Room Conversation about Harijanas

Bhakti-caru: Photo?

Prabhupāda: Which photograph is it?

Bhakti-caru: Dr. Ambedkar. The "One Hundred Million Harijanas Pick a New Messiah."

Prabhupāda: Read that whole thing.

Bhakti-caru: "As the nation observes this week the death anniversary of Dr. Amritsar, it behooves our news research to face a challenge 'for the plight of this downtrodden community.' "

[break] "The story of the vast quantity of harijanas in this ancient and illustrious land is a miserable story of shame and sorrow. Harassment and humiliation, oppression and separation, poverty and pity. The harijana problems is not merely a social or religious or economic or political one. It is a complex problem involving many factors. It is, however, the most baffling national problem, posing a great challenge to the leaders, rulers and people of India."

Prabhupāda: On the whole—you read this article—why not say that "We can lead you to the highest perfection of cultural, social, religion"? It will be...

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: You want us to write a letter to the editor?

Prabhupāda: Not editor. The person who is the leader. Means the harijana movement. They are feeling frustration. Now we can give them the light.

Bhakti-caru: Actually it was written by one professor, K.H.A. Parthan.

Prabhupāda: So just write to him. On the basis of,

māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim [Bg 9.32]

[O son of Pṛthā, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth—women, vaiśyas [merchants], as well as śūdras [workers]—can approach the supreme destination.]

"According to Bhagavad-gītā, we can lead you and make your life successful."

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: One problem I see—of course, I haven't read the article in any detail—but generally they very much oppose—of course, unrightly so—they very much oppose the delineation of "śūdra." When we... They are śūdras, these harijanas, but...

Prabhupāda: But it doesn't matter. We shall elevate them to go back to home, back to Godhead. Whatever he may be. Striyo vaiśyas tathā śūdrāḥ [Bg 9.32]. Kiṁ punar brāhmaṅāḥ puṅyā bhaktā rājarṣayaḥ [Bg 9.33].

[How much greater then are the brāhmaṅas, the righteous, the devotees and saintly kings who in this temporary miserable world engage in loving service unto Me.]

Simply by denying that "I am not śūdra," that will not help. But they must be elevated to the standard of brāhmaṅa. That we will talk later on. But we have to convince that "This world movement is going on to make the human society to the highest perfection of life. If you join, we can help you." To the perfection of life, on the basis of Bhagavad-gītā. There is no difficulty. That we have got. If you really want, there is a way.

Bhakti-caru: They have got unions also, harijanas. How to approach the unions?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Bhakti-caru: They have their unions. How can we approach the union and talk to the leaders?

Prabhupāda: Well, address him, that Dr.... We are actually doing all over the world. Why not here?

Bhakti-caru: But the thing is Dr. Amritsar is dead now. He was the leader of the harijanas.

Prabhupāda: Whoever may be, but they could not do anything. Neither they can do. They do not know how to elevate them. We know that. We can help. And we are actually doing it. The idea is they are feeling frustration for want of leader. We are prepared to guide them to the highest perfection of life. [pause] The defect was Gandhi started this harijana movement, keeping them where they are, and at the same time changing by rubber stamp, "harijana." That must be failure.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Yeah. Unless you change the inner make-up of a man, he won't improve. They are thinking that by spending money, by giving a better home, by these things they'll improve. But we have practically seen in Madras on the beach, these harijanas were given some of the better houses, and they immediately they did one of two things: either they rented the house to someone else and kept living on the street, which is by their nature, or else they turned the house into the street.

Prabhupāda: Hell.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Like hell. So unless you actually reform a person, just by artificially giving him money or if you stamp approval, it won't change anything. You have to change him. And they have no plan for that.

Prabhupāda: They do not know that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: They spend 3,100 crores on the harijanas. Can you imagine if they had given you that money, Śrīla Prabhupāda, what you could have done with it?

Bhakti-caru: Over ninety percent of the money has gone to the [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: Now harijana, he has... Gandhi has degraded the name of harijana to such a position that if somebody comes and if he says, "I am harijana," immediately we shall hate him.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Hmm. We hate him.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because we know there is camar bhangi; he has changed the name, "harijana."

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: That is another thing that we should point out in our letter, that what is the actual meaning of harijana? "One who serves Hari, or Kṛṣṅa."

Prabhupāda: One who has been elevated to the position of associate of Hari. That has to be done. Then it will be first class. That we can do. Nobody can do.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: What is the translation for the word jana?

