Conversation with disciples of Chinmayananda and Shivananda Ashram

Indian man (1): ...mūrti, Shivananda Ashram.

Prabhupāda: That Pabai[?] Ashram?

Indian man (2): Tirtha Swami.

Indian man (1): Krishna Chaitanya Shivananda Ashram. Virendra[?]. Shri Narayana Shri Caitanya, he has Swami Krishna[?]. He has [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: Now people are taking our philosophy. So your mission also, preach in the same way. People will be benefited. The whole world is taking Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Kṛṣṅas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28].

[All of the above-mentioned incarnations are either plenary portions or portions of the plenary portions of the Lord, but Lord Śrī Kṛṣṅa is the original Personality of Godhead. All of them appear on planets whenever there is a disturbance created by the atheists. The Lord incarnates to protect the theists.]

Aham ādir hi devānām [Bg 10.2]. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti... [Bg 7.7].

[O conqueror of wealth [Arjuna], there is no Truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread.]

Preach this. People will take it. This knowledge is there in India, and they require to be educated with this knowledge. And we have tried little bit, and they are accepting. Why don't you do that? They have taken. I said, "Here is Kṛṣṅa, the Supreme Lord. You worship Him." Kṛṣṅa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī mām. Why don't you teach this? Hmm? You are not teaching this, that "Accept Kṛṣṅa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Always think of Him. Man-manāḥ. Become a devotee. Offer Him obeisances." Why don't you teach this? Hmm? What is the difficulty?

Indian man (2): Excuse me. I could not follow.

Prabhupāda: Why don't you teach as Kṛṣṅa wants? It is a plain word. Why you are teaching something else?

Indian man (2): Hare Kṛṣṅa says you have to teach.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Indian man (2): You have to teach, Hare Kṛṣṅa says. We have to follow all this...

Prabhupāda: So how many kṛṣṅa-bhaktas you have got? You see thousands. What you are teaching?

Indian man (1): Swāmījī, our mission is to...

Prabhupāda: Whatever your mission, I am talking of Bhagavad-gītā. The many missions are there. I am not concerned with them. I am concerned with Kṛṣṅa. Why don't you do that?

Indian man (3): We are here to take His message only.

Prabhupāda: But who is taking your message? It is not effective. But here you see, they have taken message. They have dedicated their life for Kṛṣṅa. You could not do so. The message must be effective. Otherwise, simply talking, what is the benefit?

Indian man (3): Swāmījī, excuse me. I don't see any difference between the person to person.

Prabhupāda: There is difference. Cat and dog, there is difference. An intelligent man and a rascal is difference. There must be difference. Cātur-varṅyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṅa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg 4.13].

[According to the three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me. And, although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the non-doer, being unchangeable.]

How you say there is no difference? A brāhmaṅa is brāhmaṅa. A kṣatriya is kṣatriya. Vaiśya is vaiśya. That is real understanding. If you say, "Everyone is brāhmaṅa," that's not good.

Indian man (3): But we have been told to see only one consciousness, one life, between indi...

Prabhupāda: That oneness is on the spiritual platform. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati, samaḥ sarveṣu [Bg 18.54].

[And of all yogīs, he who always abides in Me with great faith, worshiping Me in transcendental loving service, is most intimately united with Me in yoga and is the highest of all.]

That is another thing. But so long you have got a bodily concept of life, you must divide: cātur-varṅyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṅa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg 4.13]. That is wanted. Just like in my body there is division. There is head. There is hand. There is leg. There is belly. So they have got different activities. The head is important. If you cut the head, then whole thing is finished.

Indian man (3): We need the substratum because of which we identify with the processes.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Indian man (3): We need the substratum because of which we see the differences.

Prabhupāda: Difference is there in your body. Do you think the head and the leg the same thing?

Indian man (3): But certain occupation...

Prabhupāda: No, no, I mean to say that you have to take work from the head and from the leg, but head and leg different. Sva-karmaṅā tam abhyarcya [Bg 18.46]. That is science. If you want to take the work of head from the leg, that is foolishness. Head must remain head, leg must remain leg, but you take the work of leg for walking; you take the work of the brain for thinking. That is wanted. Evasive is no good. So anyway, our mission is that Indians especially, they should take advantage of Bhagavad-gītā—not by distorting the meaning. As it is. You cannot distort the statement of Bhagavad-gītā. Then you defy the authority of Bhagavad-gītā. You manufacture your own way. That is very bad. Then there is no authority. Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yad vadasi keśava [Bg 10.14].

[O Kṛṣṅa, I totally accept as truth all that You have told me. Neither the gods nor demons, O Lord, know Thy personality.]

