Śrīla Prabhupāda Speaks Out

“Kṛṣṅa Consciousness Is Real Science”

Here we continue an exchange between His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda and the poet Allen Ginsberg. It took place on May 12, 1969, in Columbus, Ohio.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṅa consciousness is not a bluff. It is real science, real authority. One simply has to understand it. That’s all. Therefore, in Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is said, kṛṣṅa yei bhaje sei baḍa catura: Unless one is very, very intelligent, he cannot come to Kṛṣṅa consciousness. He must be very intelligent. So if we find one or two intelligent persons . . . Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārāḥ sahasraśaḥ: One moon is sufficient to eradicate all darkness. There is no need of millions of stars. Kṛṣṅa consciousness is so beautiful. You call any intelligent person, and we are prepared to convince him. Any intelligent person. He must be a little intelligent. That’s all.

Allen Ginsberg: Yes, but I’m not even convinced. I mean, everything you say is beautiful, but . . .

Śrīla Prabhupāda: No. You are a very intelligent boy. Why do you not think you are intelligent? You are a recognized poet; you are a popular poet. I take it that you are intelligent. You are first-class intelligent. You are chanting.

Allen Ginsberg: But for me the chanting is almost a physical body movement, rather than a . . .

Śrīla Prabhupāda: For now that may be, but your intelligence is sufficient. If this standard of intelligent men is what I get as my followers, that will be my good fortune. You see. Now, at least, I request you that you try to understand this Kṛṣṅa consciousness philosophy. It is not sentiment. It is not bluffing. It is not a money-making business.

Allen Ginsberg: No. Obviously not.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: You see? You know my activities from the very beginning. I came here single-handed. I chanted. That’s all. I never asked anybody for money.

Allen Ginsberg: That was never in question.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: I never said, “I’ll give you Kṛṣṅa consciousness for this or that.” No. So it is not a bluff. It is purely scientific. Transcendental science. So I want some American gentlemen to understand this.

Allen Ginsberg: Well, Howard [Prabhupāda's disciple Hayagrīva Dāsa] teaches at the university, and he understands.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes. So we want many Howards. [Chuckles.] Your country is so big.

Allen Ginsberg: Actually, what I was getting into . . . You were saying that Kṛṣṅa says, “So everything stands on My personality.” And then there was a twist there: “But I am . . .”—was it “empty”? Is that what you said before? Do you remember? Just about eight minutes ago, you concluded the analogy of the sun.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: The sun-god, the sun globe, and the sunshine.

Disciple: Kṛṣṅa says, “All things are depending on Me, but I am absent. I am not in them.”

Allen Ginsberg: Oh, oh. I guess that’s where I . . . “Everything is depending on Me, yet I am not in them.”

Śrīla Prabhupāda: “Everything is resting on Me. But I am not there.” For instance, this table is Kṛṣṅa. Without Kṛṣṅa it would have no existence. But at the same time, the table is not Kṛṣṅa. The pantheist will say, “Everything is God. Therefore, I worship this table.”

Allen Ginsberg: So, then, who is Kṛṣṅa?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṅa is Kṛṣṅa.

Allen Ginsberg: But if He’s not apprehensible by our senses . . .

Śrīla Prabhupāda: No. Why say He’s not apprehensible by our senses? As we said before, in a sense even this table is Kṛṣṅa. But at the same time—and this is the philosophy of Lord Caitanya: acintya-bhedābheda—this or any other thing and Kṛṣṅa are simultaneously one and different. That is very easy to understand. Suppose this table is gold. But this one gold thing is not the whole gold mine. There is a difference. Similarly, everything is Kṛṣṅa, but still, everything is different from Kṛṣṅa.

This principle of simultaneously one and different is explained in the Viṣṅu Purāṅa. Eka-deśa-sthitasyāgner jyotsnā vistāriṅī yathā/ parasya brahmaṅaḥ śaktis tatedam akhilaṁ jagat. In this verse we get the same idea that the Lord expands in the way of the sun-god, sun globe, and sunshine. The sun-god is situated in one place, and from that place blazing fire spreads its heat and light all over.

You can see this principle practically demonstrated in everyday life, also: the expansion of the sun’s heat and light all over the universe. We know that whatever we see within this material existence is depending on the sunlight, the sunshine. This statement is verifiable scientifically. Your electricity, your this, your that—whatever item you take—fundamentally it is sunshine. All these planets are moving, rotating, based on the sunshine.

If the sun’s heat were taken away, immediately the whole thing would be spoiled; therefore, everything is resting on the energy of the sun-god. But if you say, “Then let me search out the sun-god who is behind the sunshine,” to do that you will have to go there.

Disciple: As I think the Christians also say, God is more than His creation.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes. Certainly. This creation is only a part of the manifestation of His energy. Insignificant. That is explained in Bhagavad-gītā. Atha vā bahunaitena kiṁ jñātena tavārjuna/ viṣṭabhyāham idaṁ kṛtsnam ekāṁśena sthito jagat: “This whole material existence is simply a partial manifestation of My energy.” Kṛṣṅa says, “I have entered into this whole material creation, and it is a partial manifestation of My energy.”

For instance, what is this body of yours? This body is a manifestation of your energy. The living entity is put into the mother’s womb in the form of a seed, and his body expands. This body is expanding. But because you are limited, your body expands only so much. Three feet or six feet. That’s all. No more. You cannot expand more than that. This is a crude example.

But the Lord—He’s unlimited. So He’s expanding unlimitedly. Bṛhattvād bṛṅhaṅattvād iti brahma. Brahman means nothing is greater than Him, and nothing can expand like Him.

So the Vedic culture offers us all information—scientifically. We simply have to disseminate it. We have got totally authoritative scriptures, with full descriptions of the Lord and answers to every possible question. Everything is here. This is not blind following. It is not religious fanaticism. It is actually solid ground. One simply has to understand nicely. That’s all. And there is no difficulty. It is so simple.

Our initial recommendation is, Simply chant Hare Kṛṣṅa. If someone asks, “Aren’t these Sanskrit words?” that is not a problem. These are God’s names, and everyone is naturally attracted to chanting them. So what is the difficulty? Bring any other religious principle, and you won’t find any so easy as this. We don’t recommend anything ritualistic; that is not a very important thing. We are giving the main instruction for this age, saying, “Simply chant.”

Of course, at our temples we have a few ritualistic performances. They give us a little help in focusing our mind on the Lord’s name. That’s all. They help. But they are not required. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that all the strength and all the beauty, all the wisdom—everything is there in the name. Simply by chanting the name, we get all blessings, everything. Ritualistic performances assist us in hearing the name, but if somebody does not want our ritualistic performances, that is not an important thing. We simply recommend, “Please chant.” That’s all. For example, I requested you to chant. Not that I requested that you adopt our means. So this is what we are requesting. Let people chant—make an experiment. It is not a very difficult thing.

Allen Ginsberg: Well, the chanting is easy, the chanting is easy. That’s true.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes. Let people do that and not come to the ritualistic performances. Let them chant as far as possible and see the result. This is the easiest method of transcendental realization. And if you recommend that people chant Hare Kṛṣṅa, oh, that will be accepted by many.

Allen Ginsberg: No. You see, I recommend it quite a bit, but it isn’t accepted by very many.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: [Chuckles.] No, no. To that I say, You are an American, and you are a popular leader. You have got some voice. I am a foreigner, newly arrived, so who cares about me?