Prabhupāda: Jana means person. Hari means the Lord. A government man. Hari's man. Like Nārada.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Nārada Muni is a harijana.

Prabhupāda: Yes. All devotees.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Yeah. He is well known. [break] [reading:] "The only remedy lies in the ending of their subservience to the higher castes and securing for them economic independence. But according to the Bhāgavatam, a śūdra can never be given economic independence." If they want economic independence, they should elevate themselves to the higher caste. As long as there...

Prabhupāda: It will not become higher caste. They do not know. Economic independence, who is checking now? There is no such check all over the world. Just like in Bombay. Everyone can do business. So why they cannot do?

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Because they are not intelligent enough.

Prabhupāda: That means they have no intelligence.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: That means they are śūdra. And if someone is a śūdra, how can you let him have his own money?

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, everything requires intelligence. If you haven't got that standard of intelligence, how you can do it? Nowadays, suppose if you do some business, is there a hindrance that "You are low class; you cannot do this business"? Neither the government nor the society. You can do it. Why you cannot do it? Just like in Bengal, the Marwaris are rich and Bengalis are... Their land, their country, and they're naturalized. And the Marwaris have big, large [indistinct]. It is your incapability. Why don't you admit that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Look at this question, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It says "Who are these harijanas? What is their origin? What sins did they commit?"

Prabhupāda: Then you answer that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Yeah, we can answer these questions. Yes, they did commit sins. Therefore they are in this position.

Prabhupāda: Don't say [indistinct]. Harijana means the person associated with God.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: But these men are... I mean their position... Everyone is getting what he deserves. So if they are in a downtrodden...

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is prakṛteḥ kriyamāṅāni guṅaiḥ karmāṅi [Bg 3.27]. Sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu. Kāraṅaṁ guṅa-saṅgo 'sya [Bg 13.22]. This is the science.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Yes. If they are in a downtrodden condition, it's due to their past activities.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now you can rectify it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Right, it can be reversed.

Prabhupāda: It is not that you shall remain... Then, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ [Bg 9.32].

[O son of Pṛthā, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth—women, vaiśyas [merchants], as well as śūdras [workers]—can approach the supreme destination.]

If you accept Kṛṣṅa consciousness, even you are born in low-grade caste or family, you can be elevated. That is to be done. What is done is done. Now we can elevate from this position. That is our capacity.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: [reading] "There are no authentic answers to these questions."

Prabhupāda: There is. Kāraṅaṁ guṅa-saṅgo 'sya [Bg 3.27]. Read Bhagavad-gītā. Kāraṅaṁ guṅa-saṅgo 'sya. Here is authentic answer. Why he's giving that...? That means you are not in proper leadership. If you... Just explain that if you infect cholera disease, germ, you must suffer. That is nature's law. Similarly, kāraṅaṁ guṅa-saṅgaḥ asya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu. Now you can change the kāraṅa, the cause. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ [Bg 9.32]. And you can neutralize. Māṁ ca avyabhicāreṅa bhakti-yogena yaḥ. Quote this. Everything is there in Bhagavad-gītā.

avyabhicāreṅa bhakti-yogena ya sevate sa guṅān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg 14.26]

[One who engages in full devotional service, who does not fall down in any circumstance, at once transcends the modes of material nature and thus comes to the level of Brahman.]

Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati [Bg 18.54].

[And of all yogīs, he who always abides in Me with great faith, worshiping Me in transcendental loving service, is most intimately united with Me in yoga and is the highest of all.]

Everything is there.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: This would be a good... [break]

Indian devotee: [Hindi conversation with Śrīla Prabhupāda as Prabhupāda eats]

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Did he cook these here today?

Indian devotee: No, he didn't.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: If he cooks here, it will be hot. All of these things were cooked there and brought here, so they become a little cold.

Prabhupāda: No, it was already prepared. You bring little salt. [break] They do not know "Why I am in downtrodden condition?" The answer is there: kāraṅaṁ guṅa-saṅgo 'sya [Bg 13.22].

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Says, "They desire freedom from the age-old shackles of superstition..."

Prabhupāda: Where is the shackle, age-old shackles? Where is the shackle?

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: There is nothing keeping them down. It's their own inability.

Prabhupāda: You are keeping yourself in shackle. If you want to be educated... There was also... Dr. Ambedkar, he belonged to the harijana. How he became a law member? Where is the shackle?

Bhakti-caru: Even Jagjivan Ram is there.

Prabhupāda: Where is the shackle?

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Yeah, how did he become?

