. Really you can make out the definition of India, where Kṛṣṅa is worshiped, that is India. And that can be anywhere now, including worship in the United States or in Canada. Because He was the man, He was our Lord, He came here. He gave us the religion, He gave us the life, He gave us this... So now these politicians are taking that concept away, and they are changing the consciousness of the whole nation now. They want to change the consciousness. They want to make them materialistic. They want to make them greedy. They want to...

Prabhupāda: And what materialistic advancement they have done?

Dr. Sharma: Nothing.

Prabhupāda: Now in our childhood, when we were ten-years-old boy, my father used to purchase high kilo saraṣera tela, for eight annas. Can these rascals do to that standard? Eight annas, first-class Kanpur mustard oil. Now that oil... Not that quality oil, still, they are being sold thirteen rupees per kilo, instead of three annas.

Dr. Sharma: They were always, even in a small village, there were five or ten good people who could do the kīrtana. You know, they had a knack of one particular instrument, they could get up and all on the Janmāṣṭamī, on so many festivals they used to have kīrtana. And all, you know, small village, even nook and corner of the country, bubbling with life, religious life. This is only twenty-five years ago, even thirty years ago it was there. And look now...

Prabhupāda: [Hindi] It is better late than never. [Hindi] We are sending our men from village to village. Not only here, also in the European countries.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, one of our basic points is that we are not this body but we are actually soul. So I would wonder how Dr. Sharma, he is a specialist in, I think, cardiology...

Dr. Sharma: Cardiac surgery.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: So we say that the soul is in the heart. So how can we convince the other doctors, for example, of the presence of the soul within the body and especially within the heart?

Prabhupāda: They do not know that the soul is there, because they have misunderstood. So when the soul goes away, they think their heart has pain. Material cause. They do not know because the soul has left, the heart is not working. They take it on the other way, that because the heart is not working, therefore he's lying down.

Dr. Sharma: Some of the ancient Indian medical texts, they do describe that heart is the seed of consciousness. [Hindi] The Suśruta Saṁhitā says that the heart is considered the consciousness. But the modern medical texts, they are actually, they...

Prabhupāda: Modern means rascals.Dr. Sharma: Yes. Actually, they are only two hundred years old.

Prabhupāda: Say, rather, modern rascals. [laughter] Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg 18.61].

[The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart, O Arjuna, and is directing the wanderings of all living entities, who are seated as on a machine, made of the material energy.]

Dr. Sharma: Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭaḥ [Bg 15.15].

[I am seated in everyone's heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness. By all the Vedas am I to be known; indeed I am the compiler of Vedānta, and I am the knower of the Vedas.]

And the [Sanskrit] says that the heart is the most important organ because it is concerned with ātmā and...

Prabhupāda: Santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu [Bs 5.38].

[I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who is Śyāmasundara, Kṛṣṅa Himself with inconceivable innumerable attributes, whom the pure devotees see in their heart of hearts with the eye of devotion tinged with the salve of love.]

Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ [SB 12.13.1].

[Sūta Gosvāmī said: Unto that personality whom Brahmā, Varuṅa, Indra, Rudra and the Maruts praise by chanting transcendental hymns and reciting the Vedas with all their corollaries, pada-kramas and Upaniṣads, to whom the chanters of the Sāma Veda always sing, whom the perfected yogīs see within their minds after fixing themselves in trance and becoming fully absorbed in thoughts of Him, and whose limit can never be found by any demigod or demon—unto that Supreme Personality of Godhead I offer my humble obeisances.]

Dr. Sharma: Yasyāntaṁ na viduḥ surāsura-gaṅā devāya tasmai namaḥ.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: What about these..., the artificial hearts that they are making?

Prabhupāda: Artificial heart and this real heart the same thing—it is material. Where is the difference? There is no difference.

Dr. Sharma: Just like they are trying to produce babies in the test-tube. They are never going to be successful. But they can keep on trying, you know. I recently went to Houston, and there I have read that they cannot keep somebody alive even more than five, six hours. So far away from such a thing.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: What about this heart transplant?

Dr. Sharma: Well, the heart transplants actually have been given up everywhere except one place, that's in Stanford Medical Center. And they are doing it because they are the one who initially started it, so they are emotionally stable about it. But actually I have gone and seen there, and they do it... The people are, you know, the recipient patient is very unhappy after the heart transplant. He's very restless, and he has nightmares and he is extremely unhappy.

Gopāla Kṛṣṅa: Nightmares?

Dr. Sharma: Yes.

Gopāla Kṛṣṅa: Has Dr. Barnard of South Africa stopped it now?

Dr. Sharma: Well, he has stopped after doing nine, but Stanford people, they have done about almost over a hundred, and they can keep somebody alive another six months or a year or at the most two years. But the man, the man's existence is very miserable. He has to take so many drugs, and he is bloated like a balloon, and he cannot even do the simple duties like taking walk or going to bathroom. He has to be very careful. If he just slips, it will develop the fracture of his ventricle, and that's all. It is very, very unnatural, and I don't think they can solve this problem at all. It is just man's struggle life.[?] And I know they are saying they will do only in people with proper insurance, because the hospital bill is $70,000 for a heart transplant.

Prabhupāda: All rascals, they...

Dr. Sharma: This is a perfect example of what Prabhupāda is saying, because this is not justified on any account—moral, ethical, medical...

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Or financial.

Dr. Sharma: Or financial.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Waste of their time.

Dr. Sharma: Really waste of their time, and this is, you know, an example of how stubborn man can be, especially the scientists. I think the real transplant was done was done by the Lord Śiva when he did transplant the head of Lord Gaṅeśa. That was the only successful transplant I know of.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we're going to come back in about two hours. Four o'clock, or [indistinct] with the equipment. So maybe you can help us, especially in making some arrangements around Bombay hospitals, some evening or even a class. [indistinct] can have discussions, proper discussions.

Dr. Sharma: [replying to Svarūpa Dāmodara] So [indistinct]. We will also introduce you to some of the basic scientists, you know, here. [indistinct conversation with Svarūpa Dāmodara] Some of them have a spiritual background, you know. Just they probably are waiting to meet a person like your background or Mādhava's background. I think it's unique; nobody has come out like this. People talk half-heartedly here, and they don't pursue it, they don't have the conviction to pursue it in this country. Very quickly give up. If I get this idea, then next morning I forget about it, and then whatever... I don't even, you know, I am afraid to talk about it. So you have very boldly come out with this, and this so many centuries of tradition is there to back you up. So I think you should pursue it with all your enthusiasm, and with Prabhupāda's blessing you will really go a long way, as I also feel about it. And I am [indistinct].

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It can only be by Prabhupāda's blessings.

Dr. Sharma: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Otherwise it's impossible.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: So you can go somewhere else now. Śrīla Prabhupāda, you wanted to ask Dr. Sharma about altitude?

Prabhupāda: Seven-thousand-feet-high altitude, it is good for a person to go there?

Dr. Sharma: I think it will be better if you go with an oxygen cylinder and by helicopter, not by the routine journey. Not by, you know... Gradual. Because suddenly you can get air hunger, you know, when you...

Prabhupāda: It is risky.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Risky. It is risky.

Dr. Sharma: It is risky, yes. It is risky.

Prabhupāda: Then forget this thing.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: But blood pressure... [break] [end]