As Arjuna... "Whatever You say, I have accepted." That is the need, not that "I am very learned scholar; I can change the meaning." That is not good. You are not greater authority than Kṛṣṅa. Thinking like that is foolishness. Kṛṣṅa is authority. All the ācāryas—Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Kṛṣṅa Caitanya Mahāprabhu—they have all accepted kṛṣṅas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28].

[All of the above-mentioned incarnations are either plenary portions or portions of the plenary portions of the Lord, but Lord Śrī Kṛṣṅa is the original Personality of Godhead. All of them appear on planets whenever there is a disturbance created by the atheists. The Lord incarnates to protect the theists.]

How you can speak something else what, against what, the instruction of Kṛṣṅa?

Indian man (3): What is the means by which we know what Gītā says to us, Swāmījī?

Prabhupāda: Do you don't know what Gītā says? Then why do you read Gītā? Don't read.

Indian man (3): But there must be some means that you can adopt...

Prabhupāda: No, no. Do you know what Gītā says? Do you know it? What Gītā says, do you know it? You do not know?

Indian man (3): Swāmījī, nobody knows Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: Nobody knows! You do not know. We know. Why do you say, "Nobody knows"? You do not know. It is open secret. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam... [Bg 18.66]. You do not know. But don't say that "Nobody knows." That is wrong impression. We know. You are blind. You do not like to know it. Everyone should know. What is the difficulty?

Indian man (3): No, Swāmījī, I mean...

Prabhupāda: No, I do not know what you mean. But you say, "Nobody knows." That is a wrong impression. Everyone knows. You do not know. That is my...

Indian man (2): Swāmījī, we have been taught like this and, in fact, now we are convinced on that point. We are convinced.

Prabhupāda: No, everyone knows, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg 18.65],

[Always think of Me and become My devotee. Worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend.]

sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam [Bg 18.66]. These are open secret. What is the difficulty?

Indian man (3): Differences in meaning...

Prabhupāda: You can take different meaning, but we do not take like that. We take Bhagavad-gītā as it is.

Indian man (4): Swāmījī, how do we know that the meaning is distorted?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man (4): How do we know that the meaning is distorted?

Prabhupāda: Because you do not worship Kṛṣṅa.

Indian man (4): Swāmī?

Prabhupāda: Because you do not worship Kṛṣṅa. It is plain fact. But we worship Kṛṣṅa. In every temple, all over the world, 102 temples, we worship Kṛṣṅa. But you don't worship Kṛṣṅa.

Indian man (3): No, we worship all gods, Swāmījī, irrespective of...

Prabhupāda: Ah, that means avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam [Bg 9.11],

[Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature and My supreme dominion over all that be.]

kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajante anya-devatāḥ [Bg 7.20]. Hṛta-jñānāḥ, naṣṭa-buddhayaḥ.

Indian man (3): Swāmījī, we are interested in...

Indian man (2): I think...

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man (3): Excuse me, Swāmījī. We are interested in that one meaning which is the essence of the Indian culture. If we are wrong, we are ready to correct ourselves.

Prabhupāda: No... You'll never correct yourself, because you do not understand what is Bhagavad-gītā. That is the difficulty. You say that "Nobody understands." You say.

Indian man (3): No, Swāmījī...

Prabhupāda: At least you do not understand.

Indian man (3): Please forgive me if I have given a wrong...

Prabhupāda: At least you do not understand. That's all.

Indian man (2): Are we not, potentially, not to understand Bhagavad-gītā, then?

Prabhupāda: Everyone. What is the difficulty? But you understand in a different way. It is simple thing. Everyone understands. This is expected. But you understand in different way. That is the difficulty. You create your own meaning.

Indian man (3): I request, Swāmījī, on what basis we can say that it is a different meaning or distorted meaning and not the meaning which the Gītā says...?

Prabhupāda: Because you say that nobody knows. You say. And whatever meaning, that is in your mind, but you said nobody knows.

Indian man (5): No, that is quite mistaken talk.

Prabhupāda: That mistake... Then what can I talk? It is mistake.

Indian man (3): I said nobody knows until he knows.

Prabhupāda: So if one does not want to know, how he'll know?

Indian man (5): Whatever Swāmījī says, that...

Prabhupāda: Yes. And Kṛṣṅa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam [Bg 18.66]. Why don't you do that? Who has got the...?

Indian man (5): We want to be student. Sarva-dharmān is word.

Prabhupāda: That... That means you become student; hear me and you'll learn it. It is not the one minute's business.

Indian man (5): Somehow you can give some that, advice from you. But whatever...

Prabhupāda: Advice... Well, you come here. Stay here. We shall teach you. Not that you have come here for five minutes, I have to teach you sarva-dharmān...

Indian man (5): No, you don't have time.