Prabhupāda: [Hindi conversation with Indian devotee]

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: [reading] "According to the constitutional directives, harijanas should account for twenty percent of the posts in the government service." But first of all they should be qualified. We can use the example that if your father is a high-court justice, does it make you a high-court justice?

Prabhupāda: No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: First you have to be qualified.

Prabhupāda: This is no plea, that there is checking: because he is born in a low-grade family, there is no educational facilities. "You cannot do it," say that, "for want of culture."

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: So then they quote Dr. Ambedkar saying, "We will attain self-elevation only if we learn self-help, regain self-respect, and gain self-knowledge." But what is the self, they don't know.

Prabhupāda: That we can teach.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: He said, "The surest way for our salvation lies in higher education."

Prabhupāda: So who forbids? Is there any restriction, that? [break] [Hindi]

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: It says here, "Here are some measures to be implemented. The caste system should be abolished." They are always trying to abolish the caste system.

Prabhupāda: The caste system... Where is the hindrance in the caste system? If you want to become a brāhmaṅa, you can become a brāhmaṅa. Why it should be abolished?

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Incorrect understanding of it should be abolished.

Prabhupāda: "This is the definition of becoming a brāhmaṅa." Give this.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Śamaḥ damaḥ kṣamā śaucam.

Prabhupāda: So you have to learn it, how you can become a brāhmaṅa.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Just like if a man has a disease, just by saying he doesn't have the disease, you can't change the fact that he is diseased. If someone actually is in a certain position, you can't... The way to change it is by actually changing him, not by simply saying, "Now you're okay."

Prabhupāda: These are the symptoms of becoming a brāhmaṅa. You develop these symptoms. Who checks you? Practically we are doing all over the world. There is no such thing.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: All the measures...

Prabhupāda: Caste system should not be abolished, but it must be properly established. That is wanted. If you have got any defect in the eye, not that the eye should be plucked out. But it should be treated and brought into the normal condition. That is wanted. That we admit. You want to become brāhmaṅa without brahminical qualification. Not only you, everyone wants.

Bhakti-caru: Actually, you told Professor Kotovsky that this caste system is existing everywhere, in every society in the world.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. In the body there is caste system. The head is the brāhmaṅa, the hand is the kṣatriya, the belly is the vaiśya and the leg is the śūdra. Everything head, that will not help. There must be leg also. But it must be conducted under the guidance of the head. Then it is all right. If the head is not there and leg is utilized for jumping, that is monkey's business. The leg must work according to the dictation of the head. The hand must work according to the dictation of the head. "The caste system should be abolished." What is the caste system? There is no caste system. Everyone is śūdra. Who is a brāhmaṅa now, qualified, except one or two in our camp?

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: The article ends by saying, "Let harijanas be their own pathfinders, and let them lead themselves from darkness to light, from pain to pleasure."

Prabhupāda: That you do not know. Otherwise you would have done it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: "And from a living hell to tranquillity and joy of life."

Prabhupāda: You do not know how to do it. Otherwise you had done it. You do not know the way. We can teach you. So cooperate with us; we shall fulfill your ambition. That's all right.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: I'll have to work on this. It will take a little time to write nicely.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. No, no.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: There is no rush, I think, because...

Prabhupāda: We are willing to help them. And we are the only right person who can help them.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: That's for sure.

Prabhupāda: Nobody knows. If he is serious, let him come and talk with us.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Then we can end the letter to him like that. [break]

Prabhupāda: ...capture the ideas.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Oh, yeah, very much.

Prabhupāda: Now explain it nicely.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: All right.

Prabhupāda: We can actually help them. Not by imagination, but practical application. And are doing all over the world. [break] In '68 I was alone. And I had to struggle very, very hard, alone. Therefore I got heart attack in 1967. Then that heart attack and regress continued for two years. Whatever is done, it is done from 1969. Before that, I was simply alone struggling to start this mission. [pause] Before that, I came to Bombay.

Indian man: In '69?

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Indian man: '70?

Prabhupāda: '64. I stayed at Morarji's Andheri...

Indian man: Andheri House.

Prabhupāda: ...Colony for his employees.

Indian man: Scindia Line. Scindia Steamship.

Prabhupāda: Yes, colony. I stayed there. Sometimes I stayed with one gentleman in Churchgate. He is a banker, Sindhi gentleman. In '65, Sumati Morarji gave me that ticket.

