Discussion about Bhū-maṅḍala

Prabhupāda: And you think it is religion.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Yeah, and he's an animal. What does he know?

Śatadhanya: And he's limited to a certain atmosphere.

Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. He is animal. Know that. What is his idea? And he has not correctly estimated how high is Himalaya.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: No. A gross underestimation—five miles instead of eighty thousand. Not even close. That means he has no idea.

Prabhupāda: There are... I have seen many places by aeroplane, hilly tract. Perhaps you have also seen. They could never go there. Hundreds and thousands of miles, simply stone.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Yeah, that we've seen.

Prabhupāda: Who is going there?

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Yeah...

Prabhupāda: You have seen from aeroplane?

Śatadhanya: Some. Some mountains.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: In the Alps no one can go there. There's places in the Alps. There's simply so many mountains, no one can go there. The map as the modern people show it—India, Africa, Europe, America, North America, South America—do we accept that much?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Do we accept the contour of the continents? Do we accept the general continents?

Prabhupāda: We accept nothing of their theory. They are prejudiced and nonsense. Formerly they were speaking that the world is flat. Now they have changed: "It is round." So what is the value of his estimate? And you'll find in that book, "probably."

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: That was the most frequent word used.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So what is the value of their knowledge? Besides that, they'll insist that life is combination of chemicals, and they cannot produce it. Simply useless. So it is, what is called, childish obstinacy. So why shall I believe them? Just like a child cries, "I want. I want," it is like that. There is no science. Still they will say it is science.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: It's nescience.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Nescience.

Prabhupāda: Where is the proof that you'll produce life from chemicals? We say it cannot be, and they say, "Yes, it is..."

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Everything in life comes from some other life.

Prabhupāda: We say that "You have never gone to moon." They will say, "Yes, we have gone." Now they have mentioned, "It is hoax." So how we can believe them? What is the value of their statement? And they promise future, "Yes, we are trying."

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Post-dated check.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: So something's wrong with their instrument. When they fly from Los Angeles and their compass...

Prabhupāda: Nothing is wrong. From their estimate it is all right. But there is superior power.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: They go due west and they hit India from Los Angeles, but according to our calculation, that's not possible.

Prabhupāda: You can go further, but you cannot go. That is condition. You are restricted. The same, that you are bound up. If an animal can go further... But he cannot, because he is bound up. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate [Bg 3.27]. He is thinking, "I am free." He is not free. So what is the value of his education? This is the real point.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: But they'll want to talk about another point.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: They'll want to talk about the point that the point on their compass that points west while they're flying in the airplane, and they keep it going west, and they eventually land in India from Los Angeles.

Prabhupāda: You are flying west or east—you do not know. You are controlled.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: They say, "No, our compass shows it. And you accept the compass."

Prabhupāda: That's all right. You are going west, but do you think where you think that the west is end, that is not end. You can go further.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: They say it never ends because we're going around the planet.

Prabhupāda: No, that is his dog's mentality, going round. That is dog. He is thinking that "This is the area. Now I..." He's controlled by superior power, that "You cannot go." An example is... There are so many. "There are so many stars, moons, and we'll go there." But he cannot go.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: They say, "We accept this premise, that we are limited."

Prabhupāda: But then limited, you cannot say final.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: "But we say within our limited means we can understand that..."

Prabhupāda: And limited means if you understand that "I am bound up. I am going round the law," that is all right. But don't say that "Beyond this limit there is nothing."

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: No, they don't.

Prabhupāda: No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: But supposing that within this limit we accept that we are limited.

Prabhupāda: That is all right.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: But we say that we're going west and...

Prabhupāda: That's right, west up to this point, rascal, not more than that. Why don't you understand this? West you have gone. That's all right. But after this point, no more. You cannot go. You don't say that there is no more after this west... They are saying that.

Śatadhanya: Yeah, they say, "Then west becomes east."

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Right, they say.

Śatadhanya: They say.

Prabhupāda: No.

Śatadhanya: But why? Just because it is finished for them...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śatadhanya: ...'cause they are limited.

Prabhupāda: Unlimited.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: But how do they fly direct to India?