Prabhupāda: No, I have got time. So that's all right. You have to... You have to learn it.

Indian man (3): Swāmījī, you bless ourselves in such a way that we will not...

Prabhupāda: You have come. You are welcome here and take the blessings. But you won't come. When I say, "Come here and take the blessings," you won't come. What can I do? If one has fallen in the blind well—"Please get me up! Get me up!"—so I give him a rope: "Yes, catch it. I'll get you..." "No, no, I shall not catch." Without catching, there is no... So if you want to learn, come here. Stay. We shall teach you. That you won't do. Then how can I teach you? You learn from them. Just see these European and Americans, how they are... You have to learn from them by their behavior. These are American boys. Just see how they have tilaka, how they...

Indian man (3): No, Swāmījī, we know Swāmījī's tremendous work going on around the world.

Prabhupāda: So if I can teach them, who did not know what is Kṛṣṅa, I cannot teach you? I can teach you. But you won't take the teaching. That is the difficulty. Stubborn. That is the difficulty.

Indian man (1): Swāmījī, we have thrown ourself on his lap, Swāmījī. There is... [indistinct] We have thrown ourselves, performed everything. We have left our home, everything.

Prabhupāda: But what for?

Indian man (1): And he's our bread, and he's our... He'll look after us. That's all.

Prabhupāda: What for? Śrama eva hi kevalam.

Indian man (1): Everything...

Prabhupāda: It is śrama eva hi kevalam.

dharmaḥ svanuṣṭhitaḥ puṁsāṁ viṣvaksena-kathāsu yaḥ notpādayed ratiṁ yadi śrama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8]

[The occupational activities a man performs according to his own position are only so much useless labor if they do not provoke attraction for the message of the Personality of Godhead.]

After leaving your home and everything, if you do not understand Kṛṣṅa, śrama eva hi kevalam—it is simply waste of time. If you want to waste your time, that's all...

Indian man (3): If Swāmījī forgives me, I don't see... I have read Swāmījī's...

Prabhupāda: That is your blindness. You do not see the...

Indian man (3): I don't find any difference between Kṛṣṅa consciousness and the concept of our Brahman.

Prabhupāda: No, then you do not know what is Brahman, what is Kṛṣṅa. That means you are not fully in knowledge.

Indian man (3): Ācchā... It is not a name, sir.

Prabhupāda: It is clearly stated, brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate.

Indian man (6): Are we not catching only names and forms?

Prabhupāda: You can do anything nonsense. Who cares for you? The śāstra is there.

Indian man (6): Hari means knowledge[?]. Vāsudeva means...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim... Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ [Bg 16.23].

[But he who discards scriptural injunctions and acts according to his own whims attains neither perfection, nor happiness, nor the supreme destination.]

This is in Gītā. You do not know it. Na sa siddhim avāpnoti. He'll never get success. Na sukhaṁ na parāṁ gatim. That is there. Here is śāstra.

vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śab... [SB 1.2.11]

[Learned transcendentalists who know the Absolute Truth call this nondual substance Brahman, Paramātmā or Bhagavān.]

You do not know.

Indian man (1): Swāmījī, can't...

Prabhupāda: No, don't waste my time.

Indian man (5): Swāmījī, we have not come to waste. We have come here to take only your blessings.

Prabhupāda: That's all. I cannot... I cannot waste my time in this way. We have got our śāstras. We are following them. That's all. If you want, you learn here. Otherwise do your whatever you like. Let us alone. We have no difficulty. We are triumphant all over the world. That's all. Phalena paricīyate. We have to see by the result, not by talking. So thank you very much for your coming. Give them pra...

Indian man (5): So please bless us.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṅa. But if you are interested, you are welcome.

Indian man (3): Yes, Swāmījī.

Indian man (6): When door is kept open, it is...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (6): ...very natural to come to you, Swāmījī.

Prabhupāda: Jaya.

Indian man (1): Really, Swāmījī, bless [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: Jaya. Jaya. Aiye. [Hindi] [guests leave]

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Next time maybe we should deal with them.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Is it all right that they are brought in, or should we talk to them?

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is all right.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Not necessary to bring these people.

Prabhupāda: Distorting meaning.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Phew! This... The thing is, their guru is nonsense, so he's attracted nonsense disciples. They want to be cheated, and they have the cheating guru.

Prabhupāda: They have come from Hawaii?

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Hawaii. Hawaii.

Prabhupāda: Oh, oh, that Hawaii program.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Two of them are disciples of Shivananda Ashram in Rishikesh, and three of them are from Swami Chin... They're Swami Chinmayananda's disciples. Swami Chinmayananda has this program. He advertises for getting young men. Now they're the second batch. They study different Vedas and Upaniṣads. [end].