Indian man: You went away then, I think.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. [pause] This is our old system. When one cannot eat, even in invitation, the whole thing, he can take away the balance for his family. Canda-walla. Especially the brāhmaṅas. They will sit down and take everything, and...

Indian man: [laughing] Give to their family.

Prabhupāda: People will give more, because he will take to the family.

Indian man: Thank you very much.

Prabhupāda: Jaya. Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṅa. Jaya. [break]

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Yes, he's very impressive. He has a very charming personality.

Prabhupāda: And he can talk very nicely.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: On any subject.

Prabhupāda: And always smiling. Even if you irritate him, he will smile.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: That's a fact.

Prabhupāda: Sometimes I have said so many strong words. That is my habit. But he is still very humble and meek. I never expected that he would call, reply me. [indistinct]

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Sometimes in Delhi I would go with him to some minister or something, and he would tell some story. I thought, "Why is he doing this story? He has no sense."

Prabhupāda: He is known to the ambassador, American ambassador.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Yeah. He took me there once. He knew him pretty well. But every time he would tell these stories.

Prabhupāda: Keath, Mr. Keath?

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Keating, Kenneth Keating.

Prabhupāda: So he was very friendly with him. He used to talk in his personal room. He made friends with him. His girlfriend... [laughs] And she offered her car, "Please come in our car."

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Oh, Mr. Keating's girlfriend, the ambassador's girlfriend.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Though [indistinct] old, but still, he's to be sent to help us.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Yes. Yeah, you can only send Gurudāsa on these kind of special missions. He likes it very much also.

Prabhupāda: No, whole Vṛndāvana likes him. Nobody speaks against him.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Yeah, he always discusses a lot of kṛṣṅa-kathā. He likes to talk about Kṛṣṅa. He is going to Poland.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He speaks in the university very nicely.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: His wife is also nice, but when they are combined together, they become little spoiled. He becomes little lusty. That is his wife's complaint. I got them married in San Francisco. [pause] So you can take another letter to the manager, for the bank, "You take eighty thousand from current account, and twenty thousand is coming from Calcutta. Both together, you make one M.M.D., M.M.D.A."

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: For seven years.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Actually, I've already typed that letter for eighty thousand, so I can add a N.B., that an additional twenty thousand is coming from Calcutta, and as soon as it comes...

Prabhupāda: Yes, you advise to Bombay, advise him to.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Yeah. Should I enclose a copy of the letter to Calcutta also?

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Not that... Letter written to Calcutta, that copy should be enclosed to the...

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Yeah, that's what I meant. Actually, that's good, because he'll be eager to follow through to see that the money comes, because he is going to get the benefit of fixing it in his bank. [pause]

Prabhupāda: If possible we can start a center in Srinagar. If there is opportunity. Many foreigners come?

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Many foreigners come.

Prabhupāda: If we start a center there, it will be very nice. That will be also one of the items of tourist program.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: We can get Dr. Karan Singh's help very easily in Srinagar.

Prabhupāda: And Raja Sheikh Abdullah has taken our Bhagavad-gītā, so we can invite him to talk.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Who?

Prabhupāda: Sheikh Abdullah, the prime minister there, Kashmir.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Is he a chief minister or prime minister?

Prabhupāda: Chief minister.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Kashmir is part of India, a province. [pause] Then if you get your health back, in May, that will be very nice. Regarding that tīrtha-yatra, this going in the monsoon, it doesn't seem like a good time. June and July, those are not good months for touring India.

Prabhupāda: No, if we get good response, we can stay a little more.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Maybe we should go with a few..., with some kīrtana party. If we see there is a response, then we should...

Prabhupāda: If we..., you get one kīrtana party if you like.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: It seems like it.

Prabhupāda: Not immediately.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: First we'll see.

Prabhupāda: But you can take if you like as many books as possible. As many books, our books.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Our books for showing, carrying with us. One full set. I think the best way for that would be that maybe we'll have Kṣīra-cora-gopīnātha Prabhu go by train with full set of books, because taking on the plane is very difficult. It will be overweight. But he can go by train. It is not very long. It is about one day, one and a half days complete journey. And then he can take easily a lot of baggage.

Prabhupāda: He will take from Delhi?

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: The train? No, actually he can take from Bombay.

Prabhupāda: From Bombay to Kashmir direct.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Either direct or through Delhi. The Punjab Mail. I think there is a Punjab Mail.

Prabhupāda: Punjab Mail goes up to border of Kashmir.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: So something like that. I mean he can..., we could fix that up.