Prabhupāda: Unlimited way.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: This question they're still going to put. They're still going to put this question, that they... We say, "Here is Jambūdvīpa, and this is Bhārata-varṣa on the bottom, and you cannot go beyond Bhārata-varṣa because you're conditioned; you're limited. That is our position. And within Bhārata-varṣa there is India. We accept that. Even we accept that. There are oceans. There are continents, seven continents, as described in the Bhāgavatam." So their question is: "Okay, but then how do you explain that you can go this direction and you come out in India, over..., back here?"

Prabhupāda: We don't say that, that this direction, what you are saying, it is end. That is not. We say that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: That it doesn't end.

Prabhupāda: That you can go further, but you cannot go. Therefore you are thinking, "This is end of this position." The same dog mentality. He is within that small area. He is thinking, "There is no more other space." That example is another, that bull. His eyes are closed, and he crushes the oil mill, going. He's thinking he is going three hundred miles.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: They keep the eyes blinded so they won't...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: ...understand what's going on.

Prabhupāda: Because in one place, simply going round, going round, it makes one mad. So those eyes are closed. He is thinking, "This is the end of world."

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: So you have said that, but still you have not given the solution.

Prabhupāda: This is solution.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: You've explained it...

Prabhupāda: Solution is that you are thinking, "This is this." You are making solution. You are making solution.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: We're trying to make.

Prabhupāda: But I say, because you are limited, this is not this. What you are thinking, "This is this," that is not.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: So what is it?

Prabhupāda: Kūpa-maṅḍūka, the frog in the well, he is thinking that "This is the whole water area."

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Then what is it? If it is not what I am thinking, then what is it?

Prabhupāda: That I am explaining. Take it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: But we can't explain it. That's the problem.

Prabhupāda: No, no, why cannot explain?

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: That's the problem.

Prabhupāda: It is there, given in the book. What you are doing?

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: According to the book, according to Bhāgavata and the picture that we have drawn, there's only one way to go from America to India.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: There's only one way to go from America to India, not two—at least to our vision. So far, we have not been able to explain it. That's our problem.

Prabhupāda: How do you know? What...

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Well, I'd better... I can bring our diagram.

Prabhupāda: Here is America. Here is India. If you go immediately, then one way, that's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Yeah, only one way. But they go two ways.

Prabhupāda: Two way?

Śatadhanya: From New York or from San Francisco.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: They can go from New York, that direction, or they go from Los Angeles, the other way. Either way, they come to India, and they say, "That proves the world is round, 'cause we can go like this or we can go this way." But we say, "No, you can only go this way." They say, "But the compass shows I am going due east..."

Prabhupāda: So we don't say differently. You can go this way.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: But we don't say that. Because there's no "round." We say basically it's a lotus; it's not...

Prabhupāda: No, I... It is the same example. Just a animal is bound up, so he's going this round or this round, the same thing. But you cannot go beyond that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: That they'll... "We accept." I'll take the view of the scientists...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Yes. We don't say. Suppose you are going round, you'll go this round or this round, but within the round.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Okay. But the whole question we're saying is that we say, "No, you can only go one way."

Prabhupāda: No, I don't say.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: But according to our...

Prabhupāda: If you are going round, you can go round this way or that way.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: But there is no round.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is round. You are thinking round. You are going round... [break]

Prabhupāda: Lotus is also round. Lotus, that petal is also round. Lotus petal is round. So within one lotus petal this round or that round, there is.

Śatadhanya: And within their own limited sphere they can go this way or that way. But they don't know the whole shape.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: We have to draw the shape probably, because according to what we've drawn so far...

Prabhupāda: That you can do, but real thing is we can remain within the limit.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: That we accept.

Prabhupāda: So within the limit... Suppose the lotus petal is this way, that way, or this way...

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: You're asking us to draw the details and make a planetarium very exact.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You make... Lotus petal, it is round. So in one lotus petal you are conditioned. You cannot go.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: So far that hasn't been said, but that's... You can say that Bhārata-varṣa is a petal of the lotus. But I think if you look at the Bhāgavatam, it may... I'd have to see it, what it says. There's a statement that it may be the inner portion of the lotus. I don't know... [break] And what we do, it has to agree with the Bhāgavatam...

Prabhupāda: Lotus petal... There are so many petals. You are conditioned with one petal.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: That's... If that's the explanation, then it can be somehow adjusted.

Prabhupāda: You do not know what is going on outside.

Śatadhanya: There's so many round parts of a lotus petal.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Yes, that part...That could be adjusted. But there's a place within it, you know, the center part, there's no petals. In the middle of the lotus there's like a... I don't know how you call it, but a... It's a flattish area. They show Kṛṣṅa standing sometimes when they draw a picture of Kṛṣṅa on a lotus.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. But your place is in.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: That we accept.

Prabhupāda: That we have to hear from authority.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: We accept that. I'm just thinking...

Prabhupāda: Unless you are obstinate, you have to accept if you are convinced.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: We accept.

Prabhupāda: There are so many millions of stars and moons that we cannot go.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: As we are conditioned, as everyone is conditioned, our planetarium will have to show the actual facts.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That fact we have learned from Bhāgavatam.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: So, so far we have not drawn this fact correctly.

Prabhupāda: That is your inability. That is another thing.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Yeah, well that's why we're... That's the question that we've raised. This question that we've raised is due to that.

Prabhupāda: That is you are unable to, but the fact is that you are conditioned. You cannot go beyond that conditioned.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: That's accepted.

Prabhupāda: So we are also conditioned. But as far as possible we take description from Bhāgavata, try to. That is our... Suppose here is India, here is Los Angeles. You start from India, Los Angeles..., or India, you'll come to Los Angeles. And again return to India. Similarly you start from this again going.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Yes. That's possible if you can fly this way, underneath.

Prabhupāda: But where is the underneath?

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: See, Prabhupāda, we weren't asking that issue. That's not the question we were asking.

Prabhupāda: What is that issue?

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Well, what you've explained, if it's a lotus petal, then you could fly around it. That's all right. Then the answer is there. But if there's no lotus petal and it's simply flat, then it's a problem. That's a problem.

Prabhupāda: No, we don't say flat.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: We've pictured it like that. There's some defect in our picture. If you recall, there's a picture we drew...

Prabhupāda: So rectify it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Yeah, well how?

Prabhupāda: That is the explanation. Petal.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: See, it doesn't say petal anywhere in the Bhāgavatam. It doesn't say Bhārata-varṣa is a lotus petal.

Upendra: Neither does it say it's flat, though.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Well, I can get the Bhāgavatam right now if you allow me to. It doesn't say... I believe it says Jambūdvīpa is the centre part of the lotus, and there aren't petals in the center.

Upendra: It's a transcendental lotus flower.

Prabhupāda: You are prejudiced. That's all. If I can understand, why don't you understand? You are prejudiced.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Well I can understand if I accept it as... I'm only trying to think as the persons who are going to make this planetarium.

Prabhupāda: You are Western. You are prejudiced. That is reason. If I can understand why you don't...

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: I can understand blindly, but I don't want to do that.

Prabhupāda: I do not understand blindly.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: No.

Prabhupāda: Then.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: But I don't want to...

Prabhupāda: Still we differ. That means one of us is prejudiced.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Well it's not Your Divine Grace. [laughter] I mean, I'm sorry I have to take this thankless task to ask all these questions.

Prabhupāda: We are also prejudiced. It is written in the śāstra. Accept. In that sense we are also prejudiced.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Yeah, but we're correctly prejudiced.

Prabhupāda: Just like I take Kṛṣṅa's word. Bās, fact. You can say that you are prejudiced, you see. This is the book.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: That is a nice explanation, the petals.

Prabhupāda: Everyone is prejudiced. But who is rightly prejudiced, who is wrongly prejudiced—that is the...

Upendra: [indistinct comments with Tamāla Kṛṣṅa]

Prabhupāda: That is everywhere. Just like materialistic person will think, "Brainwash. These rascals, they have given all up material enjoyment, and after some phantasmagoria they sacrifice everything. Brainwash." And we are thinking, "Oh, these rascals, got this human form of body, he did not understand what is spiritual life." Both of them—he is rascal and he is rascal. This is going on. Yā niśā sarva-bhūtānāṁ tasyāṁ jāgarti saṁyamī [Bg 2.69].

[What is night for all beings is the time of awakening for the self-controlled; and the time of awakening for all beings is night for the introspective sage.]