Prabhupāda: No, as many books you can carry without any difficulty you can take.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: On the plane. Okay. Maybe Gurudāsa should wait there for awhile. If Gurudāsa and I go together as a preaching team, we can conquer anywhere.

Prabhupāda: Very good.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: I mean, we will bring everyone that you want to see.

Prabhupāda: If you send a report, tell him that "You stay; we are coming."

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: We should send a telegram. But he's going to... His letter is coming. So I think we should wait for his letter and then reply it. Yeah, because in the afternoons there is no problem for me to go out for a few hours preaching with him, you know, if need be.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Meeting influential...

Prabhupāda: If many important people come. If possible they must come.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Do they speak Kashmiri language, the people, or is it Hindi?

Prabhupāda: Hindi they speak. And English everywhere. [pause]

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: English. [pause] When we first came to India, everywhere you were going, you would leave some men behind to open a temple. You went to Amritsar with our party, and on the way, that one man met you at the train, and you told Gurudāsa, "Take three men, get off the train and open a center." Wherever you were going, some men you would leave behind. You left Śyāmasundara and myself here, and then you went to Amritsar. So Śyāmasundara, he felt very much left behind.

Prabhupāda: He's a good boy. I have several times sent him message that "Whatever is done, you come back and live [indistinct] here." He wants to give back something.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: He wants to give back some money?

Prabhupāda: Yes, because he has spoiled so much money.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: I don't even know if that's his motive anymore.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: I wonder if that's his motive anymore. It's been so long now. The thing is, he was never very able to follow the principles, you know, very strictly. That seems to always be a tell-tale thing. If one cannot follow the principles, then it's only a question of time until he'll...

Prabhupāda: Fall down.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: ...fall down. That's one of the reasons that I wanted to have Bali-mardana spend a couple of hours in the evening, so that by turn each of your servants could go to the maṅgala-ārati. 'Cause now none of them are going, because we are all staying up at night. So by having an extra man, we can take turns going to the ārati. Kṣīra-corā-gopīnātha, I arranged for him to go to ārati every morning because he is a brand-new man. So for him it is difficult.

Prabhupāda: No, he should go. [pause]

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: One thing I was..., there is always some smell of onion or garlic here. This place, very often there is smell from cooking of garlic or onion. It is coming from those houses.

Prabhupāda: Tenant.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: They eat.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: They eat meat.

Prabhupāda: It is not meat. They are eating garlic. Those Christian tenant, they are eating. And onion everyone eats.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Except for us. Americans are very fond of onions. Yeah. They can eat a whole onion sometimes in one meal. They eat raw. Especially in the salad they will put onion.

Prabhupāda: For a meat-eater, onion is very sweet.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: For fish-eater?

Prabhupāda: And fish-eater.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Fish, meats.

Prabhupāda: Actually, meat has no taste. The onion creates taste.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Dead flesh.

Prabhupāda: Onion is used. Onions. In India both Hindus and Muslims eat. More than potato, it is said.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Hmm. Potato is king of vegetables.

Prabhupāda: We have seen many canvassers. [calling like street vendor:] "Bataka."

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Hmm.

Prabhupāda: Kada bataka.[?] Everyone has to eat. The Maharastrians, they eat, even the brāhmaṅas. In 1927, I came to Bombay and stayed in the Empire Hindu Hotel. I think it is still there. Very nice hotel. So it is under Maharastrians. Very neat and clean, everything. Gave me onions. "What is this? Onions?" I was surprised. "I don't eat."

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: He must have been surprised that you wouldn't eat it.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: He probably was surprised.

Prabhupāda: Well, they know... Mostly Hindus they do not eat. But they are accustomed now. Just like Bengal, fish-eating is no offense.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Even the brāhmaṅas.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Brāhmaṅa, gosāis, so-called gurus.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: When has this all begun, this fish-eating in Bengal? This was always going on?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Fish, ninety-nine percent people take fish in Bengal. Only few, they do not. When there is some, what is called, ceremony, fish must be there. And fish is available. Now Bengal is divided, East, West. Otherwise, immense fish in Bengal.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: From the east side of Bengal. And rice was coming from there too.

Prabhupāda: So their staple food is rice and fish.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: East Bengal is very wealthy from that point of view. Rice.

Prabhupāda: Pakistan was rich only on account of East Bengal. The pān. Practically it supplies pān to all over India. And betel nut.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: That's a place that we have not really...

Prabhupāda: And milk also produced in very large quantity. East Bengal is rich in vegetable, milk, fish.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: I think that when we go to Kash...[end]