Is it not? They say, "Brainwash. Unnecessarily they've sacrificed everything." And we say that he got the human form and unnecessarily he is working like cats and...

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Both are saying the same thing. Obviously.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now who is correct? Who will decide? I accuse you; you accuse me. But who is correct? Who will decide? That is śāstra. There is no question of argument. That is called pratiṣṭhā. You will never come to any conclusion by arguing. I think you are wrong; you think I am wrong. Somebody must decide, judge. And that is śāstra.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Supposing they say...

Prabhupāda: They say, we are saying so many things. In the court there are two parties. I say something, another party says. The judge is there. He has now decision.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Then they'll ask for the verse to prove it, and we must quote the correct śloka to substantiate our claim.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That the judge gives. Judges according to law book. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [Muṅḍaka Upaniṣad 1.2.12].

[To understand these things properly, one must humbly approach, with firewood in hand, a spiritual master who is learned in the Vedas and firmly devoted to the Absolute Truth.]

So we have to approach the right person who can give the judgment. What is their answer about this, that by chemical combination they cannot produce life? Still why they are insisting?

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: They are rascals.

Prabhupāda: Then what is the value of rascal's statement?

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: No value. Lunatic asylum.

Prabhupāda: Why if one is settled up that he's a rascal, we should not hear him. And why not? He has not gone to the moon. They are insisting, "Yes, we have gone," by false propaganda. Why the one who makes false propaganda and one who says nonsense, we have to believe? Immediately, whatever he says, reject. There's no argument. You have proved yourself rascal, so we don't accept any statement. What do you think?

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Well I'm just trying to think of the description of the Jambūdvīpa.

Prabhupāda: Whatever you say. But be aware you are rascal.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: But we have the practical task of...

Prabhupāda: No test.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: No—task.

Prabhupāda: No test. Mother says "Here is your father." That's all. Finish. You cannot test. Then you are rascal.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Not test. I said...

Prabhupāda: No, these things cannot be tested.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: No, I'm not saying...

Prabhupāda: Mother says, "Here is your father." That's all. Finish. No test. No question. That is foolishness.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: I was using the word "task." That to... Well, I'll have to bring in Bhakti-prema Swami. Maybe he can speak better. I'm not able to explain. But according to the description in the Bhāgavatam, everything that we've read, it is not petals. So let's... I don't know. On one hand you are asking us to follow the...

Prabhupāda: Bhāgavatam, one portion may not be exactly like... Just like if you are in the midst of the petal, you cannot understand it is petal. You see it is flat. You have shown in the map, every point so many miles. So that petal, middle portion, you can take it flat. It is not flat. It is curved. Whatever conception you make, that is defective. Rascals. First of all you have to understand this. So don't make it like this, like this, like this, like... Whatever it is said, that is all right. Therefore Kṛṣṅa said aśraddadhānāḥ.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Faithless.

Prabhupāda: No faith. Faithless. We have challenged, by chemical combination make a small egg, sparrow's egg, and produce it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: They can't do anything.

Prabhupāda: Then what is the value of your experiment? And still they are saying. This one point will kill them. Why do they not take this challenge? Huh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: They're rascals. There's no other answer. Only a rascal will go on maintaining that we can create life, and they never have.

Prabhupāda: And they are getting Nobel Prize. Just see. Such rascals. And we say on the authority of Bhagavad-gītā, apareyam. This is inferior and that is superior. So how you can make superior with inferior ingredients?

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Impossible. Without superior touch the inferior cannot have any life.

Prabhupāda: That's a fact. They're seeing every moment.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Everything has movement. If it's matter it only moves because of some superior force, living force, pushing it or entering it or something.

Prabhupāda: The superior energy is utilizing inferior energy for His purpose. You are utilizing this inferior, the lump of matter, for serving my purpose. That is superior energy. It cannot use me for its purpose.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: It has no purpose.

Prabhupāda: No. I can use it for my purpose. Therefore I am superior. [aside:] Come on.

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it's about three o'clock now.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Shall we go? [indistinct]

Tamāla Kṛṣṅa: I may have to go for that... I told Bhakti-prema Mahārāja I would meet him at three.

Prabhupāda: Go on. [end]